BvS All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion (TAG SPOILERS) - - - - - Part 306

[TeeKay]

Superman said to Lois that he had to convince Batman to help him. He went there because his mother was in danger. So he wanted his help, and he needed his help. If you want someone's help you have to ask. He didn't say what he had to say sooner because the movie is not well written. It's as simple as that. One thing is to like the movie(i do too), the other is to have blinders on and try to defend absolutely everything and anything about it. I'm sorry, but if he could have said what he needed to say much sooner, and he would have, if he had been written by people who understood that someone like Superman would be smart enough and preoccupied enough with his mother to do it. If you can't see this, there's really not much to talk about with you.

The part that bothered me the most is in the UC where Superman picks up Batman and throws him in an alley then casually walk towards him. He's removed Batman where he had set all those booby traps. Instead of telling him whats going on, he pummels him through a building. Both characters are made dumb for the fight to happen.

 

[Micromind]

Superman said to Lois that he had to convince Batman to help him. He went there because his mother was in danger. So he wanted his help, and he needed his help. If you want someone's help you have to ask. He didn't say what he had to say sooner because the movie is not well written. It's as simple as that. One thing is to like the movie(i do too), the other is to have blinders on and try to defend absolutely everything and anything about it. I'm sorry, but if he could have said what he needed to say much sooner, and he would have, if he had been written by people who understood that someone like Superman would be smart enough and preoccupied enough with his mother to do it. If you can't see this, there's really not much to talk about with you.

Batman's mental state was not "normal", this can be seen from the scene where Alfred tries to talk him out of having a fight with Superman, he was hellbent on committing suicide, this was a different Batman, not the usual Batman who uses his brain.

During the fight Batman was prepared to kill Superman or die trying , he was on edge, as Clark Kent learned while in Metropolis ("words won't stop him, fists will") and ("There a new mean in him, he is hunting") Have you watched the Ultimate Cut ?

I really think no amount of talk or reason would have worked with Batman, he was in no mood for all that, he was prepared to kill him.

 

[Wolfgangamadeus]

It doesn't matter if he knows Batman will listen or not. He still should've tried a lot harder. Batman was right in his face and he shoved him instead of talking. After he destroyed the guns, he had all the time in the world but he rammed him up a building and tried to beat him down. Batman even stopped punching him when he realized he was back to full strength and instead of spitting it out, he pushed him beneath the floor and continued the fight.

This just speaks volumes about this version of Superman. He is not an effective communicator. He cannot or even will not even make multiple attempts to connect or reach out to people--we even saw this with the public. And he's simply not the guy who can take charge and lead a team because he's goddamn awful at dealing with people. This guy may have the powers of Superman and the suit but he has none of the wisdom, none of the affable qualities or the leadership prowess.

 

[Micromind]

It doesn't matter if he knows Batman will listen or not. He still should've tried a lot harder. Batman was right in his face and he shoved him instead of talking. After he destroyed the guns, he had all the time in the world but he rammed him up a building and tried to beat him down. Batman even stopped punching him when he realized he was back to full strength and instead of spitting it out, he pushed him beneath the floor and continued the fight.

This just speaks volumes about this version of Superman. He is not an effective communicator. He cannot or even will not even make multiple attempts to connect or reach out to people--we even saw this with the public. And he's simply not the guy who can take charge and lead a team because he's goddamn awful at dealing with people. This guy may have the powers of Superman and the suit but he has none of the wisdom, none of the affable qualities or the leadership prowess.

He already said "Sorry.. Bruce, I was wrong..", after that he was attacked.

When Superman rammed Batman into a building he was trying to subdue him so that he could talk to Batman who (he thought) would giveup the fight, he even says "If I wanted to.. you would be dead already", what happens after that ? Does Batman wait patiently to listen what Superman wants to say ? No, he shoots a K-grenade at him.

Batman was crazy.

 

[Wolfgangamadeus]

He already said "Sorry.. Bruce, I was wrong..", after that he was attacked.

When Superman rammed Batman into a building he was trying to subdue him so that he could talk to Batman who (he thought) would giveup the fight, he even says "If I wanted to.. you would be dead already", what happens after that ? Does Batman wait patiently to listen what Superman wants to say ? No, he shoots a K-grenade at him.

Batman was crazy.

