A New Era for the Wrestling Thread

[Dr. Evil]

 

[NDX]

UNIDENTIFIED FLYING OPPONENT!

I just marked out hard for Cesaro just now. Holy ****, seeing a UFO was amazing. I don't think he's done that since I last saw him at ROH.

 

[NDX]

Xavier Woods would be a damn good heel champ if they'd let him.

He'd have to bring back the Iron Sheik boots for that.

 

[NDX]

I want to write a question in to Cornette's Drive-Thru now where I ask him about "Sable's Undertaker-like Wrestlemania win streak" to see if I can make him spontaneously combust with rage.

Do it.

 

[Hunter Rider]

 

[javonstokess]

I'm pretty sure whatever Sasha's feud this time next year for WM it will involve her opponent ridiculing her for being 0-fer at the Grandest Stage of them All.

 

[javonstokess]

I know it was mentioned during the broadcast last night, but I think there is an argument that can be made for Sasha being amongst the absolute best ever. Think about some of the matches and feuds she's been a part of; now she just main evented Wrestlemania. The resume is sparkling...except for the losses, but there are clearly politics involved.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

The weather is even worse tonight. Will we get night 2?

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I know it was mentioned during the broadcast last night, but I think there is an argument that can be made for Sasha being amongst the absolute best ever. Think about some of the matches and feuds she's been a part of; now she just main evented Wrestlemania. The resume is sparkling...except for the losses, but there are clearly politics involved.

That is what I am thinking about. I don't think Sasha is a great worker. She's okay, rather good at times. And I think most of her feuds are just okay, with the exception of Bayley. Those have been rather good, but that is also Bayley. Who is also a lot better worker then Sasha.

If we are talking matches, feuds, and accomplishment the ranking in the WWE is basically:

1. Charlotte
2. Asuka
3. Becky
4. Bayley
5. Sasha

Asuka has literally done everything, while reigning mutiple times. She has good matches with everyone, and did it both in NXT and on the main roster. In singles competition and as a tag team. Her and Charlotte completely own Sasha in that regard. Becky spent 18 months the legit #1 draw and face of the company in the WWE. When she comes back, she be right back at the top. Bayley had last year to go along with her NXT run. But if I was just getting rid of kayfabe, Sasha probably doesn't make my top 10. I watch NXT. I see what those women are capable of. They smoke Sasha in terms of work rate and character. Io is the best women I have ever seen wrestle and she had made it work in the WWE ecosystem so far. Her transition between characters, and face/heel to Austin like "just Io" was fantastic, and her ring work is light years ahead of everyone else, including Asuka and Charlotte. That doesn't mean I don't like Sasha. I do. But Sasha is a botch machine, who tries things she's just not that physically capable of all the time. Her offense lacks impact, and is very convoluted at times. Her frog splash is painfully bad, as is her take on the crossface, which stretches all realms of reasoning, because for some reason she refuses the trap the arm in any meaningful way. She is much better as a heel, but she also spends a lot of time as a lame face and her acting isn't up for it. Sasha reminds me of Trish and Lita. Two women I definitely appreciate. But in terms of actually being the wrestling gods the WWE makes them out to be, nah.

So if we are doing this Kayfabe wise, sure. She is technically up there as the proper era of women's wrestling is rather new, but I also say she clearly has no place in the top 3 slots. But I have never judged it like that. Otherwise I'd have to have the likes of Hogan, HHH, Orton and Cena in my top 5-10. Which I definitely don't.

 

[Dr. Evil]

Sasha is 0-6 at Mania and yet this is one Sasha Mania loss I don't have any issues with.

 

[Hunter Rider]

 

[Hunter Rider]

 

[javonstokess]

That is what I am thinking about. I don't think Sasha is a great worker. She's okay, rather good at times. And I think most of her feuds are just okay, with the exception of Bayley. Those have been rather good, but that is also Bayley. Who is also a lot better worker then Sasha.

