The Rings of Power Season 1 Episode 4 "The Great Wave"

[Kane52630]

​

 

[Persona]

Yes, I am ready for more Elrond and dwarves.

I even kind of missed Bronwyn and Theo last episode.

 

[Iceman]

Yes, I am ready for more Elrond and dwarves.

I even kind of missed Bronwyn and Theo last episode.

Yep, want to see all of those back again. Also really want the show’s overall plot lines to start taking shape.

 

[blackdragon6]

I know that people complain about this show not being faithful, but I think it's as faithful any Hollywood adaptation have any right being. Until y'all see something on the scale of World War Z in terms of bastardization THEN we can talk lol.

 

[Gothamsknight]

I know that people complain about this show not being faithful, but I think it's as faithful any Hollywood adaptation have any right being. Until y'all see something on the scale of World War Z in terms of bastardization THEN we can talk lol.

It is funny how much people let other things slide in comparison to this haha.

 

[InCali]

It is funny how much people let other things slide in comparison to this haha.

It may seem odd on the surface, but if you think about it, the same would result from any beloved book. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that a book WWZ (I honestly didn't know such a thing existed) isn't as popular as Tolkien's mythology and doesn't have the following that The Lord of the Rings does. Hence, the (in varying degrees) outrage.

Let me give you an example. Suppose a movie were to be made about the Bible (we don't really have to suppose) that had Jesus (a carpenter by trade) helping Noah build some ark and having John the Baptist healing Job even though God was testing his faith. IMMA go out on a limb and say that wouldn't go over very well with a lot of people and they wouldn't be happy if the show runners said "Hey, it's too hard to do" or "Look, this is meant to be entertaining so we made some changes". In this "version" of the 2nd age, we have Celebrimbor as a contemporary of someone (Elendil) who was born well over a thousand years after his death and Sauron not even declaring himself when Elendil was an adult.

Frankly, I don't see why someone would get worked up over either. Just call it a Tolkien or Bible knockoff or What if or whatever and tell people if they don't like it, don't watch it.

 

[Sithborg]

It may seem odd on the surface, but if you think about it, the same would result from any beloved book. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that a book WWZ (I honestly didn't know such a thing existed) isn't as popular as Tolkien's mythology and doesn't have the following that The Lord of the Rings does. Hence, the (in varying degrees) outrage.

Let me give you an example. Suppose a movie were to be made about the Bible (we don't really have to suppose) that had Jesus (a carpenter by trade) helping Noah build some ark and having John the Baptist healing Job even though God was testing his faith. IMMA go out on a limb and say that wouldn't go over very well with a lot of people and they wouldn't be happy if the show runners said "Hey, it's too hard to do" or "Look, this is meant to be entertaining so we made some changes". In this "version" of the 2nd age, we have Celebrimbor as a contemporary of someone (Elendil) who was born well over a thousand years after his death and Sauron not even declaring himself when Elendil was an adult.

Frankly, I don't see why someone would get worked up over either. Just call it a Tolkien or Bible knockoff or What if or whatever and tell people if they don't like it, don't watch it.

Not entirely sure the Bible is the best example. Which version is Tolkien's version? How many books have been left out. Where do all the Abrahamic religions fall in? Hell, don't people like to compare this to a modern mythology? Let me tell you something about actual mythology. There ain't just one version.

 

[Sithborg]

As for the episode itself, I enjoyed it. No Harfoots, sadly. The dwarves made up for it. The morgul blade, as I am thinking of it, is a great piece of evil weaponry. I wonder if they are implying some addictive effects, with the old man also apparently poking himself with it.

I do love the elf action bull**** they do. Grabbing the arrow before it hits Theo and then using it to kill an orc is fun fantasy bull**** that I am all in on.

I am liking what we see of Antoine so far. Makes for a nice named villain till we get Sauron.

The ending with Numenor was some nice uplifting bull**** that I enjoyed, even if it probably would have made more sense in a finale.

 

[InCali]

Not entirely sure the Bible is the best example. Which version is Tolkien's version? How many books have been left out. Where do all the Abrahamic religions fall in? Hell, don't people like to compare this to a modern mythology? Let me tell you something about actual mythology. There ain't just one version.

It’s a simple point. There are books that are popular and people tend to take offense when the stories are jumbled beyond recognition. There was no comparison intended beyond that.

As for the show itself, if people like it, that’s great. If they don’t, that’s fine too. It just isn’t the universe that Tolkien created.

 

[misjuevos]

are these episode threads spoiler or no spoilers?