It doesn't matter what Batman does. When Batman is in his face, Superman has all the time in the world to spit out the words he needs to but he shoves him and then rams him up a building. Then after being shot with the K-grenade, he doesn't know he's weakened and still takes a huge cut at batman which is blocked---if he weren't powerless he would've taken Batman's head OFF.

Superman as a character is wiser than this. But this version is not. He's an amateur aggressor with all the powers of Superman but none of the emotional intelligence or diplomatic capabilities.

If Batman persisted to fight AFTER Superman told him, then at least I can buy some of it. But this guy gives up trying to tell him and starts beating up a mortal human--as I said, he fails at communicating, he fails at leadership and frankly, the sad part is, he doesn't even really try that hard.

 

[Wolfgangamadeus]

After the UC I really like 2/3rds of this movie despite severe issues with the Superman portion. But once Lois is kidnapped, I vehemently hate the rest of it until Clark's funeral which is beautiful. I hate the reason for which they fought, I hate how it took place, hate Superman's behavior, the hokey resolution, and that cartoonish silly Doomsday fight that doesn't fit at all with the serious--grounded political film it's trying to go for. The last act really craps itself...for me.

 

[The Guard]

It doesn't matter if he knows Batman will listen or not. He still should've tried a lot harder.

Yes. He should have.

And the film makes it clear that he should have.

Because violence doesn't end up solving anything. Not until Superman tries to connect with Batman on a human level does Batman even slow his assault.

They were wrong to fight. That's the whole point of the resolution of the movie for both characters. They were wrong to be at odds. They should have listened to each other, tried to see the other person's point of view.

That's like, the entire point of the movie. that's like the entire theme of the movie. And it's not just about Batman and Superman. The movie is also about a lack of communication between the metahumans (Superman) and the larger world.

Much of Superman's arc involves learning that he cannot just impose his power, that he has to learn to accept some criticism and communicate more effectively.

They're portrayed as flawed individuals throughout the entire film. Superman has been portrayed as a flawed individual throughout the entire franchise.

This just speaks volumes about this version of Superman. He is not an effective communicator. He cannot or even will not even make multiple attempts to connect or reach out to people--we even saw this with the public. And he's simply not the guy who can take charge and lead a team because he's goddamn awful at dealing with people. This guy may have the powers of Superman and the suit but he has none of the wisdom, none of the affable qualities or the leadership prowess.

You're assuming he did not learn through the events of BVS that he needs to be able to communicate better and work together with others with power. Pretty sure that was the entire point of their conflict from a story standpoint, and the resolution of it.

He's not the all powerful, all wise, compassionate Superman that we know and love yet. He doesn't become the person who would gladly lay down his life for humanity until the end of BVS.

But he is growing into that character. Filmmakers have said this from Day One. You can whine about the fact that he's not been portrayed as the fully formed, uber compassionate champion of Earth from the comics all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that filmmakers have a clear vision, and are clearly developing him into that type of character over the course of these films.

 

[Micromind]

After the UC I really like 2/3rds of this movie despite severe issues with the Superman portion. But once Lois is kidnapped, I vehemently hate the rest of it until Clark's funeral which is beautiful. I hate the reason for which they fought, I hate how it took place, hate Superman's behavior, the hokey resolution, and that cartoonish silly Doomsday fight that doesn't fit at all with the serious--grounded political film it's trying to go for. The last act really craps itself...for me.

Superman himself is not just there where fans want him to be, a leader of high emotional quotient who rarely gets angry, this Superman is still evolving, he can get depressed, he can get sad, he can get angry and is impulsive.

Despite his good intentions, his "human upbringing" makes him vulnerable to emotions.

Doomsday fight was included to tie the movie to MoS and as a set-up for the next movie.

Which is why where Lex makes a contact with Apokolips, it also served a means to kill Superman.

 

[Wolfgangamadeus]

Superman himself is not just there where fans want him to be, a leader of high emotional quotient who rarely gets angry, this Superman is still evolving, he can get depressed, he can get sad, he can get angry and is impulsive.

Despite his good intentions, his "human upbringing" makes him vulnerable to emotions.

Doomsday fight was included to tie the movie to MoS and set up for the next movie where Lex makes a contact with Apokolips, it also served a means to kill Superman.