If we are talking matches, feuds, and accomplishment the ranking in the WWE is basically:

1. Charlotte
2. Asuka
3. Becky
4. Bayley
5. Sasha

Asuka has literally done everything, while reigning mutiple times. She has good matches with everyone, and did it both in NXT and on the main roster. In singles competition and as a tag team. Her and Charlotte completely own Sasha in that regard. Becky spent 18 months the legit #1 draw and face of the company in the WWE. When she comes back, she be right back at the top. Bayley had last year to go along with her NXT run. But if I was just getting rid of kayfabe, Sasha probably doesn't make my top 10. I watch NXT. I see what those women are capable of. They smoke Sasha in terms of work rate and character. Io is the best women I have ever seen wrestle and she had made it work in the WWE ecosystem so far. Her transition between characters, and face/heel to Austin like "just Io" was fantastic, and her ring work is light years ahead of everyone else, including Asuka and Charlotte. That doesn't mean I don't like Sasha. I do. But Sasha is a botch machine, who tries things she's just not that physically capable of all the time. Her offense lacks impact, and is very convoluted at times. Her frog splash is painfully bad, as is her take on the crossface, which stretches all realms of reasoning, because for some reason she refuses the trap the arm in any meaningful way. She is much better as a heel, but she also spends a lot of time as a lame face and her acting isn't up for it. Sasha reminds me of Trish and Lita. Two women I definitely appreciate. But in terms of actually being the wrestling gods the WWE makes them out to be, nah.

So if we are doing this Kayfabe wise, sure. She is technically up there as the proper era of women's wrestling is rather new, but I also say she clearly has no place in the top 3 slots. But I have never judged it like that. Otherwise I'd have to have the likes of Hogan, HHH, Orton and Cena in my top 5-10. Which I definitely don't.

So I disagree, of course.

I think Charlotte is massively overrated. She's a good worker, but it's her last name which carries her. Asuka's a great worker, but she's not a talker. Her whole deal is her "aura". Lynch is a great worker too, but she floundered around a bit until she hit her stride, but, even then, she was cooling down right before she left due to her pregnancy. Bayley's a great worker, too, who just recently hit a real stride, but she's no where near as comfortable in the heel role that Sasha is.

FWIW, I'm not saying Sasha's "better" than them all, but she's definitely not 5 of that list.

No offense to you or anyone else, but I think we think we know more about who's a great "worker" and the truth is Sasha's had great feuds with all these women that have helped define either of them. Name another good feud Bayley's done that didn't include Sasha that was memorable AND good. Same with Charlotte. At least Becky has had great feuds with Charlotte, Rousey and Nia Jax. Sasha has literally had iconic matches with all 4 women and now Belair and had matches that no other woman has done.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

So I disagree, of course.

I think Charlotte is massively overrated. She's a good worker, but it's her last name which carries her. Asuka's a great worker, but she's not a talker. Her whole deal is her "aura". Lynch is a great worker too, but she floundered around a bit until she hit her stride, but, even then, she was cooling down right before she left due to her pregnancy. Bayley's a great worker, too, who just recently hit a real stride, but she's no where near as comfortable in the heel role that Sasha is.

FWIW, I'm not saying Sasha's "better" than them all, but she's definitely not 5 of that list.

No offense to you or anyone else, but I think we think we know more about who's a great "worker" and the truth is Sasha's had great feuds with all these women that have helped define either of them. Name another good feud Bayley's done that didn't include Sasha that was memorable AND good. Same with Charlotte. At least Becky has had great feuds with Charlotte, Rousey and Nia Jax. Sasha has literally had iconic matches with all 4 women and now Belair and had matches that no other woman has done.

Charlotte is great in the ring imo. She has the things that make any worker imo. Impactful offense, psychology, speed, and general physicalness that sells a fight. When she brawled with Rousey, she didn't feel like she could be put in a grave if Rousey decided to. Sasha, not so much.

Asuka is fantastic talker and character person. Just because she doesn't speak English well, doesn't mean she can't talk. Her natural charisma comes through here in the US.

Becky's great accomplishment to me is how she forced herself into the main event through sheer force of personality. The WWE treated Becky way worse then say Sasha for years. She didn't leave. She stayed and was still somehow over enough to get the crowd to force her into the main event of Wrestlemania. They made them say no to over a year's worth of planning with Charlotte and Ronda. That's Austin level charisma. I have heard you argue Sasha is the most popular, but if that was the case, why did that never happen with her, especially with how bad you said they treated her? She never had that American Dragon movement, unlike Becky.

