BvS All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion (TAG SPOILERS) - - - - - Part 306

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This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]515211[/split]

 

[souperman]

Incorrect.

So sure are you. You must be a district attorney?

Fact is he never "intends to kill" and that is the key to any charges in prosecution. Don't you watch Law and Order?

I didn't see the Gotham police charging him with spitting on the side walk...even after attempting to kill Superman!

Even in the comics, he beats people half to death and is never charged.

 

[The Joker]

Yes, your honor, I drove my Batmobile straight into those thugs, but I never intended to kill them, because it's always safe to drive straight into people and flatten them with your car.

How do you prove in court that he didn't intend to kill them doing a reckless stupid thing like that? Unless he's got the IQ of a child, the greenest lawyer fresh out of law school could have him charged with murder for driving straight into thugs like that. You don't need to be a district attorney to know that. Just have common sense.

When does he beat people half to death in the comics? Can you name me some stories where Batman hospitalized thugs because they were beaten within an inch of their lives?

 

[souperman]

Yes, your honor, I drove my Batmobile straight into those thugs, but I never intended to kill them, because it's always safe to drive straight into people and flatten them with your car.

How do you prove in court that he didn't intend to kill them doing a reckless stupid thing like that? Unless he's got the IQ of a child, the greenest lawyer fresh out of law school could have him charged with murder for driving straight into thugs like that. You don't need to be a district attorney to know that. Just have common sense.

Well your honor, I was driving my car and got pushed off the road which caused me to swerve into a building out of control. I couldn't stop in time and ended up driving through a wall and back out on to the street. I couldn't see thru the wall and had no idea there was a missle toting truck Directly in front of me. It's a wonder no one was injured!...

See. That's how.

 

[The Joker]

Well your honor, I was driving my car and got pushed off the road which caused me to swerve into a building out of control. I couldn't stop in time and ended up driving through a wall and back out on to the street. I couldn't see thru the wall and had no idea there was a missle toting truck Directly in front of me. It's a wonder no one was injured!...

See. That's how.

The Judge would reply 'Do you want some beans with that waffle?'.

 

[souperman]

The Judge would reply 'Do you want some beans with that waffle?'.

Is that a thing? Beans and waffle.? Never heard that one.

 

[souperman]

When does he beat people half to death in the comics? Can you name me some stories where Batman hospitalized thugs because they were beaten within an inch of their lives?

I am not a big comic reader but these are a few I found quickly. Seems to be all through his history right from number 1.
Some injured - some killed outright.

Funny thing is, Snyder never said his films would be exactly canon for any particular comic or time. He said he was "inspired" by Miller which right off tells you where it's going for the most part.

He simply took aspects from different Batman eras and combined them into a conglomerate Batman character that contains many of the attributes and history of the comics but is its own animal...

Like it or not, brutality and killing IS in Batman's history in comics. Just because someone prefers one era over another is no reason to say Snyder doesn't get it or he ruined Batman. He used all available sources and created his own version of Batman for us to experience and learn about.

nothing wrong with that in my book.

 

[The Joker]

Is that a thing? Beans and waffle.? Never heard that one.

Oh yes. Delicious, too.

I am not a big comic reader but these are a few I found quickly. Seems to be all through his history right from number 1.
Some injured - some killed outright.

From the 1939 era, the one year before it was dictated he will never kill or use a gun again.

Read the last panel. "Have I, Robin?". He didn't kill anyone. Ra's Al Ghul was fine.

The Mutant Leader wasn't beaten near to death.

Same as your first example. In fact that's the panel we have to thank for it;

'It wasn’t until the release of Batman #1 (June 1940), a story that featured Batman blasting away at a group of men mutated into monstrous giants by Dr. Hugo Strange, that then editor Whitney Ellsworth decided that Batman shouldn’t kill or use a gun.'

http://www.actsofgeek.com/2014/07/dc100-batmans-gun/

Three things;

1. His mind was being controlled by Hush who put a microchip in his brain when he did brain surgery on Bruce.

2. Joker wasn't even hospitalized. He went straight back to Arkham.

3. That's where this panel is from;

A punch to the face is suddenly life threatening?

