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Villains we need to see in this Batman solo franchise

You're just not really articulating the reason very well lol.

You can say the same about Joker, Two-Face, Catwoman, really just about anyone...

And why can't a sequel spend a lot of time with Victor?
 
BTAS is coming to HBO Max if it hasn't already, so hopefully Crave has it here in Canada. I haven't seen it in so long either, need to rewatch all the classics
 
You're just not really articulating the reason very well lol.

You can say the same about Joker, Two-Face, Catwoman, really just about anyone...

And why can't a sequel spend a lot of time with Victor?
It can. But i don’t expect Reeves to suddenly make the sequels MORE from the perspective of the villains when we start getting Joker, Two-Face etc. That’s what Matt said about TDK that it’s great but it’s really all about Joker. He didn’t say it was from Joker’s POV mind you, but he said it’s all about the Joker. And that’s not what he’s doing. So when he gets to those villains why would he do what he criticized from Nolan? It’s not even a criticism, it’s just a fact.

Freeze is an anti hero in my mind. Hell sometimes even a hero and Batman trying to stop him almost makes Batman unlikable in that story. IMO he’s better suited for a solo movie where you can follow his journey completely. And nobody has yet to convince me that you can make a realistic Freeze. No matter what kind of modern science is explained to me, it still feels too much.
 
I just disagree that you need to make it from Freeze's perspective to work! That doesn't make sense to me! Killmonger is only in 22 minutes out of Black Panther's 135. That's just 6%!

And maybe he'd change it because that's what he did in this movie? Who knows? Feels silly to speculate about that and cut off possibilities.
 
We’re not getting a sci-fi character anyway so don’t worry :cwink:
 
Two-Face does seem like a foregone conclusion for this series, and I’d love to see Reeves’ take him on.

I think there’s a way into Freeze if you present his origin as something Batman is trying to unravel, and keep the element that Batman is both trying to help Victor while stopping him from hurting people.

Pretty much this. I mean, sure, its basically copying Heart of Ice as a movie, but Heart of Ice is awesome, copying and expanding it is an excellent idea.
 
That’s another reason why I can’t see Reeves doing it.
 
Batman and Robin was 25 years ago. Get over it!!!
 
That’s not what I meant. I mean the Heart of Ice adaption.
 
And again that was 25 years ago and the only thing Schumacher took is the part about his dying wife. I’m sure Reeves version of Mr Freeze would be pretty different than a pun obsessed Austrian bodybuilder who wants to freeze the entire world.

The Heart of Ice dying wife motivation is just part of Freeze’s character now. It’s like saying we shouldn’t do The Riddler because we’ve already seen him send riddles to Bruce Wayne or we shouldn’t do Catwoman because we’ve already seen her be a sultry thief who clashes with Batman.
 
And again that was 25 years ago and the only thing Schumacher took is the part about his dying wife. I’m sure Reeves version of Mr Freeze would be pretty different than a pun obsessed Austrian bodybuilder who wants to freeze the entire world.

The Heart of Ice dying wife motivation is just part of Freeze’s character now. It’s like saying we shouldn’t do The Riddler because we’ve already seen him send riddles to Bruce Wayne or we shouldn’t do Catwoman because we’ve already seen her be a sultry thief who clashes with Batman.
I was not talking about Schumacher’s movie at all. I also never said Reeves should drop the dying wife.
 
Ok take me through it then. Meta says Heart of Ice is so strong it could be good to expand on it, I say even Schumacher knew it. You reply that that’s another reason why Reeves wouldn’t do it. Any one who’s knows context would think that comment means that since Schumacher already took inspiration from it Reeves would avoid it. Ok, you say you mean the adaptation. The way the conversation is going means we’re talking about Schumacher adapting it for his film. Heart of Ice is about Freeze saving his ailing wife. That’s what Schumacher took from it. If Reeves where adapating it, that’s what he would take from it.

You keep moving the goal posts and we’re going to be playing all over the earth.
 
