The Taliban

[Siby]

To get back on topic, I don't understand why the US or any "civilized" country would deal with the Taliban. These barbarians aren't like the Saudis who we don't like but have stuff we need and are somewhat stable. The Taliban are nothing but thugs who kill and oppress their own people in addition to hating the West.

The problem with Afghanistan and the Middle-East is not them but the mold we are trying to put them into. These people have a tribal mentality. From this tribal mentality, lack of education, and access to resources they cannot understand concepts of a centralized government. There is no infrastructure in those countries to manage all the regions from a central place. Look at Hamid Karzai, the guy is a joke, a patsy who is stealing money and fattening the coffers of his family and tribesman. While the rest of the Afghani people are destitute.

What they need are strong local municipalities which are tied to a central government to be a one nation. The local governments can provide stability, and address the common needs of the people in their region. Once that is established then years down the line you can start to think in larger ideas of as a nation. You can't do that if most of the population is worried about getting killed, and finding food to eat.

 

[Kelly]

To get back on topic, I don't understand why the US or any "civilized" country would deal with the Taliban. These barbarians aren't like the Saudis who we don't like but have stuff we need and are somewhat stable. The Taliban are nothing but thugs who kill and oppress their own people in addition to hating the West.

The problem with Afghanistan and the Middle-East is not them but the mold we are trying to put them into. These people have a tribal mentality. From this tribal mentality, lack of education, and access to resources they cannot understand concepts of a centralized government. There is no infrastructure in those countries to manage all the regions from a central place. Look at Hamid Karzai, the guy is a joke, a patsy who is stealing money and fattening the coffers of his family and tribesman. While the rest of the Afghani people are destitute.

What they need are strong local municipalities which are tied to a central government to be a one nation. The local governments can provide stability, and address the common needs of the people in their region. Once that is established then years down the line you can start to think in larger ideas of as a nation. You can't do that if most of the population is worried about getting killed, and finding food to eat.

Well, many of the Taliban are not Afghan, they are from Pakistan. As far as the Saudis, they are one of only three countries that saw the Taliban government in Afghanistan as legit. Not sure they are any less barbaric, they just have oil.

You will never have a strong central government in Afghanistan because the ultimate power lies in the hands of the tribal leaders. The people hold a much higher allegiance to their tribe than they do to their country.

 

[Siby]

Well, many of the Taliban are not Afghan, they are from Pakistan. As far as the Saudis, they are one of only three countries that saw the Taliban government in Afghanistan as legit. Not sure they are any less barbaric, they just have oil.

You will never have a strong central government in Afghanistan because the ultimate power lies in the hands of the tribal leaders. The people hold a much higher allegiance to their tribe than they do to their country.

Yup, those points are the same as the ones I was making. I can't tell if you were agreeing with them or took the opposite meaning.

 

[Kelly]

Your post did read as if it was the Afghans who are Taliban were barbaric, and actually they are a very hospitable people, and most of the Taliban are not Afghan, it is those that have come in over the decades to rape their country that are the barbarians.

Also, it seemed that you were putting the Saudis above the Taliban, when in my view, they are very much like them.

 

[Midnyte_Sun]

So when it's a "failed state" it doesn't count, only true Sctosmen, Muslim minorities being persecuted as well (oh the shock) eliminates it, and saying that one religion is CURRENTLY the most violent one judged by numbers and impact is somehow "generalizing 1.5 million" people... yea you know what, I'm so outta here.

So the religion, not the people or institutions that create them are to blame? That's like blaming the US constitution for lynching black people. Again, you're really looking at this with very limited scope.

When institutions are failing, and the people are not being educated; nobody trusts the government, there are many unemployed this allows for mob mentality; In the US, if there was a preacher, preaching to his followers to seek death to Jews, Muslims, and others; while training them in warfare all under the nose of the local authorities...how long before Homeland security stops them, kids are taken out of their Sunday school, and the whole church is shut down?

