Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. Season 1 Episode 20 "Nothing Personal"

[afan]

Do you really think that's why people disagree with you? Because they want Ward to turn back to good and live happily every after with Skye?

No, we know Ward is a bad guy, we just don't think it's at all in line with Skye's character to sit and watch someone she loved only a few hours ago die in agony. I mean, really, having watched the show up to now, is that honestly how you think Skye would behave? She's barely had time to process it, she's being given seconds to make a decision, so she chooses the one with less immediate consequences.

I think you have a very simplistic, black-and-white view of the world. All bad guys are evil and must die! Anyone who disagrees is weak! Must be nice...

That's exactly what was suggested yesterday by several posters.

 

[Alex_Kidd]

The only way for Ward is the grave.
Give us a good Deathlok and a evil Ward, trough the end

 

[Mysteryman]

If he dies, he just comes back later to redeem himself.

 

[Dark Raven]

The only thing I want Ward redeeming is a coupon.

 

[R_Hythlodeus]

So given what we know TAHITI was intended for, who wants to guess at the acronym now?

The Avengers Health Insurance & Trauma Initiative

 

[Ant-manic]

Has Marvel something similar like DC's Suicide Squad? If they do, make Ward a team member.

like someone else mentioned, they have the Thunderbolts. don't take this too seriously but this side subject reminded me of something; why Ward's backstory sounds so familiar. Avengers villain, Erik Josten (Smuggler, Power Man, Goliath, Atlas), started out much the same way as Ward. he 3 siblings (older brother, younger brother, younger sister). his sister was hit by a car after chasing her brother on her bike. Erik eventually ran away and joined the army. he made his living as a professional mercenary; ended up being part of Baron Zemo's (the elder Zemo) private army. then he augmented similarly to Wonder Man. this was to make him more useful to the Masters of Evil. yadda yadda yadda, he was a giant villain named Goliath for awhile; until following Helmut Zemo as one of the Thunderbolts.

anyways, there are several similarities between the characters. they both have that following orders mentality and were, originally, motivated about guilt (something they did to a sibling). there's also the asgardian link. Josten was the Enchantress' boytoy for awhile.

http://marvel.wikia.com/Lindy_Josten_(Earth-616)

 

[hoy-small-fry]

The only thing I want Ward redeeming is a coupon.

 

[afan]

Just curious and for the sake of discussion......
To those who feel Skye's "pardon" of Ward's death sentence is justifiable I pose this hypothetical question.........is there any action on Ward's part that would give cause to Skye just letting him die?
Obviously the murder of Koenig and the betrayal does not pass muster, but if Ward had also murdered May as I believe he intended to do would that then give Skye cause, or no matter what the circumstance would Skye be incapable of allowing Ward or any "someone" to die?

 

[Whiskey Tango]

Do you really think that's why people disagree with you? Because they want Ward to turn back to good and live happily every after with Skye?

No, we know Ward is a bad guy, we just don't think it's at all in line with Skye's character to sit and watch someone she loved only a few hours ago die in agony. I mean, really, having watched the show up to now, is that honestly how you think Skye would behave? She's barely had time to process it, she's being given seconds to make a decision, so she chooses the one with less immediate consequences.

I think you have a very simplistic, black-and-white view of the world. All bad guys are evil and must die! Anyone who disagrees is weak! Must be nice...

Here's how this would have played out if she let Ward die.

Garrett: "Good job Skye, you just let a man die in one of the most agonizingly painful way possible so that you could keep the information secret. Even a guy like me think's that that's cold. Luckily, we have other ways of getting the information out of you, and we will sooner or later. So congratulations, you just let someone die horribly for absolutely nothing. We'll still get what we want from you in due time."

wow, this sentence is morally f***ed up

most people would disagree with you

Agreed. His enthusiasm for it is starting to get a little uncomfortable.

That's exactly what was suggested yesterday by several posters.

I guess you're going to have to find those posts because I don't recall seeing anyone propose that.

 

[afan]

Angel, Spike, Darla, Faith, etc all say hello. Mass murderers going through painful redemption arcs, but ultimately becoming good is a Whedon trademark. And as for that scene, no one can stand there and watch another human being (let alone someone that they cared deeply about only hours before) writhing on the floor in agony and about to die a horrifically painful death and not feel something. Only a sociopath could be that cold-hearted.

Since you asked......

Whiskey Tango....you gave this one a ......and you later mentioned Darth Vader as an example of the possibility of buying Ward as a redeemable character.

There were other posts using a Game of Thrones character's redemption to support the possibility that Ward is also a redeemable character.

