Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. Season 1 Episode 20 "Nothing Personal"

[Dr. Evil]

HYDRA is more Al Qaeda than the Nazis.

 

[Ant-manic]

then what should be call the Ten Rings?

 

[Dr. Evil]

then what should be call the Ten Rings?

Russians.

 

[AquamanOS]

Hydra has fallen. The ONLY reason why they are a threat at all during this chaotic time is because Ward set loose super-powered villains and gave weapons of mass destruction to what is left of Hydra. In the process, he's murdered many innocent people. There is NO way to redeem himself. If he saves Skye's life...great...but he personally murdered many people and perhaps millions more will die because of him. If he saves the entire world, he STILL is not redeemed because he's the reason why the world is in danger!

Hydra still has Baron Strucker doing god knows what and preparing to unleash more havoc on the world. Hydra even without Garrett doing anything had the majority of Shield's assets still under their control. Deathlok was still running around getting orders from someone who was working for Garrett. They are still a world wide threat. Yeah Pierce and Helicarrier plan failed but they have more games in play. That's why Nick Fury went underground. To keep dealing with their remnants.

So yeah it's not Ward's fault Hydra's still up and running. He gave them a boost sure, but it's not like everything would be perfectly find if only Ward didn't do anything. He's certainly not the reason the world is still in danger.

Of course he's still going to jail unless he manages to escape, even if he realized betting on Garrett was a poor choice. But you're putting him up on the villain scale a little too high I think.

And quite honestly even if Skye had let him die, nothing would have changed. Ward already did all that stuff.

 

[JC00]

The modern day version of HYDRA in the MCU is different then the Nazis, because I doubt that the Nazis would have a black man working for them. Nor would they have some who's mixed (Raina) working for them either.

Well if you saw Captain America:TFA it's clear Hydra broke away from the Nazi's, as evident when Red Skull killed three of Hitler's top guys and had Berlin pinned on his takeover map.

I just really don't get why some people got up in arms about that throwaway line. I just took it as Skye being super p****d at Ward, so she called him a Nazi. But anyone who watched TFA knows Red Skull severed that tie.

 

[metaphysician]

I have to respectfully disagree with you at this late stage in the season. At the time of THE WELL and before I most likely would have shared your belief.



Wonderman was a real bastard in the beginning of his origin story and early days, but did not ever go around murdering scores of co-workers and associates (read SHIELD Agents in Ward's case, perhaps some of those Police Officers died as well). Ward is just a straight up psychopath on a "mission from god" kind of run for Garrett. I don't think he's being controlled, has been brainwashed, or coerced in any other way, but time will tell. He's just a trained killer who has been taken off his chain.

So what your saying is he'd be a crappy Simon Williams. . . but he'd be a great *Eric* Williams.

 

[metaphysician]

The Avengers Health Insurance & Trauma Initiative

 

[Shikamaru]

Garrett isn't even a direct part of HYDRA. He's part of the organization, sure, but as he himself stated, he only wants to be in the direction the wind is blowing. He himself - as well as his accomplices - don't seem to believe in any of HYDRA's worldviews. Centipede is to HYDRA what Marvel and Pixar are to Disney. Disney may own them, but they rarely-to-never actually get involved with any of their projects. And if Pixar and Marvel fell through tomorrow, Disney would still be around as a huge corporation (it's a flawed analogy since Disney is nowhere near HYDRA, but you get the point ).

 

[Dr. Evil]

Well if you saw Captain America:TFA it's clear Hydra broke away from the Nazi's, as evident when Red Skull killed three of Hitler's top guys and had Berlin pinned on his takeover map.

I just really don't get why some people got up in arms about that throwaway line. I just took it as Skye being super p****d at Ward, so she called him a Nazi. But anyone who watched TFA knows Red Skull severed that tie.

I saw TFA.

 

[TheFirstAvenger]

Garrett isn't even a direct part of HYDRA. He's part of the organization, sure, but as he himself stated, he only wants to be in the direction the wind is blowing. He himself - as well as his accomplices - don't seem to believe in any of HYDRA's worldviews. Centipede is to HYDRA what Marvel and Pixar are to Disney. Disney may own them, but they rarely-to-never actually get involved with any of their projects. And if Pixar and Marvel fell through tomorrow, Disney would still be around as a huge corporation (it's a flawed analogy since Disney is nowhere near HYDRA, but you get the point ).

Oh My Gosh Disney IS HYDRA!

 

[Dr. Evil]

Oh My Gosh Disney IS HYDRA!

It explains a lot.

 

[Heretic]

Hydra still has Baron Strucker doing god knows what and preparing to unleash more havoc on the world. Hydra even without Garrett doing anything had the majority of Shield's assets still under their control. Deathlok was still running around getting orders from someone who was working for Garrett. They are still a world wide threat. Yeah Pierce and Helicarrier plan failed but they have more games in play. That's why Nick Fury went underground. To keep dealing with their remnants.