That doesn't happen in Pakistan or Iraq. The institutions are inherently mismanaged, corrupt, and have agendas. Religious leaders in Arab monarchies are controlled strictly by the monarchy. Their edicts and rules fall in line with their policies. Almost all those nations that have persecution problems have failed or broken systems of government. For example, female literacy rates in Sudan, Egypt and Iraq are less than 50 percent, while five Arab states (Jordan, Egypt, Iraq, Morocco and Palestinians) cannot even crack the top 80 of the United Nations’ Global Development Index according to Fareed Zakariya. (Source


In Afghanistan, the warlords control the Mullahs, and they also train students to join the armed militia for jobs. In Afghanistan, lands are completely decimated by poison and destruction of water systems (from as far back as the Soviet invasion), their owners are now living in squalid refugee camps for 30 years with no prospect for work...will send their children to these 'private' schools where they are fed and taught how to read. Unfortunately, they are brainwashed by militant religious folk who don't take kindly to criticism. In fact, they kill other religious leaders and activists with impunity. They also threaten parents of these children. They don't follow Islam, they follow a very narrow interpretation of scripture that was formulated specifically to create suicide bombers for warfare. They are told that Christians are inherently evil, that they rape their women folk, and torture their old folk. They are told they have come to commit genocide and every Afghan that works for them has been touched by Satan himself. If you tell them otherwise, they will kill you for your criticism and group with you with the enemy. "You're either with us or against us mentality." They don't listen to reason.

If you're a student who has gone to this school since 4 years old and have had virtually no access to the outside world for 20 years, you're not going to change your mind! If that Mullah tells you to go find new recruits, he will give you the means to go and preach on the street, at local bazaars, at other educational institutions, and nobody can stop them for fear of being killed. The authorities know better to intervene because they are also targeted! They mostly target young children, sometimes even kidnapping them.

Islam has very strict edicts when it comes self defense, protection of property, land, and preservation of life. There are even edicts to protect trees during times of war. Most of what you see on Christian Anti-islam pages are out of context BS taught to Christians to make them fear Muslims. I can't tell you how many times I've seen local pastors here say something completely wrong about Islam.

When used properly, Islam does teach:

1) Respect for National Laws, especially if you are a guest of another nation.
2) NO compulsion, no forced conversion
3) Only defend when attacked
4) Protection of innocent people, property, and environment during warfare
5) Suicide is a sin
6) Protection of Churches, Synagogues from destruction
7) No Robbery or Vandalism
8) Respect for all Religious material from all the Abrahamic Faiths, and considering Christians and Jews as "People of the Divine Books." (Jesus is mentioned more in the Koran than Mohammed)
9) Feeding of the Poor and giving of charity is mandatory (those Arab sheikhs and Afghan warlords didn't get the memo)
10) Religious Fatwas have to cleared by a council of Scholars and only apply to a local region, and approval is not easy. Firebrand Mullahs who have bigger constituents (ie. Ayatollah) issuing fatwas does not make it compulsory to follow by all Muslims, it has to be approved by all leading figures. Shia's don't recognize Sunni Fatwas, and vice versa. It's a very lengthy process.

Basically everything that Americans and Europeans think they know about Islam has been guided through fear-mongering and Islamophobia. For instance 90% of all Terrorist attacks on US Soil have been done by people who were NOT Muslim.

Source: 90% Terrorist Attacks on US Soil NOT by Muslims

--

 

[Thundercrack85]

It's a chicken, egg thing. Generally, a religion will reflect the people, and vice versa.

Christianity in the Medieval days was... Medieval. Christianity in Norway today, is as lad back as the people.

Islam during the height of the Islamic Golden Age, was the most enlightened religion.

Still, attitudes in predominately Muslim countries, are rather... incompatible with those of Western countries. And certainly vice versa. In many Muslim countries they have guides for non-Muslims on how to behave and dress.

 

[Midnyte_Sun]

Your post did read as if it was the Afghans who are Taliban were barbaric, and actually they are a very hospitable people, and most of the Taliban are not Afghan, it is those that have come in over the decades to rape their country that are the barbarians.

Also, it seemed that you were putting the Saudis above the Taliban, when in my view, they are very much like them.

There are actually different kinds of Taliban and armed criminal groups lumped with Taliban, but aren't really allied with them. They consist of:

1) Local resistance fighters, they fight for paychecks; some even work part time with the local government in the day.

2) Hardcore Taliban, most of them are now in their 40s and 50s, and are commanders who help coordinate attacks and help funnel money and supplies. They also do assassinations, espionage, and promote/facilitate Green on Blue' attacks. Their local bases are in rural areas, satellite sister towns in ethnic Pashtun areas of Pakistan (Quetta, Waziristan, Swat, Bajaur) were they basically have shadow governments. They consist of Pashtuns from Afghanistan and Pakistan, split by a false border b/w the two countries, known as the Durand Line.