Bayley is a better face then Sasha, and a better heel then Sasha. Definitely a better worker as well.

With all do respect, you treat Sasha like Meltzer does Tokyo Dome matches. The big difference is, those are actually some of the greatest wrestling matches of all time that he adds too much emphasize on the Dome to. Sasha doesn't have those. At all.

When did Sasha define Becky, Asuka or Charlotte? You can argue Bayley, but even there Bayley defined herself with her heel run, that elevated her.

Charlotte's best feud and work came with Becky and Asuka. Arguably her best "wrestling match" came with Rhea.

Asuka has been defined by being Asuka from the very beginning.

Becky and Sasha didn't even feud until Becky was the Man.

You say Becky was losing steam, and yet somehow the crowd never turned on her.

It amazes me that you can complain about Sasha's booking all the time, and then come with, "but she had great feuds and matches". It's like, what grading curve are you judging these on?

I have a pretty decent track record with workers. I liked guys like Austin, Malenko, Eddie, Bryan, Joe, Jericho and others before it was cool. Not that it matters. It's still all opinion. But I can tell the difference in quality between an Io and Rhea who had proper matches with someone super green out of the performance center and talking about Sasha having great matches with better workers, who have had better matches with others, including each other. None of which I would call great for Sasha by the way, other then that first one with Bayley back in NXT.

Oh, and Sasha still can't do a frog splash. Very green Dominic Guerrero can though. I saw it Friday night.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I noticed it a bit last night, but the crowd booing Hogan and cheering Titus felt way more apparent tonight.

They are starting with Orton/Fiend. Interesting...

Maybe we won't start on time. Orton took six years to make his entrance.

Now that is a Mania entrance.

No not the red light!

Newish Fiend mask is awesome. Or maybe it looks newish because I haven't seen it in ages. I love that he seems crazier, more vocal, more physical.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

This is Mania. You are suppose to do the conclusion at Mania, not just keep teasing! No **** the fans are pissed.

Start the night with a flat finish that confuses the fans, then follow it with the poor women's tag match. Setting expectations low.

If Nat, Tamina and Nia would all just retire, the WWE would be a better, safer, place.

This tag title match is legit one of the worst matches I have ever seen at Mania. It's a horror show, full of slow, botched, and terrible work. Anything Shayna tries, the others screw up.

And Nat and Tamina are suppose to be the faces?

Oh thank the Maker, they didn't win. I'll take awful Nia as champ over that.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Kevin Steen beats El Generico in their typical very good match. But what made it? The crowd begging for and getting the Stunner on a Paul brother.

I enjoyed the Riddle, RVD and Great Khali segment. That was sweet.

Riddle/Sheamus was very good, with a very big botch. That ending was pretty sweet though.

Big E and Apollo was good, but felt short. The last 3 have all felt that way. Big E losing in his home town sucked, but very WWE. I do think it is hilarious that Apollo apparently has an entire fake African stable gimmick going. This would annoy me, if he didn't seem totally into it.

I am so curious. Are they just trying to finish by 8/11 pm, or do they have a big surprise for us tonight. Like is Becky showing up.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

The Asuka/Rhea package was hilarious, emphasizing there is no story here.

Rhea has a WM entrance, without a proper main roster match since she moved up. That's nuts.

Rhea and Asuka was very good, and Rhea gets the title. Happy for her and Asuka. No Becky.

There is something weird about tonight. It feels like everyone is being asked to sprint. The longest match I think was the women's tag match. Outside of the main event going super long, are they really just trying to end it early?

 

[javonstokess]

Someone explain to me again why Sheamus needed to win the US title?

 

[Mister J]

I'm really gonna need Sasha and Asuka to win at Mania at some point.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I'm really gonna need Sasha and Asuka to win at Mania at some point.

They should wrestle each other next year. Then they can have a 60 min draw.

The Bellas? I keep hoping for Becky, and they had Bayley get beat up by the Bellas, which is of course getting booed. There was no way Bayley wasn't the face in that situation. Good ****ing lord.

If they decided on no Becky because it leaked, and they save it for no fans, they are somehow dumber then even I imagined they were.

 

[Mister J]

Never really cared for the Bellas. Either one.