So yeah it's not Ward's fault Hydra's still up and running. He gave them a boost sure, but it's not like everything would be perfectly find if only Ward didn't do anything. He's certainly not the reason the world is still in danger.

Of course he's still going to jail unless he manages to escape, even if he realized betting on Garrett was a poor choice. But you're putting him up on the villain scale a little too high I think.

And quite honestly even if Skye had let him die, nothing would have changed. Ward already did all that stuff.

If Strucker was ready to strike, he would strike. He is not ready...which is why RIGHT NOW Ward is directly responsible for the carnage etc that is going on. I didn't mention whether or not they would strike in the future without Ward, just that RIGHT NOW, in all of this confusion, Hydra has lost on every ACTIVE front...except for the fact that Ward is personally responsible for opening up new areas of conflict.

 

[Ant-manic]

i wonder how old the movie version of Strucker is supposed to be. he hasn't been namedropped on Agents of SHIELD, yet. but he'd have to be pretty high up on their most wanted list; unless he hides in plain sight a la Garrett.

 

[Ant-manic]

Garrett isn't even a direct part of HYDRA. He's part of the organization, sure, but as he himself stated, he only wants to be in the direction the wind is blowing. He himself - as well as his accomplices - don't seem to believe in any of HYDRA's worldviews. Centipede is to HYDRA what Marvel and Pixar are to Disney. Disney may own them, but they rarely-to-never actually get involved with any of their projects. And if Pixar and Marvel fell through tomorrow, Disney would still be around as a huge corporation (it's a flawed analogy since Disney is nowhere near HYDRA, but you get the point ).

so how does Advanced Idea Mechanics fit into all of this? because they were the original Hydra Science division; started by Strucker, irrc. Centipede seems to be stepping on their toes.

 

[Jasyn]

So what your saying is he'd be a crappy Simon Williams. . . but he'd be a great *Eric* Williams.

I could support the idea of the Grant Ward we see before us today, becoming The Grim Reaper in the future (in comics - Eric Williams). The Simon Williams (Wonderman) potential no longer applies to Ward's character progression shown, in my opinion.

But as others have proposed in the past, I also think Grant Ward could make a really great Taskmaster (mercenary villain).

 

[Ant-manic]

I could support the idea of the Grant Ward we see before us today, becoming The Grim Reaper in the future (in comics - Eric Williams). The Simon Williams (Wonderman) potential no longer applies to Ward's character progression shown, in my opinion.

But as others have proposed in the past, I also think Grant Ward could make a really great Taskmaster (mercenary villain).

i dunno. that's something that you have to set up early on; i'm speaking about the photographic reflexes. it's something that would have been mentioned, at some point.

 

[Katsuro]

The man should still be arrested, convicted and sentenced to death.

Wrong. And that there explains why you see things the way you do. Capital punishment is barbaric and disgusting.

It's a hugely divisive issue, far too big to get into, but the underlying philosophy pretty much explains the difference of opinion here.

 

[Shikamaru]

so how does Advanced Idea Mechanics fit into all of this? because they were the original Hydra Science division; started by Strucker, irrc. Centipede seems to be stepping on their toes.

Well, we know from the first episode that Centipede stole/bought some Extremis from AIM. Centipede is stealing intelligence from all over the place.

As for AIM themselves, they don't seem to have a history with HYDRA in this specific universe.

 

[Loki882]

Yeah, AIM was basically invented/founded by Aldrich Killian in the MCU. They're a relatively new group (a decade or so old).

 

[Jasyn]

Well, we know from the first episode that Centipede stole/bought some Extremis from AIM. Centipede is stealing intelligence from all over the place.

As for AIM themselves, they don't seem to have a history with HYDRA in this specific universe.

I hope AIM is not gone for good in the MCU. Maybe we will see AIM resurface by way of Dr. Hall/Graviton's return, working with Dr. Donnie Gill/Blizzard, and Raina, and maybe Ian Quinn (if Hall doesn't destroy him).

 

[Infinity9999x]

As you stated before...Jamie is a horrible, despicable villain who even crippled a child by pushing him out of a window...yet rape is against his character?? Why is that? Because you WANT him to be a good person now, after a long list of evil deeds he's committed? It sounds to me like being good was the anomaly, not the long history of horrible acts.

Ward has certainly become cooler since we found out that he has been a Hydra agent all along. While we don't wish to see soldiers or cops killed in real life, his character is more interesting being the antagonist who is willing to kill for his evil agenda. If you redeem him because he wants to have sex with a sexy woman, then we have the boring Ward we had before.

I'll note that if it turns out that he was brainwashed or some other thing like that, then none of this matters. I'm talking specifically of Ward choosing this path on his own.

Sorry, missed this earlier. But in terms of why it's against Jamie's character, well...slightly off topic but...