3) Arabs, they are facilitators, supply money, weapons, and teaching material for creation of IEDs. They rarely fight.

4) Chechens, Uzbeks, Tajiks, Uighurs (Chinese), Pakistanis. They are hardened guerilla fighters and religious zealots. They train and coordinate with local Taliban; They also train fighters to fight in their own countries. Most of them are based in Pakistan.

5) Criminal Gang Networks. They don't work for the Taliban, but they do business with them; they extort money, kidnappings, money laundering, drug trade, and assassinations. They commit many crimes that are sometimes falsely attributed to the Taliban.

6) ISI aka the Pakistan's CIA. They facilitate, house, negotiate with, and protect the Taliban leadership for Pakistan's strategic depth policy with Afghanistan and to counter India's growing influence in Afghanistan. They most likely protected Osama bin Laden as well.

 

[Kelly]

So the religion, not the people or institutions that create them are to blame? That's like blaming the US constitution for lynching black people. Again, you're really looking at this with very limited scope.

When institutions are failing, and the people are not being educated; nobody trusts the government, there are many unemployed this allows for mob mentality; In the US, if there was a preacher, preaching to his followers to seek death to Jews, Muslims, and others; while training them in warfare all under the nose of the local authorities...how long before Homeland security stops them, kids are taken out of their Sunday school, and the whole church is shut down?

That doesn't happen in Pakistan or Iraq. The institutions are inherently mismanaged, corrupt, and have agendas. Religious leaders in Arab monarchies are controlled strictly by the monarchy. Their edicts and rules fall in line with their policies. Almost all those nations that have persecution problems have failed or broken systems of government. For example, female literacy rates in Sudan, Egypt and Iraq are less than 50 percent, while five Arab states (Jordan, Egypt, Iraq, Morocco and Palestinians) cannot even crack the top 80 of the United Nations’ Global Development Index according to Fareed Zakariya. (Source


In Afghanistan, the warlords control the Mullahs, and they also train students to join the armed militia for jobs. In Afghanistan, lands are completely decimated by poison and destruction of water systems (from as far back as the Soviet invasion), their owners are now living in squalid refugee camps for 30 years with no prospect for work...will send their children to these 'private' schools where they are fed and taught how to read. Unfortunately, they are brainwashed by militant religious folk who don't take kindly to criticism. In fact, they kill other religious leaders and activists with impunity. They also threaten parents of these children. They don't follow Islam, they follow a very narrow interpretation of scripture that was formulated specifically to create suicide bombers for warfare. They are told that Christians are inherently evil, that they rape their women folk, and torture their old folk. They are told they have come to commit genocide and every Afghan that works for them has been touched by Satan himself. If you tell them otherwise, they will kill you for your criticism and group with you with the enemy. "You're either with us or against us mentality." They don't listen to reason.

If you're a student who has gone to this school since 4 years old and have had virtually no access to the outside world for 20 years, you're not going to change your mind! If that Mullah tells you to go find new recruits, he will give you the means to go and preach on the street, at local bazaars, at other educational institutions, and nobody can stop them for fear of being killed. The authorities know better to intervene because they are also targeted! They mostly target young children, sometimes even kidnapping them.

Islam has very strict edicts when it comes self defense, protection of property, land, and preservation of life. There are even edicts to protect trees during times of war. Most of what you see on Christian Anti-islam pages are out of context BS taught to Christians to make them fear Muslims. I can't tell you how many times I've seen local pastors here say something completely wrong about Islam.

When used properly, Islam does teach:

1) Respect for National Laws, especially if you are a guest of another nation.
2) NO compulsion, no forced conversion
3) Only defend when attacked
4) Protection of innocent people, property, and environment during warfare
5) Suicide is a sin
6) Protection of Churches, Synagogues from destruction
7) No Robbery or Vandalism
8) Respect for all Religious material from all the Abrahamic Faiths, and considering Christians and Jews as "People of the Divine Books." (Jesus is mentioned more in the Koran than Mohammed)
9) Feeding of the Poor and giving of charity is mandatory (those Arab sheikhs and Afghan warlords didn't get the memo)
10) Religious Fatwas have to cleared by a council of Scholars and only apply to a local region, and approval is not easy. Firebrand Mullahs who have bigger constituents (ie. Ayatollah) issuing fatwas does not make it compulsory to follow by all Muslims, it has to be approved by all leading figures. Shia's don't recognize Sunni Fatwas, and vice versa. It's a very lengthy process.