 

[souperman]

Oh yes. Delicious, too.



From the 1939 era, the one year before it was dictated he will never kill or use a gun again.



Read the last panel. "Have I, Robin?". He didn't kill anyone. Ra's Al Ghul was fine.

He also says: I knew Robin, But I HAD to do...implying he expected it would kill him...but saying Have I Robin...implies he is afraid maybe he failed and he will return...


The Mutant Leader wasn't beaten near to death. How do you know? He could have a subdural hematoma and die from internal injuries!



Same as your first example. In fact that's the panel we have to thank for it;

'It wasn’t until the release of Batman #1 (June 1940), a story that featured Batman blasting away at a group of men mutated into monstrous giants by Dr. Hugo Strange, that then editor Whitney Ellsworth decided that Batman shouldn’t kill or use a gun.'

http://www.actsofgeek.com/2014/07/dc100-batmans-gun/



Three things;

1. His mind was being controlled by Hush who put a microchip in his brain when he did brain surgery on Bruce.

The same can be said for BvS Batman. The mind control part...either temp insanity or a neurotic compulsion to go Batsh**

2. Joker wasn't even hospitalized. He went straight back to Arkham.

Only because he is a cartoon character!...a real person taking a beating like that would have serious contusions and bruising about the face and abdomen...

3. That's where this panel is from;

A punch to the face is suddenly life threatening?

From BATMAN! Yep!

 

[souperman]

posted this late in the mix of pics so I'll put it here.

Funny thing is, Snyder never said his films would be exactly canon for any particular comic or time. He said he was "inspired" by Miller which right off tells you where it's going for the most part.

He simply took aspects from different Batman eras and combined them into a conglomerate Batman character that contains many of the attributes and history of the comics but is its own animal...

Like it or not, brutality and killing IS in Batman's history in comics if only briefly. Just because someone prefers one era over another is no reason to say Snyder doesn't get it or he ruined Batman. He used all available sources and created his own version of Batman for us to experience and learn about.

nothing wrong with that in my book.

 

[chintai80]

i just see affleck's batman as similar to the 1939 pre-code version of batman.

snyder's mistake was saying in an interview that batfleck kills because frank miller's batman killed in dark knight returns.
and snyder is wrong here because tdkr batman does not kill.

if snyder just straight up said he took his batman from 1939, then people wouldn't be calling him out so much over it.

 

[The Joker]

He also says: I knew Robin, But I HAD to do...implying he expected it would kill him...but saying Have I Robin...implies he is afraid maybe he failed and he will return...

Have you read the story? If you haven't don't make definitive declarations about an out of context panel. I have it. If he expected it to kill him, why would he even say "Have I?" if he didn't believe he was dead. Rhetorical question. He knew Ra's wouldn't die.

How do you know? He could have a subdural hematoma and die from internal injuries!

Because the story states he was returned to jail after his defeat, and his gang broke up and became the Sons of Batman. Nothing implied he was in any fatal condition from Batman's beating.

You're just making things up to try and validate your argument.

The same can be said for BvS Batman. The mind control part...either temp insanity or a neurotic compulsion to go Batsh**

Just when you think you've seen all the straw clutching excuses. No offense, but that is hysterical logic. You read it here first, folks. Batman being an irrational murderous idiot is the equivalent to mind control.

Only because he is a cartoon character!...a real person taking a beating like that would have serious contusions and bruising about the face and abdomen...

What are you talking about? Who's a cartoon character?

From BATMAN! Yep!

You're not even trying to be credible any more.

 

[souperman]

Have you read the story? If you haven't then don't make definitive declarations about an out of context panel. I have it. If he expected it to kill him, why would he even say "Have I?" if he didn't believe he was dead. Rhetorical question. He knew Ra's wouldn't die.



Because the story states he was returned to jail after his defeat, and his gang broke up and became the Sons of Batman. Nothing implied he was in any fatal condition from Batman's beating.

You're just making things up to try and validate your argument.





Just when you think you've seen all the scraping of the bottom of the barrel, straw clutching excuses. No offense, but that is hysterical logic. You read it here first, folks. Batman being an irrational murderous idiot is the equivalent to mind control.



What are you talking about? Who's a cartoon character?