Some of those qualities have to be inherent and should be established before he dons the cape IMO. He can certainly keep improving but as of right now those qualities seem nearly non-existent. He barely has any likable qualities to him, which is why people all over the world are afraid of him. He makes no effort to communicate, to talk to people to make himself approachable etc.

I understand why the Doomsday fight was there but with all the electric lights the fiery grey scale stuff---it looked like a videogame and didn't fit in with the rest of the film visually which was a grounded political entry. It's like having Doomsday show up at the end of The Dark Knight.

 

[Wolfgangamadeus]

Yes. He should have.

And the film makes it clear that he should have.

Because violence doesn't end up solving anything. Not until Superman tries to connect with Batman on a human level does Batman even slow his assault.

They were wrong to fight. That's the whole point of the resolution of the movie for both characters. They were wrong to be at odds. They should have listened to each other, tried to see the other person's point of view.

That's like, the entire point of the movie. that's like the entire theme of the movie. And it's not just about Batman and Superman. The movie is also about a lack of communication between the metahumans (Superman) and the larger world.

Much of Superman's arc involves learning that he cannot just impose his power, that he has to learn to accept some criticism and communicate more effectively.

They're portrayed as flawed individuals throughout the entire film. Superman has been portrayed as a flawed individual throughout the entire franchise.



You're assuming he did not learn through the events of BVS that he needs to be able to communicate better and work together with others with power. Pretty sure that was the entire point of their conflict from a story standpoint, and the resolution of it.

He's not the all powerful, all wise, compassionate Superman that we know and love yet. He doesn't become the person who would gladly lay down his life for humanity until the end of BVS.

But he is growing into that character. Filmmakers have said this from Day One. You can whine about the fact that he's not been portrayed as the fully formed, uber compassionate champion of Earth from the comics all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that filmmakers have a clear vision, and are clearly developing him into that type of character over the course of these films.

They're going about it the wrong way then IMO. Because qualities can be improved, but he doesn't seem like he even has any of these qualities. Not to mention, these are lessons he should've learned as a teenager before he becomes Superman. An all powerful God acting like an angsty impulsive teenager is the reason why not everyone is behind him.

They were wrong to fight exactly. Instead of the mom kidnapped by Lex Luthor nonsense if the fight had been about actual ideological conflicts it would've made sense for why neither would've backed down. Superman is trying to bring down Batman because he thinks of him as judge, jury and executioner--a man trying to enact his own warped version of Justice. Batman wants to bring down Superman because he thinks Superman is a self righteous tyrant who is extremely dangerous and acts unilaterally. That would actually cause them both to fight and for the audience to choose what kind of a hero the world needs.

In the end they could actually have a conversation as characters and realize why the world needs them both. That would've been far more compelling than a fight where one of them doesn't even want to fight and fails repeatedly to tell the other person why he's being forced to fight meanwhile the differences of opinion as far as justice goes is just chucked away. God I really hate the reason they fought--everything was lined up as well for a proper philosophical conflict and then they pulled this mom bulls*** with Lex Luthor.

 

[The Guard]

I still don't see any reason for him NOT TO TRY. Your mother is dying and all you say is "you don't understand"? And if he really thinks there's really no reasoning with Batman, why say anything? Why say "i was wrong"? Why say "stay down"? Why say anything?

Because he didn't know there was no reasoning with Batman at that point. Because Batman hadn't attacked him, and Superman's life wasn't in danger yet.

People seem to miss the point that Superman is not just fighting Batman for no reason in this sequence. He is very soon fighting for his life.

The movie clearly shows Superman wants to try to reason with Batman, but the whole thing is so awfully written that he fails the do it in an effective manner.

It's not supposed to be an effective tactic at this point in the fight.

Hell, he fails to try it. He could have just said "Bruce, Lex kidnapped Martha and is playing us against each other". Boom! What's so hard about that simple phrase?

There's nothing hard about that simple phrase.

The filmmakers made a choice to introduce the "Martha" concept and the fact that Superman needs help to save an innocent, later in the fight, where it would have greater emotional impact for both characters.

It doesn't matter whether or not Batman would have listened. It's not about that. It's about Superman not even trying, which makes absolutely no sense given that he really wanted to save his mother. Instead we get 7 or 8 minutes of silence fighting.

Now wait a minute...you just said that he does try, and that the film clearly shows him trying.