Basically everything that Americans and Europeans think they know about Islam has been guided through fear-mongering and Islamophobia. For instance 90% of all Terrorist attacks on US Soil have been done by people who were NOT Muslim.

Source: 90% Terrorist Attacks on US Soil NOT by Muslims

--

Well, hmmmm.... all of this is "since 9/11". I guess if you have killed 3,000+ innocent people, that country probably has a "little better" security since "that incident" therefore there probably would be "fewer attempts", "more attempts thwarted". Not really sure what your point is...

I do happen to believe that those that perpetrate these terrorist acts are no more Muslim than those who are a part of WBC are Christians...doesn't change the fact that The Taliban, of which this thread is about...have done, and are doing horrible things in the countries of Afghanistan and Pakistan.

I also agree that many Christian pastors here in the US and probably around the world are teaching basically wrong doctrine about Islam, and I'm sure that happens going the other direction. These pastors I guess have no clue that both religions are Abrahamic Religions, and both have many similarities. I find that with many of my students in my classes every year.

 

[Midnyte_Sun]

Well, hmmmm.... all of this is "since 9/11". I guess if you have killed 3,000+ innocent people, that country probably has a "little better" security since "that incident" therefore there probably would be "fewer attempts", "more attempts thwarted". Not really sure what your point is...

Well if you scroll to the bottom of the page, there is a link and it has some shocking statistics:

"Based on our review of the approximately 2,400 terrorist attacks on U.S. soil contained within the START database, we determined that approximately 60 were carried out by Muslims.

In other words, approximately 2.5% of all terrorist attacks on U.S. soil between 1970 and 2012 were carried out by Muslims.* "

I do happen to believe that those that perpetrate these terrorist acts are no more Muslim than those who are a part of WBC are Christians...doesn't change the fact that The Taliban, of which this thread is about...have done, and are doing horrible things in the countries of Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Very much so. Just speculating here, but if America had the same demographics, lawlessness, and poverty as Pakistan, the WBC would be one of many groups that would take advantage of the destitute and illiterate masses.

 

[Thundercrack85]

What's the casualty rate though?

How many deaths?

 

[chamber-music]

Lots of the problems in the middle east have also been caused by the Saudis v Irani proxy war they have been having for decades. They have been fighting over who gets to be the big daddy in the region.

 

[justpassinby]

So the religion, not the people or institutions that create them are to blame? That's like blaming the US constitution for lynching black people. Again, you're really looking at this with very limited scope.

When institutions are failing, and the people are not being educated; nobody trusts the government, there are many unemployed this allows for mob mentality; In the US, if there was a preacher, preaching to his followers to seek death to Jews, Muslims, and others; while training them in warfare all under the nose of the local authorities...how long before Homeland security stops them, kids are taken out of their Sunday school, and the whole church is shut down?

That doesn't happen in Pakistan or Iraq. The institutions are inherently mismanaged, corrupt, and have agendas. Religious leaders in Arab monarchies are controlled strictly by the monarchy. Their edicts and rules fall in line with their policies. Almost all those nations that have persecution problems have failed or broken systems of government. For example, female literacy rates in Sudan, Egypt and Iraq are less than 50 percent, while five Arab states (Jordan, Egypt, Iraq, Morocco and Palestinians) cannot even crack the top 80 of the United Nations’ Global Development Index according to Fareed Zakariya. (Source


In Afghanistan, the warlords control the Mullahs, and they also train students to join the armed militia for jobs. In Afghanistan, lands are completely decimated by poison and destruction of water systems (from as far back as the Soviet invasion), their owners are now living in squalid refugee camps for 30 years with no prospect for work...will send their children to these 'private' schools where they are fed and taught how to read. Unfortunately, they are brainwashed by militant religious folk who don't take kindly to criticism. In fact, they kill other religious leaders and activists with impunity. They also threaten parents of these children. They don't follow Islam, they follow a very narrow interpretation of scripture that was formulated specifically to create suicide bombers for warfare. They are told that Christians are inherently evil, that they rape their women folk, and torture their old folk. They are told they have come to commit genocide and every Afghan that works for them has been touched by Satan himself. If you tell them otherwise, they will kill you for your criticism and group with you with the enemy. "You're either with us or against us mentality." They don't listen to reason.

