BvS All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion (TAG SPOILERS) - - - - - - Part 307

[Kevin_28]

Yes. It's amazing what people choose to see (or not to see) when it comes to BvS.

Yes that's true. It's just the way I see it. I think that's why the conversation around it has persisted for so long at least within this community. I generally don't like to get into back and forths though.

 

[Aurakles]

The way I understood it, it isn't that he doesn't want to interact with humanity, it's that he's just very cautious about doing so.
Often Superman fans refer to the "world of cardboard" speech from JLU, MOS and BVS take that idea a little further, with him holding back more than just physically.
Over on the Justice League thread there has been some discussion of the Snyder Cult, toxic fandom, of people succumbing to hero worship and being abusive to others. We've seen this happen with all sorts of pop culture and political figures, where people are drawn to idols and do terrible things in their name, often completely against the wishes and intentions of those idols.
Superman would be a magnet for this kind of phenomenon and Pa Kent explains to Clark at an early age that his very existence will change the world. BVS further explores the idea of unintended consequences, how a seemingly benevolent act can have unforeseen and even tragic results.
I see this Superman as one who is under a lot of pressure to always be on his best behaviour, to be very careful and cautious, because a single absentminded act, a poorly worded statement could lead to mobs on the streets.
I imagine he would love to be more of a friendly neighbourhood Superman, but is afraid that if he isn't calm and measured and collected, he might say or do something that will be misinterpreted and cause someone, somewhere, harm.

(P.S. This is not a coded defense of Trump, I believe he knew exactly what he was doing and the consequences were entirely intentionally)

 

[Aurakles]

Regarding the "my world" question, it's the culmination of a running motif going back to MOS, with the conversation between Lois and Clark in the military base.
"It's not an S, on my world it means hope."
It crops up several times in BVS;‎
"on this world, every act is a political act"
"You don't owe this world a thing"
"She was my world, and you took her from me"‎
"It did on my world, my world doesn't exist anymore"
"She reminded me there's good in this world"‎
"No one stays good in this world"
"This is my world, you are my world"‎
‎
I think this is quite deliberate. The phrase is generally used to denigrate the Earth, to paint it as harsh, cynical and undeserving. After the Capitol bombing Superman rejects it, in his despair questioning whether the dreams of his fathers could ever be fulfilled in a world as rotten as this one.
So, I see "This is my world" as Clark reaffirming his belief in the idea of Superman, and recommitting himself to the Earth and it's people.
The "You are my world" to Lois both is and isn't about Lois specifically. Just as Superman is a beacon of hope to the world, Lois is a beacon of hope to Superman. Just as Martha did for Jonathan, she exemplifies the idea that there is good in this world. That it is worth protecting not just because of Lois in particular, but all those like her, and all those who could be like her. She is his hero, she represents what he loves about humanity.

 

[DKDetective]

There is no "love for humanity" in that line, imo. None. It read as pure cynicism to me, and represents his whole increasingly pessimistic worldview in the film. It's no shocker he tells Lois "You're my world" at the end - because he's seemingly given up on everybody else, and she's the only thing making it worth saving to him.


Wow, way to completely twist @TheVileOne 's argument to make a straw man. No one mentioned perfection. No one's talking about perfection. The discussion is about goodness, which as you say yourself is not an absolute. The line isn't "No one stays perfect in this world." "Good" =/= "Perfect." Everyone has flaws and failings and moments of doubt, but PLENTY of people stay good in this world, and do their best to do the right thing. Sometimes they fail or make the wrong choice, but that doesn't mean they can't stay good, and keep striving to do better and do right by their fellow man. To suggest otherwise is a nihilistic and...sad view, imo. And to me, the whole point of Superman is that he's supposed to be the best of us, and SEE the best in us, even when we can't. Nihilism is not supposed to be in his make up. That's what truly makes him super, imo, not his powers, and he got it from the Kents. So yes, I think he should stay good, and always believe in mankind's capacity to do so. That doesn't mean stay perfect or make only the right choices, and you suggesting otherwise is simply an attempt to tear down a perfectly valid argument using an argument nobody actually made. Let's not pretend that line was referring to any expectations of "diamond absolutes." I don't know anyone who took the line to mean "nobody's perfect." It looked to me like it was meant to indicate Superman was giving up, and expressing a willingness to abandon his hope for mankind and do something heinous because someone kidnapped his mom. Snyder can dress it up in "this is the real world" all he likes, but that ain't Superman to me, sorry. You know, Lois & Clark presented a similar quandary for Supes - his parents were kidnapped, and he was blackmailed into and willing to break the law to save them - stealing some diamonds - figuring he could catch the bad guys and return the diamonds after his parents were safe...UNTIL the demands escalated to the point of telling him to hurt someone else. And that was a line he was unwilling to cross, even to save his parents, because he KNEW his parents would never want that. The Superman I know and want to see in films and TV believed his parents were good to the end. And he believes the same of Jimmy, Lois, Lana, etc. Even when they make bad choices, he believed they were still good. So yes, he believes people can stay good in this world, because he's seen it firsthand.