Why does it matter that much of the fighting is silent? In the real world, people don't usually continue to try to talk things out once things come to blows, and people don't usually talk to each other ad nauseum when they fight.

 

[Micromind]

Some of those qualities have to be inherent and should be established before he dons the cape IMO. He can certainly keep improving but as of right now those qualities seem nearly non-existent. He barely has any likable qualities to him, which is why people all over the world are afraid of him. He makes no effort to communicate, to talk to people to make himself approachable etc.

Both Superman and Batman are far from what fans want to see them as in this movie for different reasons.

Let's face it had we got Batman as we see in Bale's TDK and Superman as in Routh's Superman Returns, the fight would have never happened.

I understand why the Doomsday fight was there but with all the electric lights the fiery grey scale stuff---it looked like a videogame and didn't fit in with the rest of the film visually which was a grounded political entry. It's like having Doomsday show up at the end of The Dark Knight.

The scenes look like taken from a scifi movie, but this is a direct sequel to such movie (MoS), so while tonally jarring, it was not entirely unexpected.

Superman's movies have a bit of scifi in them while Batman's deal with crime and political tones, since this was a mix of both, we got that.

 

[MydnightPhoenix]

Superman said to Lois that he had to convince Batman to help him. He went there because his mother was in danger. So he wanted his help, and he needed his help. If you want someone's help you have to ask. He didn't say what he had to say sooner because the movie is not well written. It's as simple as that. One thing is to like the movie(i do too), the other is to have blinders on and try to defend absolutely everything and anything about it. I'm sorry, but if he could have said what he needed to say much sooner, and he would have, if he had been written by people who understood that someone like Superman would be smart enough and preoccupied enough with his mother to do it. If you can't see this, there's really not much to talk about with you.

Some of the best movie fights have the combatants having a dialogue while it's going on, it would have he simple to have this occur in BvS but then the tension between the 2 would have been gradually released instead of all at once at the end. I also see it as inconsistent writing.

 

[Wolfgangamadeus]

Both Superman and Batman are far from what fans want to see them as in this movie for different reasons.

Let's face it had we got Batman as we see in Bale's TDK and Superman as in Routh's Superman Returns, the fight would have never occurred.

Exactly! Which is why it felt so contrived. This fight should've never happened. But you know how it could've happened? Rather than the mom stuff--go the ideological differences route as seen in my post above. That would've actually made sense.

The scenes are a bit from scifi movie, but this is a direct sequel to such movie (MoS), so while tonally jarring, it was not entirely unexpected.

Superman's movies have a bit of scifi in them while Batman's deal with crime and political tones, since this was a mix of both, we got that.

I understand! But visually speaking, most of the film looks so grounded and heavy while this just looks like a cartoon injected at the end. It was like watching a completely different film all of a sudden! If they just stuck to the Batman v Superman portion and have the Journalist and the Detective working together after they understand each other to bring down Lex--it would've been a great film IMO.

 

[shauner111]

He didn't say anything more than once because Zack wanted this fight to be Lon and awesome. He wanted to get to that fight more than anything else because that was the title of the movie. He had to force a huge fight in there somewhere.

 

[Micromind]

Exactly! Which is why it felt so contrived. This fight should've never happened. But you know how it could've happened? Rather than the mom stuff--go the ideological differences route as seen in my post above. That would've actually made sense.

Actually, Superman and Batman's ideology is not all that different (comic version), both want to save innocent lives while trying to uphold the sanctity of life, only their methods are different, this is not an enough reason to them to go after each other.

Why ? Because it's superficial difference, fighting over it would make them difficult to work together in future.

The ideological difference is not as great as (for example) exists between likes of Punisher and Spider-Man.

 

[The Guard]

They're going about it the wrong way then IMO. Because qualities can be improved, but he doesn't seem like he even has any of these qualities. Not to mention, these are lessons he should've learned as a teenager before he becomes Superman. An all powerful God acting like an angsty impulsive teenager is the reason why not everyone is behind him.

Superheroes and vigilantes, by nature, use violence to control a situation or solve problems.

Even in the comics, Superman is often quick to attack or physically subdue a foe to try to gain the upper hand through sheer force.

While it is common to see him try a more compassionate approach, it certainly does not happen all the time.