 

[marcvader]

Just curious and for the sake of discussion......
To those who feel Skye's "pardon" of Ward's death sentence is justifiable I pose this hypothetical question.........is there any action on Ward's part that would give cause to Skye just letting him die?
Obviously the murder of Koenig and the betrayal does not pass muster, but if Ward had also murdered May as I believe he intended to do would that then give Skye cause, or no matter what the circumstance would Skye be incapable of allowing Ward or any "someone" to die?

Why would you use the word "pardon". I think "an inability to kill someone you know" is more apropo.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

I used Vader as an example of people letting a similar situation slide while condemning Ward for far less heinous acts. That's a bit hypocritical and a far cry from hoping the showrunners turn Ward around.

It's not even about Ward. We're contesting the idea that Skye is some kind of failure because she couldn't sit back and simply watch him die. It's two separate things. Why is that so hard to understand?

 

[JLMHodge]

I think it would've been extremely out of character for Skye to let Ward die like that. It just wouldn't really make any sense, in my opinion. I much prefer Ward this way, too.

 

[R_Hythlodeus]

people are pretty bloodthirsty around here it seems.

 

[Shikamaru]

Just curious and for the sake of discussion......
To those who feel Skye's "pardon" of Ward's death sentence is justifiable I pose this hypothetical question.........is there any action on Ward's part that would give cause to Skye just letting him die?
Obviously the murder of Koenig and the betrayal does not pass muster, but if Ward had also murdered May as I believe he intended to do would that then give Skye cause, or no matter what the circumstance would Skye be incapable of allowing Ward or any "someone" to die?

Who says we feel what she did is justifiable? I said it's very realistic and in-character for Skye, not that she took the absolutely perfect action.

It's pretty obvious that decision might haunt her conscience if Ward survives Season 1 and going around killing more people.

 

[Dr. Evil]

Had Brett Dalton signed on for another TV pilot? If he has, I think he gets killed off.

 

[afan]

Who says we feel what she did is justifiable? I said it's very realistic and in-character for Skye, not that she took the absolutely perfect action.

It's pretty obvious that decision might haunt her conscience if Ward survives Season 1 and going around killing more people.

I mean justifiable by the story as it is laid out, and or by her character....I believe by your response you hold that her character justifies her decision to save Ward.

Marcvader fill in whatever term you deem fitting. Pardon was used tongue in cheek to illustrate that Ward has committed capital crimes, crimes which may ultimately be resolved by his death.

Whiskey Tango, I don't hold that Skye is a failure...rather that this, and the previous episode, set her up to just let Ward die....she despises him.....she believes Ward to be a Nazi seriel killer (her own words) and the thought that she once cared for him made her want to vomit. I feel the episodes set her up to let Ward die,(of course that would never happen as it would be the end of Ward as a very respectable villain) but I can certainly buy the argument that her character is incapable of letting anyone die, hence........

.......Back to my hypothetical question....If Ward had killed, oh say, Fitz or Simmons or both would Skye behave the same, or would her character be incapable in any scenario of letting Ward die? Furthermore could she kill Ward or anyone in any setting?

 

[AquamanOS]

Honestly even if he'd garotted Fitz, I don't think Skye would kill him if she had the option.

Again the only way I'd see them not trying to take him alive and toss him in jail is if killing him was the only way to stop him from killing someone right there (ie he's gonna shoot Fitz or Simmons or something unless Skye shoots him first) or if like Scorch he gets powers that make it impossible for him to be non lethally disabled.

 

[nogolf33]

Just curious and for the sake of discussion......
To those who feel Skye's "pardon" of Ward's death sentence is justifiable I pose this hypothetical question.........is there any action on Ward's part that would give cause to Skye just letting him die?
Obviously the murder of Koenig and the betrayal does not pass muster, but if Ward had also murdered May as I believe he intended to do would that then give Skye cause, or no matter what the circumstance would Skye be incapable of allowing Ward or any "someone" to die?

Skye is compassionate, not fueled by hate and anger, and reflects a comic-book tradition of a hero not allowing a person to die through inaction. Coulson called Garrett a psychopath, didn't Skye call Ward the same in the diner? The show has been consistent in setting the parameters on how Coulson, and now Skye, use weapons. They protect others, they don't use lethal force unless facing that level of force.

Skye wants Ward to go to trial, not see him killed in front of her.

 

[marcvader]

Skye has definitely followed Coulson's lead and not Wards.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Just curious and for the sake of discussion......
To those who feel Skye's "pardon" of Ward's death sentence is justifiable I pose this hypothetical question.........is there any action on Ward's part that would give cause to Skye just letting him die?
Obviously the murder of Koenig and the betrayal does not pass muster, but if Ward had also murdered May as I believe he intended to do would that then give Skye cause, or no matter what the circumstance would Skye be incapable of allowing Ward or any "someone" to die?