If you're a student who has gone to this school since 4 years old and have had virtually no access to the outside world for 20 years, you're not going to change your mind! If that Mullah tells you to go find new recruits, he will give you the means to go and preach on the street, at local bazaars, at other educational institutions, and nobody can stop them for fear of being killed. The authorities know better to intervene because they are also targeted! They mostly target young children, sometimes even kidnapping them.

Islam has very strict edicts when it comes self defense, protection of property, land, and preservation of life. There are even edicts to protect trees during times of war. Most of what you see on Christian Anti-islam pages are out of context BS taught to Christians to make them fear Muslims. I can't tell you how many times I've seen local pastors here say something completely wrong about Islam.

When used properly, Islam does teach:

1) Respect for National Laws, especially if you are a guest of another nation.
2) NO compulsion, no forced conversion
3) Only defend when attacked
4) Protection of innocent people, property, and environment during warfare
5) Suicide is a sin
6) Protection of Churches, Synagogues from destruction
7) No Robbery or Vandalism
8) Respect for all Religious material from all the Abrahamic Faiths, and considering Christians and Jews as "People of the Divine Books." (Jesus is mentioned more in the Koran than Mohammed)
9) Feeding of the Poor and giving of charity is mandatory (those Arab sheikhs and Afghan warlords didn't get the memo)
10) Religious Fatwas have to cleared by a council of Scholars and only apply to a local region, and approval is not easy. Firebrand Mullahs who have bigger constituents (ie. Ayatollah) issuing fatwas does not make it compulsory to follow by all Muslims, it has to be approved by all leading figures. Shia's don't recognize Sunni Fatwas, and vice versa. It's a very lengthy process.

Basically everything that Americans and Europeans think they know about Islam has been guided through fear-mongering and Islamophobia. For instance 90% of all Terrorist attacks on US Soil have been done by people who were NOT Muslim.

Source: 90% Terrorist Attacks on US Soil NOT by Muslims

--

Hi, I didn't say anything about those bad people behaving this way because they're Muslims, merely that a lot of people labelled (due to labelling themselves) as such are doing that.
It was a very simple "demographics" statement, not a claim about what's true to the Quran and what isn't.

I don't care if tomorrow a group emerges saying that Jesus said them to slay all Mexicans (no he didn't; reconstructionists arguing in favor of loopholes in the NT, however, might get more points in the necessarily following true Scotsman debate that I'm NOT getting into here) - as long as they or their sheep really believe that, they'll still be "Christians" in the overall scheme of things.

Again, just peeked into the thread and left a very general statement in response to a "you'd be offended if they said about Christians" defense - thanks for your time though

 

[Pink Ranger]

Lots of the problems in the middle east have also been caused by the Saudis v Irani proxy war they have been having for decades. They have been fighting over who gets to be the big daddy in the region.

It's ironic that if Iran ever became a functioning democracy governed by the will of its people (it's amazing how large a plurality of Iranians are non-Muslim Persians, as opposed to the Western perception of them being Muslim Arabs) Saudi Arabia would be opposed to them even more, and Iran would become the closest thing Israel would have to an ally in their region.

 

[Cosmic]

The Taliban and Nazi Germany are different in so many ways...the comparison doesn't quite stand up.

I want negotiation with the Taliban. In the end, their ideology will be defeated by people like Malala and her many supporters...not by military power. In the meantime, they have pretty simple and narrow goals and desires. They don't want to rule the world or nuke America. They've also shown a willingness at certain points, over the years, to talk about ceasing hostilities. We should withdraw our military from Afghanistan and instead use diplomacy to negotiate a peaceful future for the people who live there.

 

[Midnyte_Sun]

Hi, I didn't say anything about those bad people behaving this way because they're Muslims, merely that a lot of people labelled (due to labelling themselves) as such are doing that.
It was a very simple "demographics" statement, not a claim about what's true to the Quran and what isn't.

I don't care if tomorrow a group emerges saying that Jesus said them to slay all Mexicans (no he didn't; reconstructionists arguing in favor of loopholes in the NT, however, might get more points in the necessarily following true Scotsman debate that I'm NOT getting into here) - as long as they or their sheep really believe that, they'll still be "Christians" in the overall scheme of things.