 

[blackdragon6]

Let me give you an example. Suppose a movie were to be made about the Bible (we don't really have to suppose) that had Jesus (a carpenter by trade) helping Noah build some ark and having John the Baptist healing Job even though God was testing his faith. IMMA go out on a limb and say that wouldn't go over very well with a lot of people and they wouldn't be happy if the show runners said "Hey, it's too hard to do" or "Look, this is meant to be entertaining so we made some changes".

At least that scenario still somewhat resembles the Bible. What happened to WWZ was wholesale bastardization lol.

 

[blackdragon6]

As for the episode itself, I enjoyed it.

I did too, it gave me strong RPG vibes for some reason lol.

 

[Madam-Shogun]

World War Z was a victim of Paramount not realizing what they bought (most likely). So the first thing to go was all of the dark bleak geopolitical stuff, and the gore (which was 98% of the book). Rings of Power still looks very Tolkien-ish to me. WWZ was completely unrecognizable. Now let me be clear the original script by J. Michael Strazynski wasn't perfect, he did a lot of problematic things too when he re-did the Isreal chapter of the book. But at least his version was 60% accurate. The new writer that rewrote the script retained like 4% of the got damned the source material.

 

[InCali]

At least that scenario still somewhat resembles the Bible. What happened to WWZ was wholesale bastardization lol.

Yeah. I wouldn't know, but my point was a little different than that. The main point is that (I don't think anyway) WWZ is some beloved work of literature along the lines of LotR. What Hollywood does to certain writings is undeniable, but I was referring to the poster who said that people let other things slide in comparison to LotR and was trying to point out why there was a larger scale reaction to completely rewriting the events/timelines of the appendices relating to the 2nd age. A lot more people are familiar, and likely love, Tolkien's book than do fans of the WWZ book(s??).

 

[Boom]

are these episode threads spoiler or no spoilers?

I assume spoilers, as it's a discussion thread for the episode.

 

[misjuevos]

I assume spoilers, as it's a discussion thread for the episode.

just checking, thanks

 

[Sithborg]

Look, even just going by the movies, which is kind of where I am coming from, it is clear some time compression is happening.

Personally, I'm looking forward to more on Antoine. Haven't seen an evil Elf before.

 

[squeekness]

I assume spoilers, as it's a discussion thread for the episode.

Same. I try to use spoiler tags myself, but don't trust others to do so.

 

[Boom]

Spoiler

Adar mercy-killing the Orc was interesting. Are the showrunners running with the idea that orcs have souls?

The origin of the orcs and the reason for their inherently evil nature is something that Tolkien could never quite settle on, and it's still a topic of debate in the community. The Jackson films went with the idea that orcs used to be elves that had been tortured and corrupted by Morgoth. Tolkien had considered this possibility early on, but seemed to have completely abandoned it in his later years (he told Christopher point-blank "Orcs are not elves").

To make things even more complicated, Tolkien (being a Catholic) did not believe that souls could be "born" evil, nor did not believe that an entire race could be corrupted to such a point that evil becomes inherent to its nature. The simply work around to this is to make it so that orcs don't have souls. But then what are they? The Children of Ilúvatar (Elves and Men) have souls. The dwarves (Children of Aulë) were granted souls by Ilúvatar. So the orcs could not have been of these races.

In addition to this, Morgoth did not have the ability to create life (only corrupt it). But even if he had the ability to do so, it would have been exactly like what happened when Aulë first created the dwarves from stone. If Morgoth created the orcs from scratch, they would have essentially been automatons that were completely slave to his will. They would only be animated so long as Morgoth's thought and attention was upon them. But as we've seen in the books, orcs are capable of free will and often rebel against their masters or work in their own self interest. So Morgoth simply could not have created them like Aulë created the dwarves.

In my opinion, the most likely scenario is that orcs originally were some form of animal; like an ape. Morgoth captured them, and through his own evil devices he imbued them with higher knowledge, taught them speech, and re-shaped them physically to be mockeries of the Children of Ilúvatar.

Orcs/Origin

 

[henzINNIT]

Another enjoyable episode. Things are slowly lining up. Elrond, Durin and Disa scenes are always great.

Galadriel is sadly the weakest link so far. It's not the performance, it is solely in her characterization. I get that the writers wanted to give her an arc, but they have gone too hard on the 'head-strong warrior woman' angle. It doesn't feel right for a character of her age and status.

 

[InCali]

Another enjoyable episode. Things are slowly lining up. Elrond, Durin and Disa scenes are always great.

Galadriel is sadly the weakest link so far. It's not the performance, it is solely in her characterization. I get that the writers wanted to give her an arc, but they have gone too hard on the 'head-strong warrior woman' angle. It doesn't feel right for a character of her age and status.