 

[javonstokess]

Charlotte is great in the ring imo. She has the things that make any worker imo. Impactful offense, psychology, speed, and general physicalness that sells a fight. When she brawled with Rousey, she didn't feel like she could be put in a grave if Rousey decided to. Sasha, not so much.

Yeah, I don't think that whole "physicalness that sells a fight". Lynch ain't that much bigger than Sasha. Once again, agree to disagree on this.

Asuka is fantastic talker and character person. Just because she doesn't speak English well, doesn't mean she can't talk. Her natural charisma comes through here in the US.

I'm not saying she doesn't have a great character, but it's limited by her not being able to speak English well. Again, agree to disagree.

Becky's great accomplishment to me is how she forced herself into the main event through sheer force of personality. The WWE treated Becky way worse then say Sasha for years. She didn't leave. She stayed and was still somehow over enough to get the crowd to force her into the main event of Wrestlemania. They made them say no to over a year's worth of planning with Charlotte and Ronda. That's Austin level charisma. I have heard you argue Sasha is the most popular, but if that was the case, why did that never happen with her, especially with how bad you said they treated her? She never had that American Dragon movement, unlike Becky.

To be fair, when WWE finally pushed Lynch they never had her lose her title on her first defense either. Sasha literally had every push derailed by WWE management (mostly for the advancement of Charlotte Flair or Rhonda Rousey). Again, I'm not saying anyone is "better" than the other, I'm just saying Sasha's better than folks want to give her credit.

Bayley is a better face then Sasha, and a better heel then Sasha. Definitely a better worker as well.

LMAO No way is Bayley been a better face or heel on the main roster than Sasha. Hell, Bayley didn't REALLY get over at being a heel until she was teamed up with Sasha. Also, Bayley's face run on the main roster feel flat pretty quickly. To each his/her own, though...

With all do respect, you treat Sasha like Meltzer does Tokyo Dome matches. The big difference is, those are actually some of the greatest wrestling matches of all time that he adds too much emphasize on the Dome to. Sasha doesn't have those. At all.

All I did was say "Check the resume", you took of that what you will.

When did Sasha define Becky, Asuka or Charlotte? You can argue Bayley, but even there Bayley defined herself with her heel run, that elevated her.

Charlotte's best feud and work came with Becky and Asuka. Arguably her best "wrestling match" came with Rhea.

Asuka has been defined by being Asuka from the very beginning.

Becky and Sasha didn't even feud until Becky was the Man.

Charlotte's first big feud was against Sasha. They main evented Raw and a friggin' PPV and were the first women to have a HIAC match. Asuka and Sasha ALSO had a couple of great feuds. Bayley and Sasha are pretty much defined by their feud. I already made the point that Becky had great feuds apart from just Sasha.

You say Becky was losing steam, and yet somehow the crowd never turned on her.

Who said anything about the crowd turning on her?

It amazes me that you can complain about Sasha's booking all the time, and then come with, "but she had great feuds and matches". It's like, what grading curve are you judging these on?

I'm sorry, but I didn't know that having great matches and great booking were mutually exclusive. So you think constantly losing your 1st title defense is good booking? Going 0-6 in WMs is a good thing? If so, I'll just agree to disagree again.

I have a pretty decent track record with workers. I liked guys like Austin, Malenko, Eddie, Bryan, Joe, Jericho and others before it was cool. Not that it matters. It's still all opinion. But I can tell the difference in quality between an Io and Rhea who had proper matches with someone super green out of the performance center and talking about Sasha having great matches with better workers, who have had better matches with others, including each other. None of which I would call great for Sasha by the way, other then that first one with Bayley back in NXT.

Then I guess we have a difference of opinion. Fair enough.

Oh, and Sasha still can't do a frog splash. Very green Dominic Guerrero can though. I saw it Friday night.

Yup, cause none of those other 4 ladies have ever botched a move. Good talk though...

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Never really cared for the Bellas. Either one.

I definitely had crushes on them, but in this era they feel like dinosaurs. Dinosaurs they just used to crap on Bayley.

The fans booing the Fiend video packages sums up tonight. Very weird.

 

[javonstokess]

Kinda shocked that they had 2 NXT call ups win titles at WM. Not sure if I would have put the title on Ripley so quickly, but, oh well.