Again, just peeked into the thread and left a very general statement in response to a "you'd be offended if they said about Christians" defense - thanks for your time though

JPB,

I get your point; although I believe general statements tend to oversimplify a much more complicated problem that really deserves more understanding. Especially when general statements tend to get quoted and spread for the purposes of promoting unwarranted distrust and fear.

 

[Two-Face=Badass]

Can you tell me what good the Roman Catholic Church did for Rome? Basically for 1000 years after they took over they did everything in their power to try stop forward progress and adopted many questionable strategies to make sure their religion was the one and only religion in the places they controlled.

Now one can easily argue that the Roman Empire had many questionable practices before the RC Church ever took over but their wasn't the level of religious fervor before the RC took over and the Roman Empire was a much more tolerant place to live when it come to person beliefs. As for the Byzantine Empire, I specifically was talking about the RC Church so I don't see how that applies(since the Byzantine empire sort of adopted it's own religious beliefs based on christianity)

What the Roman Catholic Church did for Rome is irrelevant, given that Rome was already well on its way to collapsing when Constantine adopted it as a state religion. So that point is irrelevant, since you began by saying that the Church caused the collapsed, which any professional scholar will tell you is simply not true. Now if one was to take the long view, then again you are incorrect. The Catholic Church had, and has, many faults, but to argue that it tried to prevent progress is intellectually fraudulent. The printing press was strongly encouraged by most sections of the Church as a way to disseminate information and religion, and when the Spanish were conquering South America the Church was one of the only voices of dissent against the horrid treatment of natives. Foremost however, remains the philosophical and scientific developments pushed by Catholic philosophers and natural philosophers (proto-scientists), who viewed their faith in memoirs as a reason for their pursuit of knowledge much like the English Enlightenment gave similar reasons in regards to their Protestant faith.

Now, I am not arguing for the Catholic Church as a force for good and peace and equality. It, as a hierarchical organisation, is not for it. I am also not a Catholic myself, nor even Christian, so do not accuse me or organisational bias. Nor should you attempt to bring up an argument over the 'Dark Ages,' given that the period has long been generalised as one of little progress and backwardness, when in fact it contained a great deal of development that put Western society on the path it followed for many centuries after, with elements still today. You have, in arguing that the Church did nothing for progress, and even bringing up the disingenuous point that it tried to prevent progress, adopted an ideological viewpoint ill fit for understanding the nuances of history and society. The Church was forward thinking in a variety of ways and helped centralise power in the fractured space left behind by the ruins of the Empire which it had done nothing to destroy, but it was also by our standards retrograde in many other ways. Rome had slaves, it has its persecutions, and while certainly it had more religious tolerance this is not the only bar for judging equality.

 

[Steyin]

You do realize that the US has funded, armed, and helped to create them right? So is the US evil? We are evil from the perspective. If the US or other countries that are "good" why don't they do something to stop the "evil"?

I don't like using terms such as "good" and "evil" because of their subjectivity and are generally meaningless. The concepts behind the two are based on religious teachings which once again limits the scope of the labels.

To call the Taliban, US, Nazis "evil" is pointless. It is better served to judge any person, country, or group's actions by what we as a human society find acceptable. The world fought Nazis Germany because their actions were deemed to not be beneficial to the stability of the human society as a whole. (Yes, I am aware that there were a lot of other political interests involved in the background)

As others have said, the Taliban is just one example in a long line of religious extremism. We have groups in the US that disgracefully protest at funerals of fallen soldiers. We have groups that bomb abortion clinics. The warlords in Africa are committing atrocities beyond the understanding of most people. Israel is slowly choking the Palestinian people.

But the "good" world does nothing about it. The "good" world only gets involved to serve its interest. There is no "good" or "evil" until actions are labeled as such in an arbitrary manner.

The world must come together and say enough is enough and act to put heinous actions down as it did in WWI/II, as we came together to eradicate a global disease (small pox). We should do the same by coming together to stamp out the Taliban and similar forms of religious extremism.

That is why I am such a proponent of education. I really believe that education creates stability in society and advances the sociological mindset from terms such as "good" and "evil".

This guy gets it.

 

[Thundercrack85]

He takes a very long time to say very little. Being condescending while he's at it.