It's not. I don't worry too much about it, though I wish they had just done this story with other names. I find it a little distracting when they put the name, for example, Galadriel on someone who was completely different soon after her arrival in Middle Earth in the 1st age (at the very latest). I mean, they aren't following the storyline and timeline of events (and often the events themselves) so I don't worry too much about the mischaracterization of the players.

 

[InCali]

Spoiler

Adar mercy-killing the Orc was interesting. Are the showrunners running with the idea that orcs have souls?

The origin of the orcs and the reason for their inherently evil nature is something that Tolkien could never quite settle on, and it's still a topic of debate in the community. The Jackson films went with the idea that orcs used to be elves that had been tortured and corrupted by Morgoth. Tolkien had considered this possibility early on, but seemed to have completely abandoned it in his later years (he told Christopher point-blank "Orcs are not elves").

To make things even more complicated, Tolkien (being a Catholic) did not believe that souls could be "born" evil, nor did not believe that an entire race could be corrupted to such a point that evil becomes inherent to its nature. The simply work around to this is to make it so that orcs don't have souls. But then what are they? The Children of Ilúvatar (Elves and Men) have souls. The dwarves (Children of Aulë) were granted souls by Ilúvatar. So the orcs could not have been of these races.

In addition to this, Morgoth did not have the ability to create life (only corrupt it). But even if he had the ability to do so, it would have been exactly like what happened when Aulë first created the dwarves from stone. If Morgoth created the orcs from scratch, they would have essentially been automatons that were completely slave to his will. They would only be animated so long as Morgoth's thought and attention was upon them. But as we've seen in the books, orcs are capable of free will and often rebel against their masters or work in their own self interest. So Morgoth simply could not have created them like Aulë created the dwarves.

In my opinion, the most likely scenario is that orcs originally were some form of animal; like an ape. Morgoth captured them, and through his own evil devices he imbued them with higher knowledge, taught them speech, and re-shaped them physically to be mockeries of the Children of Ilúvatar.

Orcs/Origin

Your spoiler is a good guess IMO.

 

[squeekness]

Spoiler

Adar mercy-killing the Orc was interesting. Are the showrunners running with the idea that orcs have souls?

The origin of the orcs and the reason for their inherently evil nature is something that Tolkien could never quite settle on, and it's still a topic of debate in the community. The Jackson films went with the idea that orcs used to be elves that had been tortured and corrupted by Morgoth. Tolkien had considered this possibility early on, but seemed to have completely abandoned it in his later years (he told Christopher point-blank "Orcs are not elves").

To make things even more complicated, Tolkien (being a Catholic) did not believe that souls could be "born" evil, nor did not believe that an entire race could be corrupted to such a point that evil becomes inherent to its nature. The simply work around to this is to make it so that orcs don't have souls. But then what are they? The Children of Ilúvatar (Elves and Men) have souls. The dwarves (Children of Aulë) were granted souls by Ilúvatar. So the orcs could not have been of these races.

In addition to this, Morgoth did not have the ability to create life (only corrupt it). But even if he had the ability to do so, it would have been exactly like what happened when Aulë first created the dwarves from stone. If Morgoth created the orcs from scratch, they would have essentially been automatons that were completely slave to his will. They would only be animated so long as Morgoth's thought and attention was upon them. But as we've seen in the books, orcs are capable of free will and often rebel against their masters or work in their own self interest. So Morgoth simply could not have created them like Aulë created the dwarves.

In my opinion, the most likely scenario is that orcs originally were some form of animal; like an ape. Morgoth captured them, and through his own evil devices he imbued them with higher knowledge, taught them speech, and re-shaped them physically to be mockeries of the Children of Ilúvatar.

Orcs/Origin

Sounds good to me, too.

 

[Albright]

Though the creepy old man said, that the fallen star has something to do with Saurons return, I‘m not sold that the Stranger is Sauron.
Rewatched the first episode: the meteor shows up right after the gates to Valinor are opened. I‘m 100% sure, the meteor was sent from Valinor, because Sauron will return.

 

[KaijuDude1992]

I liked the episodes myself, but I'm ready for this show to kick into high gear already. I can be really patient when it comes to shows like this taking their time with the world building and developing characters, but it honestly feels like not much has actually happened since the first episode eventhough there is stuff happening.

I found myself zoning out a bit at times while watching this episode outside of the stuff with Durin, Elrond and Disa and the stuff with the Orcs which has become more interesting than I thought it would be. Hopefully, these last couple of episodes are much better pacing wise and end this show on a high note.