“That’s not what I meant. I meant the Heart of Ice adaption”. I was talking about just copying Heart of Ice and doing that on the big screen with maybe some expansion because it would be a 2 hour movie not a 22 minute short. So “expanding” Heart of Ice goes without saying but IMO there is nothing creative about taking an existing story (hitting all the main beats of Heart of Ice while dressing it up a little different once you flesh out certain areas) and bringing it to life. Not that I don’t want to see it (it would work for a solo movie) but I personally don’t find it creative or original. It would be like adapting a graphic novel like Watchmen or Year One or Hush. One single story for the big screen. It’s not very creative or original.

I hope Reeves wouldn’t do that. I want surprises right down to the core of the story and plot. Something new. He’s not just doing Ego and expanding on it. Nolan wasn’t just doing Knightfall. Snyder didn’t just do DKR.
 
DKR has all the plot points of Knightfall. Bane arrives, defeats Batman and breaks his back, Batman gets his mojo back and defeats Bane. It’s a lose adaptation, but it is just dressing it up differently and expanding it in the direction Nolan wants.

I guarantee an adaptation of Heart of Ice would bare as much as much resemblance as DKR has to Knightfall.
 
I get what Shauner is saying. As gratifying as it would be for us as fans to see the elements of Heart of Ice brought to life in a movie, there'd be no real surprises or anything truly original.
What if Reeves was able to re-conceptualize Freeze? Maybe he moves beyond the Nora Fries angle and introduces a whole new origin, maybe even playing upon our expectation to really shock us.
 
I think Mister Freeze can work for Reeves take, but some things would need to be changed. Imo Freeze is very nonsensical character, where most aspects of him are a part of him because they've always been a part of him and that's good enough for most comics. Heart of Ice made Mister Freeze the iconic character he is today, but he really wasn't much before that, just a mad scientist with a freeze ray. Here's a little breakdown of what I consider the heart of the character and a couple ideas for how those could be reworked for Matt Reeves' neo-noir Batman universe.

His Cold Disease
After an accident in his cryogenic lab, he can no longer survive in temperatures above freezing.

Change I would make
What happens when exposed to extreme cold? Hypothermia. A real "cold disease". Surviving extreme hypothermia can result in lost limbs, noses and ears, and permanent damage to the skin. A huge part of Freezes character is feeling like he is a monster from his condition. This is a natural way to achieve that. This change also helps with the next iconic and bizarre aspect of Freeze...

His Refrigerated Exoskeleton Suit
I get Freeze needs the suit in the comics to keep him cold, but why is it also an armored exoskeleton? Did he build it to commit crimes?

Change I would make

He lost a limb or two from the hypothermia, and his muscles atrophied. So maybe Bruce uses Wayne Technologies to help Mr. Freeze recover, giving him cutting edge prosthetics to help repair his weakened body. I wouldn't go crazy with this and make him have superhuman strength or anything, but it could enhance his overall look, and add mechanical sounds to his movement that could be really menacing in the right context.

The other part of his suit, the refrigerated part, isn't necessary with this take on the character, but we still need Mister Freeze to look like Mister Freeze, and have a logical reason for him to look like that. Instead of his suit keeping him cold, what's far more straightforward for a villain who uses cold as a weapon, is a suit that keeps him warm. The main visual of his costume should be a cryo lab suit. Something a cryogenics scientist would absolutely have.
Cryogenic-Protective-Suit-Liquid-Nitrogen-Protective-Suit-For-Lab.jpg

Freeze Gun
You can't have Mr. Freeze without a freeze ray. The main change I would want to see here is removing the gun aspect of it. Although it isn't necessarily realistic, what I think would feel more realistic, is if the device worked visually in the same manor as the machine that went awry during Freeze's accident. So instead of a gun that shoots a concentrated beam of cold, I imagine something more akin to a briefcase like device that emits a massive cloud of sub zero fog. This would really explain his need for the suit as well.

Motivation
Instead of having Freeze committing robberies to fund his research for a cure for Nora, I would have him just straight up think she's dead, and instead his targeting of Gothcorp is entirely about revenge. At least at first.