 

[justpassinby]

"Education", by itself, is nothing but knowledge and skills, and learning about / to recognize problems and how to battle them.
It says nothing about whether you should also care about solving others' problems unless that also helps your own. It says nothing about whether you should use that knowledge and those skills in order to "boost stability" or grab advantages for yourself at the cost of others.

And if you promote education as a way towards global stability, your education doesn't tell you to care about this global stability instead of just your own and your selected monkey sphere's.

All of those impulses come from MORALITY, and EMPATHY. Good and evil might be cheesy terms, but that's what it's about regardless - and denouncing them while going on about social stability and helping other people is quite ironic to say the least.
So no, doesn't really "get it" - just tries to sound cool.

Sorry I should've stopped long ago, but just

In a way, he's just doing the same thing as the Joker from Dark Knight, and the adorkable fanboys writing "and you know what? he's right" in every youtube video (only to an ultimately positive end rather than destructive) - because groups deemed as "good" aren't all that good actually (argued, of course, while relying on moral notions), that must mean there is no such thing as good. Everyone's just serving their own interests... controlling their little worlds... has the WBC within its borders... take your pick.
And then pretentious people start gathering around and remarking "hear hear, tis the truth! we have cracked the red pill here, unlike you people still snoozing in your comfortable delusion hmph hmph"... grrrrrr.
Sorry again, realize this isn't a soapbox philosophy thread here, but this is just such a ****ing pet peeve of mine.

 

[SV Fan]

What the Roman Catholic Church did for Rome is irrelevant

Well they didn't move the empire forward in any positive way from 300-1500ish. It basically took a scientific revolution coupled with people separating from the church in the 1500s to change things for the good. Their is a reason the time Under the RC Church was referred to the Dark Ages.

given that Rome was already well on its way to collapsing when Constantine adopted it as a state religion. So that point is irrelevant, since you began by saying that the Church caused the collapsed

I stated that while the Roman Empire was on it's way to collapse for 100-200 years up to that point the RC Church was the final nail in the coffin before the Dark Ages.

Nor should you attempt to bring up an argument over the 'Dark Ages,' given that the period has long been generalised as one of little progress and backwardness, when in fact it contained a great deal of development that put Western society on the path it followed for many centuries after, with elements still today.

The Bulk of scientific progress up till the Renaissance was either in the Middle East or Asia(ie 2 non RC Church areas)

 

[Kelly]

IMO, the problem was not necessarily "Christianity" but the fact that the priests were the only ones reading the Bible...the common folks certainly were not since it was only in one language, and up until the printing press only in the hands of a few elite. Once the masses were able to read and begin to interpret, and follow as they saw it....yeah, the church was a negative far more than a positive. As long as people have freedom to interpret, follow, not follow, whatever religion -- non-religion they want is a positive as far as I'm concerned. Up until the printing press few knew what was even in the Bible until Martin Luther (pre-craziness) stood up and said what you are being taught is a bunch of hogwash that is only being preached to keep the peasants dumb and under the thumb of the church. THAT TO ME, is the Dark Ages, not simply because Christianity was coming into play in Europe.

As far as I'm concerned Science and my beliefs in God go hand in hand. I have no problem with the Renaissance, and the Age of Reason. ALL are great periods in history as far as I'm concerned as a Christian with strong beliefs.

 

[Thundercrack85]

It's hard to say if the Church really made those days better or worse in the long run. Ironically, without much of the infrastructure established by the Church (schools, libraries, etc), the social movements like the Renaissance, and Enlightenment might have taken even longer to arise.

So, while it was an evil, it may have been a necessary evil.

 

[zeroapoc]

By my observations, most peaceful religion seems to be Buddhism or Hinduism

Hinduism seems to get a pass even with the whole philosophy of castes and untouchables.

 

[Kelly]

As far as the Taliban, it seems people only see the religious affiliation. IMO, they are far more a political faction than a religious one. They are a group of people that want to oppress women among other things, and simply use religion as their excuse.

Also seems this thread has turned into what is wrong with the religions of the world...I guess that is the easy way to discuss this.

 

[Thundercrack85]

The Taliban is both a religious and political group.

Though they are rather exceptional, in their fanaticism. That's what I find interesting.

Psychologically, it's a fascinating group. It's one thing for one group to hate another group, but these people hate their own mothers, daughters, and sisters in a way that just defies evolutionary common sense.

Even Nazis loved their wives and daughters.