You're not even trying to be credible any more.

For a Joker...you are WAY too serious...Have some fun with it...it feels better.

Who's a cartoon character?t:did you really just say that?

 

[The Joker]

For a Joker...you are WAY too serious...Have some fun with it...it feels better.

 

[souperman]

don't be sad....laugh clown,-laugh.

 

[A Necessary Evil]

Joker, u could say u r.....damaged.


But ben is from south america??? or somthing???

 

[Batsfan1]

"It's a miracle no one was killed"

Hmm.

Does that mean Batman didn't do anything wrong though?

Of course he did something wrong. That's the point of the scene. It was a reckless action that he made in the heat of the moment. But it was without the intention to harm any of them. As opposed to BvS where he just massacres them without a single care for human life in that situation to accomplish his psychotic goal with vicious purposeful premeditation. Have a very great day!

God bless you all!

 

[Batsfan1]

I wanna point out for a moment how awesome I think this panel is. Gordon rocks so much right here to me.

 

[gdw]

I guess the real issue comes down to who and what you believe.

If someone in the film says "I didn't kill, or killed because of a good reason" but the shown scenes contradict that, we have to decide what is true, just like in a mystery movie. Characters lie to us all the time. That's part of the fun of the entertainment. Verbal said he never did nothin...

Of course all this discussion illustrates the varied POVs of people witnessing the very same thing...not very clean cut, is it?

I addressed characters making statements that contradict what is shown, as well as the unreliable narrator, in my original post about this.

 

[souperman]

I addressed characters making statements that contradict what is shown, as well as the unreliable narrator, in my original post about this.

It really comes down to how you experience the "art".

Comics lie to us all the time. Supeman is DEAD. Superman lives!

Is it a lie or just a convenient truth.?

Answer:

 

[The Batman]

....Do people always start critiquing your personality when they can't refute your arguments, or is this a recent thing?

 

[Timebomb]

I wanna point out for a moment how awesome I think this panel is. Gordon rocks so much right here to me.

I agree, this panel speaks volumes about these characters and their relationship.

 

[wnjcwjkk]

I wanna point out for a moment how awesome I think this panel is. Gordon rocks so much right here to me.

I think that panel is a great example of why it was a mistake for Batfleck to be so nonchalant about casualties, be it death by proxy or not. It really is an important part of his mythology. I'm a big fan of BvS, I'm all for a mature, adult version of these characters, I'm all for putting them in no win situations and all that, but they are writers, they can come up with anything that they want to happen, they don't need to show him killing or blood spatter or somebody standing right next to an exploding truck. Batman is not a soldier, he's not contracted by any governing entity, and as that panel illustrates, the good cops in Gotham allow Batman to be Batman because he has a code, regardless of whether he's become more brutal or not. They still could have illustrated that Batman had become darker, more cynical, brutal, hopeless, all that, without him blasting people away (though I liked that he was lethal and used guns in the Knightmare scene).


Having said that, I'm willing to forgive it because I really like the story they're trying to tell

 

[Timebomb]

I think that panel is a great example of why it was a mistake for Batfleck to be so nonchalant about casualties, be it death by proxy or not. It really is an important part of his mythology. I'm a big fan of BvS, I'm all for a mature, adult version of these characters, I'm all for putting them in no win situations and all that, but they are writers, they can come up with anything that they want to happen, they don't need to show him killing or blood spatter or somebody standing right next to an exploding truck. Batman is not a soldier, he's not contracted by any governing entity, and as that panel illustrates, the good cops in Gotham allow Batman to be Batman because he has a code, regardless of whether he's become more brutal or not. They still could have illustrated that Batman had become darker, more cynical, brutal, hopeless, all that, without him blasting people away (though I liked that he was lethal and used guns in the Knightmare scene).


Having said that, I'm willing to forgive it because I really like the story they're trying to tell

Well said. However, I unfortunately do not like the universe they are building and I hope there is something in the future that can salvage it. Really sad moment happened in my life yesterday when I was at a local Target and walked right by the display stand with all the copies of the movie. Never thought I'd see the day that we would get these heroes in a movie together let alone not like it and not even buy it. Sad for me at least.