hippie_hunter
The King is Back!
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Hello....I am called hippie hunter for crying out loudHippie Hunter i don't really see why you got so much againts Thor being a "hippie" >_>
Hello....I am called hippie hunter for crying out loudHippie Hunter i don't really see why you got so much againts Thor being a "hippie" >_>
I would take any sympathetic villain over an "extreme" villain like Carnage, any day.
I think there is place for both. I just think the bad guys of the world are mostly not that nuanced.
For example: I live in Hungary, and there's a right wing group murdering gypsies (out largest minority) in increasing numbers in last few weeks. They exterminate whole families, shoot children in the face with shotguns in the middle of the night, stuff like that - not that far from where I actually live. The majority of our police force is working on capturing these animals. These are what BAD GUYS are like. And sure, there must be some misunderstood poor souls among the criminals, but the majority are animals. My roommates brother is sitting in jail right now, for killing a guy who talked trash to him and his friends. If superpowers were real, most supervillains would behave in this fashion. As primitive thugs. Not the sufferrers of some poetic tragedy.
Doc Ock had decades to turn his life around, yet remained a murderer and a villain. When he declares how he just wants to help and how the evil world treats him it comes over as pathetic, fake and tacky. So far removed from a real character, that it ruins my enjoyment. If he was just looking for excuses, sure I can buy that, but I felt I was supposed to feel for him. That's what I really hated in ASM 600. There are only so many "phases" a character can go through, before it becomes ridiculous.
A good Carnage story (like the first one) is not interesting because Carnage himself is interesting. It's interesting to see character's reactions to a brute like that. I'm actually happy they've killed him, because that's the logical conclusion of a character like that. Kill him, before he kills again. It took a decade too long though. Spidey and co letting him live was just as stupid.
I love Magneto, but If every villain was like him, he wouldn't be unique. That doesn't stop most writers from trying to revamp everybody and their mother to be this gray, tragic character. It works for Magneto, it works for Lex Luthor, it doesn't work for The Vulture or Sandman.
I say keep them varied. Have the thugs and have a few characters like Magneto. But the Ultimateverse has the right balance I think. characters like Ultimate Venom, Osborn, The Colonel even the first few appearnances of Doc Ock are interesting enough without coming over as fake comic book ********. That's what I liked in the line.
Hello....I am called hippie hunter for crying out loud
Ultimate Magneto is another vastly inferior villain, he went from a complex anti Villain to one dimensional mustache twirling monster with no real motive in the UU and contradictary back story. He was lame before, but Ultimatum made him even worse, where he seemed to try to destroy the world for no reason other then he was obessed with the story of Noah's Ark. What, did he get high one night, read the bible and liked the story of Noah's Ark so much that he decided to play it out in the real world? Then he decides he was wrong because Jean Grey reveals mutants were created by humans (which was stupid in the first place.)
At least he is consistent, no now I'm good, now I'm bad, now I'm good, now I'm bad again nonsense.
I agree about Doom though, pretty bad ultimazation. If it was up to me, I would've went a completely different route with him. Not giving him Latveria in the second Arc. Make him the equal of Richards, who's willing to give the government whatever it wants and eventually take control of it in secret. Or something bettern not thought up on the spot by a drunk forum member
Ultimate Doom is younger, still has time to become the magnificent bastard 616 Doom is. But no, the fanboys whined about the goat legs, so they made him an exact replica in his second appearance. way to stick to your stones Marvel.
Spidey's Ultimate rogues are way more badass than their 616 counterparts (well except carnage i guess). Remember when ultimate Kingpin crushed that guys head with his bare hands? DAMN. Ult. Norman was just scary as hell, and ult. doc ock is a complete psychopath.
I cant speak for all the other UU comics but in the case of Ultimate Spider-Man hes only 15/16 they have to tone down the villains otherwise he would either get his ass handed to him every time or quiet possibly get killed. if we switched his villains with say the ASM villains he would not survive.
For the most part, most Marvel super-villains ARE pretty boring characters anyway. Those who aren't basically motivated by greed(the vast majority) such as Dr Doom, Magneto are motivated by some aberrant desire for power(admittedly Magneto wants to conquer the world to make it safe for mutantkind) or formerly some other kind of ideological viewpoint( Nazism for The Red Skull, Soviet style Communism for the Titanium Man or Crimson Dynamo).