They were wrong to fight exactly. Instead of the mom kidnapped by Lex Luthor nonsense if the fight had been about actual ideological conflicts it would've made sense for why neither would've backed down.

First, the "fight" is only a logical progression from the film itself, which DOES present ideological conflicts developing.

How are they not fighting over ideological conflicts? Superman is using force to subdue a violent persion so he can save an innocent person. Which is core to his character's beliefs, and why he uses violence in the first place.

And Batman is still fighting over ideological conflicts as well. The fight has very personal and emotional stakes for both of them.

Fighting because they approach crimefighting differently or something...no, I'm sorry, that would just not have as much weight to it. You have to have something at stake beyond who is right and wrong. Especially since neither of them is inherently wrong about the other one's flaws.

Superman is trying to bring down Batman because he thinks of him as judge, jury and executioner--a man trying to enact his own warped version of Justice.

This is pretty much inherent in the fight, though. How is Batman not clearly acting as judge, jury and executioner toward Superman himself?

From the outset of the fight, Superman basically says with his actions: "I tried to communicate with you. You don't want to communicate and have attacked me. You ARE the violent force I thought you were...fine. I will MAKE you listen".

Batman wants to bring down Superman because he thinks Superman is a self righteous tyrant who is extremely dangerous and acts unilaterally.

Did you watch the movie? That IS why Batman is trying to bring Superman down.

That would actually cause them both to fight and for the audience to choose what kind of a hero the world needs.

That sounds incredibly cheesy.

In the end they could actually have a conversation as characters and realize why the world needs them both.

Ugh. No thank you. That just makes them sound pretentious.

God I really hate the reason they fought--everything was lined up as well for a proper philosophical conflict and then they pulled this mom bulls*** with Lex Luthor.

The "mom ********" does not change their inherent ideological and philosophical differences.

And people don't always only fight over their ideologies. They may develop animosity over ideologies, but they don't always engage in physical conflict over them. Sometimes people use violence just to make a point or to protect themselves, as Superman does after being attacked.

 

[The Guard]

Not effectively. He spends most of the time in silence when he could have simply said what he needed to say. Yes, he tried ONCE, what about the rest of the time?

Did you miss the part where I pointed out that it's clearly not supposed to BE effective?

Batman literally attacks him WHILE he is trying to explain the situation.

He is not morally obligated to try more than once. Especially after being attacked.

 

[The Guard]

Actually, Superman and Batman's ideology is not all that different (comic version), both want to save innocent lives while trying to uphold the sanctity of life, only their methods are different, this is not an enough reason to them to go after each other.

Why ? Because it's superficial difference, fighting over it would make them difficult to work together in future.

The ideological difference is not as great as (for example) exists between likes of Punisher and Spider-Man.

Agreed.

Also, they're both effectively vigilantes who use violence to solve their issues.

This movie sowed the seeds of their ideological differences. We'll probably see some more of this in JUSTICE LEAGUE and its sequels. Actually, we've been told Batman and Superman WILL butt heads in JL. But people want everything wrapped up in one movie nowadays.

 

[The Guard]

Some of the best movie fights have the combatants having a dialogue while it's going on

And some of the best fights have mostly silent combatants, not ongoing dialogue.

Curious which fights you're referring to, actually.

 

[Wolfgangamadeus]

Superheroes and vigilantes, by nature, use violence to control a situation or solve problems.

Even in the comics, Superman is often quick to attack or physically subdue a foe to try to gain the upper hand through sheer force.

While it is common to see him try a more compassionate approach, it certainly does not happen all the time.

Against supervillains sure. But this guy takes big cuts at Batman that would've taken his head off if his powers weren't depleted ( and he wasn't aware of that). He never even makes attempts for the compassionate approach when he has the time.

First, the "fight" is only a logical progression from the film itself, which DOES present ideological conflicts developing.

How are they not fighting over ideological conflicts? Superman is using force to subdue a violent persion so he can save an innocent person. Which is core to his character's beliefs, and why he uses violence in the first place.

Superman doesn't even want to fight. He's fighting because Lex Luthor has strong armed him into doing so by kidnapping his mom. In a proper scenario Superman would be looking to bring down Batman for all his unjustified violence and brutality. He is fighting because Lex sent him and he won't talk. If Lex hadn't taken his mom, he might not even have shown up.