I've actually read the books. Aside from the fact that Jamie NEVER raped anyone, he actually speaks out against rape multiple times, and talks about how he thought it was despicable. Not only that, it made absolutely ZERO sense for Jamie to rape Cersei, because every horrible and despicable act he's done can be traced back to one source: His love for his family. Usually his love for Cersei. He would never harm her, and having him force her in that scene was wildly out of character. And poor writing in my opinion. Not because I want Jamie to be a "cool" bad guy, but because it went against the logic set up within his character.

And as for the Ward thing, I think a good redemption story can be very interesting. If it's handled right. And the key with that is, it can't be easy. It has to be messy, it has to be hard. And not everyone should forgive him. Honestly though, I really don't care if they do redeem him or not. I'm enjoying him bad, but my entire point with this was that he's a character that's more than capable of being redeemed. Audiences have accepted turns from characters that have committed far worse.

 

[JC00]

Telling you right now we will find out that A.I.M was secretly backed by Baron Strucker and Hydra.

 

[starwolf_oakley]

Ward's goals: From what Ward said to Raina, he's loyal to Garrett, and Garrett told Coulson he only joined with HYDRA because he thought they would win. (As in, Project Insight would be successful, I guess.) Garrett's main goal is the secret of TAHITI and the Guest House formula. Given Garrett has a cybernetic something on his torso, maybe he's eager to be restored to full health so he doesn't have to wear turtlenecks anymore. Garrett is more or less stuck with HYDRA at this point. Perhaps once he gets the formula he will go his own way.

Redeeming Ward: We don't know exactly how memories are rewritten on AOS. Maybe with the TAHITI robot that Coulson (partially) remembered in "The Magical Place." The machine that recovered that memory (if not all the context) was also used to brainwash Raina (according to Garrett in "Turn, Turn, Turn.") But we don't know anything about Raina before she started working for the Clairvoyant (thinking he was the real thing).

So either item could be used to rewrite Ward's memories so he doesn't remember being HYDRA or killing any agents and police officers. Which I don't see anyone on the team going with, unless circumstances mean Ward is too valuable to lose. Mindwiping Ward so he's loyal to Coulson and not Garrett, even if Ward agrees to it knowing he won't remember doing so, has story potential.

So, basically, Ward has to be voluntarily brainwashed to be redeemed so the rest of the team will go back to trusting him with their lives. Even for AOS, that is a little out there.

 

[Katsuro]

I accept that some people believe that Hitler, Bin Laden, etc etc don't deserve to be killed...I just disagree with you, and am comfortable in my opinion.

You really just don't get it. It's not about what they deserve. It's about what we do. How we act. We don't become killers.

I don't give a flying **** if someone else kills Ward. Maybe Deatlok or Garrett tortures him and he dies an agonizing painful death, whatever, I won't cry about it. I just would refuse to be a part of it. I wouldn't have that blood on my hands.

Basically, I know this sounds incredibly trite and cliche, but... two wrongs don't make a right. My mom taught me that very, very early on, and it stuck. And then Batman taught me that again. Or maybe it was the other way around. Either way, murder is wrong. You don't make a point about how bad murder is by murdering.

 

[Heretic]

Sorry, missed this earlier. But in terms of why it's against Jamie's character, well...slightly off topic but...

I've actually read the books. Aside from the fact that Jamie NEVER raped anyone, he actually speaks out against rape multiple times, and talks about how he thought it was despicable. Not only that, it made absolutely ZERO sense for Jamie to rape Cersei, because every horrible and despicable act he's done can be traced back to one source: His love for his family. Usually his love for Cersei. He would never harm her, and having him force her in that scene was wildly out of character. And poor writing in my opinion. Not because I want Jamie to be a "cool" bad guy, but because it went against the logic set up within his character.

And as for the Ward thing, I think a good redemption story can be very interesting. If it's handled right. And the key with that is, it can't be easy. It has to be messy, it has to be hard. And not everyone should forgive him. Honestly though, I really don't care if they do redeem him or not. I'm enjoying him bad, but my entire point with this was that he's a character that's more than capable of being redeemed. Audiences have accepted turns from characters that have committed far worse.

The books don't count as reality in the tv show. While I think it could be interesting for a company to set movies, tv shows, video games etc all in the same continuity...in the case of Game of Thrones, the book did not "happen." So, when judging a character, you have to go with the tv show continuity...although it would be wrong to drastically alter the character from the source (it would be wrong to have a Jason Voorhees tv show where he is a hunky teen who dates a bunch of hotties, for instance).

I know that audiences have accepted all kinds of awful behavior from characters that turn good. Personally, I'm not sure that I could ever cheer for a character that knowingly attempting genocide in an effort to overthrow and enslave the world. I'm really not sure what it would take to make me accept that person as a hero. I've always been a bit of a stickler with characters maintaining their cores while evolving in more natural ways.