I think I've mentioned this before, but: Villainy, to me, is always a little 2D. There are few villains with a back story that justifies their long term viewpoint, and those that do are close-minded to alternative actions besides mass genocide or other violent expressions. But that's what makes them interesting. I always liked Jack Kirby's angle on Doom's scarring; he envisioned it to be the smallest little blemish imaginable, but in Doom's mind to be the justification behind his eternal hatred of Reed. People sometimes forget the most evil men in history were motivated by the dumbest, pettiest reasons you could think of. Vanity has been one, and over the years racism, Manifest Destiny, religion, greed, power plays, and even spurned love have been added to the list. The difference between superhero comics and reality is that said fictional villains are usually smart or strong enough to kick your glutes straight off of your body, whereas in real life similar madmen are usually pathetic in all categories without an army or a gun backing them up.
As for the Ultimate Universe specifically, it's always been concerned with realism. Obviously, the creators love certain aspects of Marvel comics and have to forgo complete realism for the more out-there material (Ex: No matter how you handle Peter Parker obtaining his powers, it still involves pseudoscience). But for the most part, heroes and villains get as gray around the edges as they do outside of the serialized format. But not all of them are base. Take the Liberators, from The Ultimates 2. Can you really say other nations would not be justified if they set up their own response to the Ultimates, given how shady S.H.I.E.L.D. is in that universe? Ultimate Red Skull just got introduced, and I really doubt his history with the US government was peaches and cream until some unjustified villainy on his part later on.
Yeah, it has some bad examples. Venom and Carnage immediately come to mind. Hulk could be another, depending on how you see it. Heck, if you see the whole team as villainous, you could present the Ultimates. As others have mentioned, Millar was trying to make this big political anti-hero statement with them that has been hit-and-miss. But for the most part, I haven't noticed a big difference in the ratio between successful villain portrayal and the failures that crop up between the two universes. For every Geldoff, there's an Ultimate Doc Ock. For every Romulus, a Doctor Doom. They may not be as fantastical as Stan, Jack, and Steve's originals, but Ultimate Universe villains are appealing in their own way.
I think I've mentioned this before, but: Villainy, to me, is always a little 2D. There are few villains with a back story that justifies their long term viewpoint, and those that do are close-minded to alternative actions besides mass genocide or other violent expressions. But that's what makes them interesting. I always liked Jack Kirby's angle on Doom's scarring; he envisioned it to be the smallest little blemish imaginable, but in Doom's mind to be the justification behind his eternal hatred of Reed. People sometimes forget the most evil men in history were motivated by the dumbest, pettiest reasons you could think of. Vanity has been one, and over the years racism, Manifest Destiny, religion, greed, power plays, and even spurned love have been added to the list. The difference between superhero comics and reality is that said fictional villains are usually smart or strong enough to kick your glutes straight off of your body, whereas in real life similar madmen are usually pathetic in all categories without an army or a gun backing them up.
As for the Ultimate Universe specifically, it's always been concerned with realism. Obviously, the creators love certain aspects of Marvel comics and have to forgo complete realism for the more out-there material (Ex: No matter how you handle Peter Parker obtaining his powers, it still involves pseudoscience). But for the most part, heroes and villains get as gray around the edges as they do outside of the serialized format. But not all of them are base. Take the Liberators, from The Ultimates 2. Can you really say other nations would not be justified if they set up their own response to the Ultimates, given how shady S.H.I.E.L.D. is in that universe? Ultimate Red Skull just got introduced, and I really doubt his history with the US government was peaches and cream until some unjustified villainy on his part later on.
Yeah, it has some bad examples. Venom and Carnage immediately come to mind. Hulk could be another, depending on how you see it. Heck, if you see the whole team as villainous, you could present the Ultimates. As others have mentioned, Millar was trying to make this big political anti-hero statement with them that has been hit-and-miss. But for the most part, I haven't noticed a big difference in the ratio between successful villain portrayal and the failures that crop up between the two universes. For every Geldoff, there's an Ultimate Doc Ock. For every Romulus, a Doctor Doom. They may not be as fantastical as Stan, Jack, and Steve's originals, but Ultimate Universe villains are appealing in their own way.
Ultimate Abomination and Crimson Dynamo were willing to commit mass murder at the drop of a hat, how is that sympathetic?
How is Ultimate Magneto a gray villain?
Franklin Richards said:Good stuff.
But I thought John Byrne fleshed out that tidbit.
Magically? He was building up to them dating for like 20 or 30 issues.hahaha nothing personal Dark Victory...
USP was kinda like the Roman Empire. it was good for a while, before it went to hell, clones started running around, and kitty pride (yes kitty. i know she's an x-man. don't ask me) was magically peter parker's girlfriend.
where's ultimate power pack when you need it?