Snyder loves to present these "absolute" choices that are completely unearned (snapping Zod's neck, letting Jonathan die, fighting Batman), and pretend like they're the only choice, but they're lazily constructed and don't show the character making a true effort to find other solutions (when the audience is constantly saying, "why didn't he do this? Or this?" then you didn't sell them on a character's choice or lack thereof), the way many feel a character like Superman should, and would in the comics and other media. It's like these scenarios were created just to drag the character down to our lowest level and make him less aspirational. If that works for you, cool. But I personally feel it flies in the face of everything he was created to represent.

And unfortunately, since we've been over this many times before, including a previous temp ban, you seem incapable of making your arguments without suggesting that other posters view the character or film "wrong," "incorrectly," or "inaccurately." You are not the authority on the character or this film that you seem to think you are. No one is. You are not a bigger fan than anyone here. You do not see more clearly than anyone here. You do not have some greater understanding. And you don't appear able to make your arguments without suggesting such a reality. And since you can't make your arguments without doing that very basic thing we've asked of you multiple times, then you won't be making anymore arguments here. We had a User Note on your account specifically saying "NO MORE WARNINGS" for this exact behavior, so I'm sorry, but I'm afraid this is your final strike.

For any other posters reading this, if you'd like a great example of how to defend BvS respectfully, without pretending your view is the only factually accurate view, and without coming across hella condescending toward those who feel differently, I suggest you look no further than @Aurakles ' recent postings in this thread.

You forgot something...

View attachment 42355

Given @flickchick85's signature ban move, I think this is a touch more her style and most appropriate for this particular required action...

 

[SupermanFan]

Given @flickchick85's signature ban move, I think this is a touch more her style and most appropriate for this particular required action...

Great choice haha

 

[Spider-Fan]

That's fair. I see it as two distinctly different thoughts. This is my world is him accepting his place here for the good and the bad. He was put through the wringer in this movie. You are my world is a common romantic phrase. I wouldn't say that anyone who uses that phrase towards someone also means they don't see themselves as part of this world.

I'll add a bit more as well. Given the context of his conversation with his father, and then him seeing Batman turn around from his evil intent to murder Superman, and go out of his way to save his mother, I would say that it solidified his father's statement of there being "good in this world".

Yeah, I am that guy joining a conversation that has been dead for weeks

I think it is a clunky line given that the popular opinion of it is that Lois was was his world and mainly what he cared about. I said elsewhere I don't think Zack is good at communicating his thoughts through dialogue. There is lots of clunky dialogue in both MoS and BvS. I think Snyder's intent was that he is saying Earth is his world and he has accepted that with the "This is my world" and the "You are my world" was him saying goodbye because he knew he was about to die. But again, I think this could easily have been more clear with better dialogue.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

As Aurakles explains, the ‘This is my world, YOU are my world’ line goes back to the conversation Clark has with his dad on the mountain top. Jonathan explains he had traumatic dreams about a childhood experience he had where he thought doing the right thing had made him a hero, but it turned out he just made the flood someone elses problem and animals suffered and died because of it. Superman is questioning after the Capitol bombing his actions, however good natured, as they are leading to people suffering and dying and he feels guilty about it just like Jonathan did as a child when he saved his farm but destroyed another. Martha stopped those nightmares and gave him an anchor to the belief of good in a world that could be very cruel, Superman realises by the end that Lois is that exact same thing for him. Hence he is still willing to fight and die for all humanity, as Lois is his anchor to this world.

Batman also gains a new found belief in Mankind following Superman’s sacrifice also, ‘we can do better, we will.’

 

[Kevin_28]

Yeah, I am that guy joining a conversation that has been dead for weeks

I think it is a clunky line given that the popular opinion of it is that Lois was was his world and mainly what he cared about. I said elsewhere I don't think Zack is good at communicating his thoughts through dialogue. There is lots of clunky dialogue in both MoS and BvS. I think Snyder's intent was that he is saying Earth is his world and he has accepted that with the "This is my world" and the "You are my world" was him saying goodbye because he knew he was about to die. But again, I think this could easily have been more clear with better dialogue.

Agreed. I definitely think the writing is clunky at times. I suppose it also can be part of how Terrio wrote it as well.

 

[idiot09]

Snyder took away the "power fantasy" element of Superman...which is very important for a lot of fans. "Why couldnt he find another way? Why did he have to make the hard choice". All the criticisms I see, that's what it boils down to in the end. If Superman being put in a tough choice with no right options is convenient writing, so is writing a way out for him without any consequences. Whether these things are executed well or are earned is obviously subjective.