Fighting because they approach crimefighting differently or something...no, I'm sorry, that would just not have as much weight to it. You have to have something at stake beyond who is right and wrong. Especially since neither of them is inherently wrong about the other one's flaws.

We still this all the time in the comics about the conflict between them about the different approaches to fighting crime. That's the one with weight to it because not only does it offer commentary on the real world but it also offers some discourse on the clashing methods of enacting justice--it's very philosophically complex and a good reason for two people with such fixed views to fight over. That's the thing--both of them are overlooking their own faults and through the result of the fight and actually talking to each other, they realize why they need each other.

From the outset of the fight, Superman basically says with his actions: "I tried to communicate with you. You don't want to communicate and have attacked me. You ARE the violent force I thought you were...fine. I will MAKE you listen".

Uh...NO. He tried half heartedly once and gives up trying. He had time to communicate when Batman was up in his face but he shoves him away. Then he pushes him up an alley and then rams him up a building. He had numerous times and still didn't communicate. Superman is the violent force. He is an impulsive fool.

Did you watch the movie? That IS why Batman is trying to bring Superman down.

I'm talking about Superman. He doesn't even want to fight. Hardly a fight to get behind when one of them doesn't want to.

That sounds incredibly cheesy.

Offer up a real argument. That's just a label--it means nothing. And btw I took that from the actual synopsis given by WB about the film.

Ugh. No thank you. That just makes them sound pretentious.

Another label. Not a real argument. Watch how the Punisher and Daredevil did it in Daredevil season 2. Both of them vehemently disagree on each other's methods but after fighting they actually talk about it and discuss why each is the way they are. Even Rebirth did it when Superman goes to fight Batman and they talk about the different places they come from and why they are the way they are. They don't even talk about their problems in this film. That's completely shoved away.

The "mom ********" does not change their inherent ideological and philosophical differences.

It doesn't but the ideological and philosophical differences go unaddressed between the two characters.

And people don't just fight over their ideologies. They may develop animosity over ideologies, but they don't always engage in physical conflict over them.

Sure, but that would've been a compelling reason to explore the differences between the two characters. Optimism vs Cynicism. Hope vs Fear. Day vs. Night etc.

 

[Wolfgangamadeus]

Agreed.

Also, they're both effectively vigilantes who use violence to solve their issues.

This movie sowed the seeds of their ideological differences. We'll probably see some more of this in JUSTICE LEAGUE and its sequels. Actually, we've been told Batman and Superman WILL butt heads in JL. But people want everything wrapped up in one movie nowadays.

Because it's a movie. Not a tv show. You introduce arcs and plot lines and you wrap them up by the end.

 

[The Guard]

They did. Witness the resolution of Batman and Superman's conflict within the film itself.

This is just how it works when you're developing a universe of ongoing stories with characters that are going to interact through multiple films/stories. Even in the comics, Batman and Superman, after decades of stories, continue to be at odds sometimes.

It's not confined to DC stories, either. The MCU didn't resolve all of the issues Captain America and Iron Man have had with each other. They've continued to develop them over multiple films, and left the most recent one open ended.

 

[The Joker]

It doesn't matter if he knows Batman will listen or not. He still should've tried a lot harder. Batman was right in his face and he shoved him instead of talking. After he destroyed the guns, he had all the time in the world but he rammed him up a building and tried to beat him down. Batman even stopped punching him when he realized he was back to full strength and instead of spitting it out, he pushed him beneath the floor and continued the fight.

This just speaks volumes about this version of Superman. He is not an effective communicator. He cannot or even will not even make multiple attempts to connect or reach out to people--we even saw this with the public. And he's simply not the guy who can take charge and lead a team because he's goddamn awful at dealing with people. This guy may have the powers of Superman and the suit but he has none of the wisdom, none of the affable qualities or the leadership prowess.

Exactly right.

 

[MydnightPhoenix]

If the film makers wanted to make a statement about violence, that fight between Batman and Superman was not the way to go. I got many of the themes Zack was aiming for with the movie but not this one. The entire time I just kept screaming in my head "TELL HIM ALREADY! "
"Lex kidnapped my mother, he says he will kill her if I don't kill you. "
"what do I care about your alien mother?! "
"My mother is human, her name is Martha"
Then the Martha flashback happens.
That whole exchange could have been littered throughout the fight.