I think I've mentioned this before, but: Villainy, to me, is always a little 2D. There are few villains with a back story that justifies their long term viewpoint, and those that do are close-minded to alternative actions besides mass genocide or other violent expressions. But that's what makes them interesting. I always liked Jack Kirby's angle on Doom's scarring; he envisioned it to be the smallest little blemish imaginable, but in Doom's mind to be the justification behind his eternal hatred of Reed. People sometimes forget the most evil men in history were motivated by the dumbest, pettiest reasons you could think of. Vanity has been one, and over the years racism, Manifest Destiny, religion, greed, power plays, and even spurned love have been added to the list. The difference between superhero comics and reality is that said fictional villains are usually smart or strong enough to kick your glutes straight off of your body, whereas in real life similar madmen are usually pathetic in all categories without an army or a gun backing them up.
As for the Ultimate Universe specifically, it's always been concerned with realism. Obviously, the creators love certain aspects of Marvel comics and have to forgo complete realism for the more out-there material (Ex: No matter how you handle Peter Parker obtaining his powers, it still involves pseudoscience). But for the most part, heroes and villains get as gray around the edges as they do outside of the serialized format. But not all of them are base. Take the Liberators, from The Ultimates 2. Can you really say other nations would not be justified if they set up their own response to the Ultimates, given how shady S.H.I.E.L.D. is in that universe? Ultimate Red Skull just got introduced, and I really doubt his history with the US government was peaches and cream until some unjustified villainy on his part later on.
Yeah, it has some bad examples. Venom and Carnage immediately come to mind. Hulk could be another, depending on how you see it. Heck, if you see the whole team as villainous, you could present the Ultimates. As others have mentioned, Millar was trying to make this big political anti-hero statement with them that has been hit-and-miss. But for the most part, I haven't noticed a big difference in the ratio between successful villain portrayal and the failures that crop up between the two universes. For every Geldoff, there's an Ultimate Doc Ock. For every Romulus, a Doctor Doom. They may not be as fantastical as Stan, Jack, and Steve's originals, but Ultimate Universe villains are appealing in their own way.
Hello....I am called hippie hunter for crying out loud
Harry was sympathetic, as was Venom and even the Scorpion.Why are the villains in the Ultimate Universe so boring? Most of the villains have no interesting motive or back story or personality, most of them are one dimensional characters that twirl mustaches.
Why are there so few sympathetic villains in the ultimate Universe? Ultimate magneto is a one dimensional villain might as well have a mustache to twirl, ultimate doom seems to have none of the nobility 616 Doom has and even ultimate Curt Connors came across as kinda user in the carnage arc.
I mean didn't they do what Bruce Timm did with Mr. freeze and take some B-list villain and make him more sympathetic. I mean how has bendis retooled Electro, Sandman or Vulture in the UU, they are all flat characters, who share the same personality, greedy stupid thugs. They are all inferior to their 616 counterparts. When couldn't Bendis have made one of those sympathetic, instead of another greedy thug.
Harry was sympathetic, as was Venom and even the Scorpion.
But at the same time, I thought people were tired of sympatheic villains and wanted villains that are actually bad people. I know I am in the movies. I want a character that's like the Joker, rotten to the core. The way the Kingpin was in the Ultimate comics. But even then they threw in the whole story of his wife. I want that rotten to the core villain. Norman was the closest.
Venom was a misogynistic creep who hit on a 15 year old, he deserved a bad fate and Scorpion was throw away character, I don't even care about him. The only one I agree with is Harry Osborn and he's dead, so who has taken his place when it comes to sympathetic Ultimate villains?
Besides shouldn't there be a balance, if every villain is rotten to core, what comes them different from each other in terms of personality? Not much, personality wise how are Ultimate Electro, Vulture and Sandman different from each?
Also does Ultimate Magneto being a complete monster make him better then 616 Magneto? I don't think so, 616 Magneto is a morally complex character, while Ultimate Magneto is a one dimensional mustache twirling villain who eats puppies for no reason. Ultimate Magneto is a dull, one dimensional character.
There's the thing if all your villains are rotten to the core, then they don't have sympathetic villains to be contrasted against and the rotten to core act becomes old hat. You need both types villains in a fictional universe to make things interesting and the UU lacks one type of villains, so really the villains become tried because there is no interesting moral contrasts you can draw with them.
me said:Villainy, to me, has always been a little 2D...
snipped paragraph
Have you seen ultimate Red Skull. he's Cap's son, but SHIELD confiscated him? so he's evil and the Red Skull. it probably won't make sense, but Millar's name is on it so it will sell. People complaining about Loeb's Ultimates don't realize Millar's Ultimates(which was much better than Loeb's) only sold because of the names attached.
Have you seen ultimate Red Skull. he's Cap's son, but SHIELD confiscated him? so he's evil and the Red Skull. it probably won't make sense, but Millar's name is on it so it will sell. People complaining about Loeb's Ultimates don't realize Millar's Ultimates(which was much better than Loeb's) only sold because of the names attached.