In Snyder's worldview, "heroism" is something fundamentally un-enjoyable. He doesnt glorify it. Its a responsibility, which is not always glorious or rewarding. Its a sacrifice you are making, you are letting go of your wants and needs, for the good of others. You might get scars and get hurt in the battle, but your people will live. Seen in this light, it stops being a power fantasy and starts being a burden no-one could possibly want. You can call that pessimistic, or you can call that realistic. So while some say its a misreading of the character, I think it elevates the character, and shines a new light on him. Way I see it, that makes Superman more heroic than ever before.

So while many were offended by that choice, but in doing so, he created a version of the character that struck a real emotional chord with people all around the world. I think Snyder understands the essence of Superman on a very profound level, that very few do. That's why I think his version had such a personal effect on so many people, because its such a unique personal take. Its not a safe & palatable pop culture version. Depicting Superman as the ultimate immigrant figure has also resonated with tons of folks, including me.

 

[Aurakles]

Ok, I'm going to preface this with the disclaimer that I am not saying that I or Snyder fans are smarter than others, or are enlightened cinephiles.
I say this because there are Snyder fans out there who mock the intelligence of others, see themselves as better and it embarrasses me to be associated with them.

However, Snyder's films are often much lighter on exposition than most blockbusters, they rely more on visual cues and artistic and cinematic references. In interviews both Zack and Deborah Snyder have said they want people to spend time thinking about their movies after watching. These filmmakers want us to actively reconsider our gut reactions, to question what it all meant.
Maybe at first we might take to a line to mean X, but they want us to look back and ponder whether it might have meant Y instead.

It seems to me Snyder actively wants discussion like this to figure out exactly what "You are my world." means.

Lack of clarity and ambiguity should not always been seen as a fault, it could be seen as realism. People choose their words poorly and are misunderstood and misconstrued all the time. Historians are constantly studying and restudying the events of the past and struggling to agree even about even well documentmented figures. Determining what someone really means can often be difficult, it's a real world skill that needs to be honed through practice. The film itself looks at this, with Superman and Batman both coming to the wrong conclusions about the other, and later having to re-evaluate.

A lot of big hollywood films try to make themselves as clear and easy to understand as possible, BVS doesn't do this, it asks the audience to do some of the work, to exercise muscles that don't get a lot of use.

Again, I'm not claiming to be a genius, that I instantly understood all of the depth which went over other people's heads. I don't believe liking or not liking BVS is any indication of someone's intelligence. There was a lot I missed, I've spent time thinking about the film, listening to others opinions on it, having discussions like this. Which is what we were supposed to do.

 

[idiot09]

Lack of clarity and ambiguity should not always been seen as a fault, it could be seen as realism.

Snyder once said in one of his interviews that he doesnt shoot for realism, he shoots for heightened realism. He is interested in showing the best of the world, and the worst of the world, and nothing in between. Its the opposite of the philosophical approach of someone like say Linklater. He goes against naturalism, which I think is interesting. Its obvious why he likes Excalibur.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Can anyone fill me in on this new 4K version we are getting please. I thought the existing one looked good. But do we get more on the screen in the new version or is it just colour grading issues that are changed?

 

[idiot09]

Can anyone fill me in on this new 4K version we are getting please. I thought the existing one looked good. But do we get more on the screen in the new version or is it just colour grading issues that are changed?

 

[idiot09]

Really cool article about the socio political themes about BvS, and how they are much more relevant in 2021.

 

[Sogno]

Really cool article about the socio political themes about BvS, and how they are much more relevant in 2021.

They were always relevant.

 

[Sogno]

How many minutes of the remastered will be in the new aspect ratio?

 

[idiot09]

How many minutes of the remastered will be in the new aspect ratio?

Only the IMAX sequences i.e Wayne Funeral, Knightmare, Batman v Superman fight, Superman funeral end sequence.

 

[Sogno]

Only the IMAX sequences i.e Wayne Funeral, Knightmare, Batman v Superman fight, Superman funeral end sequence.

Hope we'll get it outside of the USA.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Awesome thanks, got my previous 4K version up on eBay.

Hope we'll get it outside of the USA.

We are getting it here in the UK at the end of April.

 

[Sogno]

[QUOTE="AVEITWITHJAMON, post: 38519337, member:
We are getting it here in the UK at the end of April.[/QUOTE]
I'm italian. Hopefully we'll get it too.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I'm italian. Hopefully we'll get it too.

Finger crossed buddy

 

[Prison Mike]

Happy 5 year anniversary BvS!!

 

[Sogno]

Finger crossed buddy

Yes!

 

[Dr.]

Question:

Content wise, is the recent 4K version of the Ultimate Edition identical to the older Blu-ray?

 

[kguillou]

Just got my 4k blu ray. Although I am slightly disappointed (my own fault) I thought the whole movie was going to be in the new aspect ratio but its only like 4 scenes.