The plot would be something like:

  • Freeze is a cryogenic scientist working for a small technology company, who's obsessed with perfecting cryogenic technology as fast as possible so he can put his beloved wife Nora on ice before she succumbs to her yet-to-be-cured disease. He gets the technology ready for human trials, but for Nora to be put on ice requires her to sign papers that ostensibly make her living remains the property of the company.
  • Gothcorp sees the potential in Freezes work so they hire a corporate saboteur who goes to Freeze's lab and traps him, hoping to make it look like Freeze died of a lab accident. This results in Freeze's frostbite, and causes the company to go bankrupt where Gothcorp quickly buys them out, making Nora's body property of Gothcorp.
  • When Freeze survives the accident he is furious, thinks he's a monster, and goes on a rampage against the Gothcorp executives, and anyone involved in the buyout.
  • He learns Nora is alive, just being kept hidden from him. He feels extreme remorse for what he's done, making him more willing to consider accepting help from Bruce, who would essentially find a way Nora and the cryogenics company from Gothcorp through some Batman-centric blackmail or something (maybe tracking down the original hired gun who hurt Freeze?). Movie ends with Freeze sitting happy in prison, knowing that Nora is being cared for and that Wayne is putting a ton of money into researching a cure for her disease. upload_2021-2-6_11-34-13.png

Sorry if I've basically posted this all here before XD
 
DKR has all the plot points of Knightfall. Bane arrives, defeats Batman and breaks his back, Batman gets his mojo back and defeats Bane. It’s a lose adaptation, but it is just dressing it up differently and expanding it in the direction Nolan wants.

I guarantee an adaptation of Heart of Ice would bare as much as much resemblance as DKR has to Knightfall.
Rises was just as much DKR, No Man’s Land as it was Knightfall. Throw in some of The Cult for good measure.

If you’re gonna take some of Heart of Ice (not all of it) and mix it with a couple of other stories then it becomes his own tale. It’s like Tarantino remixing a bunch of stories. It’s also more exciting for the fan watching because it’s not just a 3 year waiting game to see the story they know so well delivered with real actors. I say leave that for the animated comic adaptations. I wanna see a filmmaker’s take.
 
Using Heart of Ice as a foundation is what we're talking about.

I don't even know how you'd adapt a 22 min episode in a 2 hour film. It would have to be radically different.
 
I wouldn't mind seeing another shot at Killer Croc where he's presented more along the lines of Lee Bermejo's renderings of him as more of a big dude with a skin condition and filed teeth and less of a mutant crocodile man. Could be good muscle for Penguin as he ascends the ranks of the Gotham underworld.
 
I wouldn't mind seeing another shot at Killer Croc where he's presented more along the lines of Lee Bermejo's renderings of him as more of a big dude with a skin condition and filed teeth and less of a mutant crocodile man. Could be good muscle for Penguin as he ascends the ranks of the Gotham underworld.
Yup. There could be a rumour that is probably b.s but it makes its rounds among the criminal underworld that this Waylon Jones dude is a cannibal. Just a throw away line/story that adds to how dangerous this guy could be. THIS is the guy that Penguin has for a bodyguard?? Yikes.

“Heyyy Billy Two Fingaz! You know how Killah Croc got dat name? The sick bastad’ is some sorta cannibal..”

“F**k outta here wit that nonsense...he ain’t eatin nooobody. Talkin foolish again wit yuh whacky stories”

“I’m seeeeerious! I heard it from a reliable sauce’. Croc is more than Penguin’s new muscle. Listen to me when I speak Billy....HE BIT A DUDE’S ARM OFF and took it wit’ em!”

“...soo he prolly grabbed the goon’s leftie with his rightie and brought it to his boss as a souvenir. Again..makin yuh mountains outta molehills..”

“He HAD no boss. He was runnin solo at da time. Sicko chewed the punk’s arm off and saved da rest for later. Wanna hear the other part??”

“Another time loose lips...Boss Zucco wants this done by 11, no excuses. Give yuh mouth a rest a bit. What’s next? You think he’s responsible for the three fingaz I’m missin?”
 

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