I'm not sure that many people find it justifiable as understandable. Again, Skye hasn't had time to process this at all. By the time Ward's life is in danger, it's only been a few hours since she's realized he's Hydra. Right before that, she only knew him as the man who had been there for her, saved her life, and now a person who she was developing romantic feelings for.

You can't just chuck that in a few hours. It takes time to process. And she didn't even get that. She had to jump straight into another act in order to survive. She clearly wanted to let him die, but you can't just discard all those emotions that quickly.

And even then, everything about Skye's character development this season has shown that she wouldn't be the kind of person that could just sit back and watch someone die.

 

[nogolf33]

I mean justifiable by the story as it is laid out, and or by her character....I believe by your response you hold that her character justifies her decision to save Ward.

Marcvader fill in whatever term you deem fitting. Pardon was used tongue in cheek to illustrate that Ward has committed capital crimes, crimes which may ultimately be resolved by his death.

Whiskey Tango, I don't hold that Skye is a failure...rather that this, and the previous episode, set her up to just let Ward die....she despises him.....she believes Ward to be a Nazi seriel killer (her own words) and the thought that she once cared for him made her want to vomit. I feel the episodes set her up to let Ward die,(of course that would never happen as it would be the end of Ward as a very respectable villain) but I can certainly buy the argument that her character is incapable of letting anyone die, hence........

.......Back to my hypothetical question....If Ward had killed, oh say, Fitz or Simmons or both would Skye behave the same, or would her character be incapable in any scenario of letting Ward die? Furthermore could she kill Ward or anyone in any setting?

Hypothetically, Skye would have not have held together that well if May, Fitz, or Simmons were found in the storage room. I think she'd be catatonic, Ward would find her locked in the bathroom, drag her to the bus... she might let him die.

 

[Heretic]

For the record...no, I dont think that Skye would just let Ward die. She is attracted to him, and her personality thus far has been so weak that she likely would save his life, and whatever consequences come with that, so be it. If he kills everyone else she loves...well...a girl has to hook up, right?

My point is that unless they write an out for her, she's an idiot. Even the out would be shaky since she risked her life to save that info.


But Ward IS a Nazi. The hoops you guys are jumping through are just absurd. After WW2, an unsurprisingly large number of Nazi soldiers who worked in the death camps and fought in the war or supplied the weapons and money claimed that they didn't really believe in the Nazi cause...they were just doing it out of debt to their country, or for profit, or any number of other reasons. Does that mean that they weren't Nazis? Of course not. Let's say that someone wants to kill some random family. However, they dont have the ability or weapons to do so. A friend of theirs does have the weapons and ability to do so, so that friend goes to the family's house and kills them. Was that person responsible, or was he just being a loyal friend? Under your belief system, that person should not spend the rest of their life in jail because...hey...they didn't really WANT to kill...they were just doing a favor for a friend! Maybe they want to have sex with a sexy actress/hacker...shouldnt that allow them to remain free?

Hydra has fallen. The ONLY reason why they are a threat at all during this chaotic time is because Ward set loose super-powered villains and gave weapons of mass destruction to what is left of Hydra. In the process, he's murdered many innocent people. There is NO way to redeem himself. If he saves Skye's life...great...but he personally murdered many people and perhaps millions more will die because of him. If he saves the entire world, he STILL is not redeemed because he's the reason why the world is in danger!

 

[Dr. Evil]

The modern day version of HYDRA in the MCU is different then the Nazis, because I doubt that the Nazis would have a black man working for them. Nor would they have some who's mixed (Raina) working for them either.

 

[Heretic]

The modern day version of HYDRA in the MCU is different then the Nazis, because I doubt that the Nazis would have a black man working for them. Nor would they have some who's mixed (Raina) working for them either.

Oh my god...the hair splitting is maddening!

Who cares what Hydra thinks of minorities? They are a Nazi offshoot group with plans of world domination who plan to kill the millions or billions who try to stop them and use weapons of mass destruction to do it...and are tinkering with human genetics or something to usher in a super race of people.

Simply saying "they aren't Nazis...they are Hydra who used to be called Nazis and have basically the same goals as Nazis...but aren't using that name" does not suddenly make them less evil.

Let's imagine a scenario...

A man plants two bombs. One goes off and kills many innocent people. Turns out, the woman he wants to have sex with is in the blast area for the second bomb...so he has a change of heart and defuses the other bomb. Is he now a hero? Should we thank him? Does that mean that he has redeemed himself because he defused a bomb that he himself created and planted. No, of course not. The man should still be arrested, convicted and sentenced to death.