Arkham MAX and (Matt Reeves-produced?) spin-offs

[emielaen]

Lmao the vernacular I’m seeing about Gunn is so biting and funny. Now he stole it.

He could’ve just outright canned it as an idea altogether yet it’s being produced by the same guy and presumably crafted by the same guy.

 

[Invader Joker]

Lmao the vernacular I’m seeing about Gunn is so biting and funny. Now he stole it.

He could’ve just outright canned it as an idea altogether yet it’s being produced by the same guy and presumably crafted by the same guy.

One possibility I just thought about is that maybe when developing it Matt decided the show might work best as a multi season show that can actually run on and on instead of a simple 8 hour miniseries, and obviously that format works a lot better for something for the DCU. There are dozens and dozens of reasons why Matt himself could've decided it no longer made sense for the Batverse upon developing it further. Why everyone thinks that Gunn would steal it instead is beyond me.

 

[Da-Scribe]

The reality is that this project probably went through a several different iterations as time went on. And its development was happening at the same time Zaslav was restructuring the DC universe. Along with that are the delayed nature of press releases. An an example, my old company hired a Chief Growth Officer in December of 2022 but didn't publicly announce it in the trades until March of 2023. A similar thing happened with the Chief Media Officer who worked partially on the business for a month or so before being officially announced.

All that's to say, it's plausible Gunn was working on the DCU in some capacity prior to his official Nov 2022 start or even the Oct 2022 announcement. And even if he wasn't, given the fact Zaslav was clearly making efforts (for better or for worse) to streamline DC's film catalogue, it's also plausible he got Reeves to (or that Reeves willingly chose to) alter the Arkham show to fit within the shared universe model.

 

[emielaen]

Which all makes more sense than Gunn forcing Reeves to do something, or stealing his show, or making him compromise, as if we don't have history of Reeves walking away from WB when he wasn't able to do what he wanted prior to being hired for The Batman and holding strong through other regime changes while keeping his work his own.

I think, ultimately, we will get Penguin, Part II, spin-off #2, Part III.

 

[Filmfreak]

Which all makes more sense than Gunn forcing Reeves to do something, or stealing his show, or making him compromise, as if we don't have history of Reeves walking away from WB when he wasn't able to do what he wanted prior to being hired for The Batman and holding strong through other regime changes while keeping his work his own.

Compromising is part of the game. All directors do that up to a level. This is not his show and nobody is saying he's doing something he absolutely hates because they are pressuring him. What is an absolute logical, in fact possibly the most logical, scenario is that Gunn told Reeves that he would prefer to not greenlight any future Batman spin-offs in general in a separate universe from now on, or the Arkham one in specific for some reason, and Reeves thought "instead of cancelling it or not being a part of it at all, I could try and help do something cool in a shared universe". Not being his first choice is compromising. But he could prefer doing something else and still care enough to do that too.

I think, ultimately, we will get Penguin, Part II, spin-off #2, Part III.

I doubt that but I'd like to be wrong. And everything is going to depend on the success of both future Battinson universe entries and that of the DCU now that it's starting.

 

[Invader Joker]

Compromising is part of the game. All directors do that up to a level. This is not his show and nobody is saying he's doing something he absolutely hates because they are pressuring him. What is an absolute logical, in fact possibly the most logical, scenario is that Gunn told Reeves that he would prefer to not greenlight any future Batman spin-offs in general in a separate universe from now on, or the Arkham one in specific for some reason, and Reeves thought "instead of cancelling it or not being a part of it at all, I could try and help do something cool in a shared universe". Not being his first choice is compromising. But he could prefer doing something else and still care enough to do that too.

The other logical scenario is that as they developed the show and as Matt met with showrunners he realized the show would work better with a more established Batman with a huge rogues gallery since his Batman barely has any rogues to begin with and the ones that are in Arkham (Joker and Riddler) he may have figured out a better story to tell regarding them in the sequel. Realizing that, and realizing the fact that Gunn is about to set up a hyper established Batman, he offered it as part of the DCU. Either way there is no reason to be doom and gloom about anything.

I doubt that but I'd like to be wrong. And everything is going to depend on the success of both future Battinson universe entries and that of the DCU now that it's starting.

If The Penguin is well received and succesful there is no reason they wouldn't do another spin-off set in the Battinson universe especially since... it's streaming. Why would Gunn lose any sleep over spin-off streaming shows?

 

[Filmfreak]

The other logical scenario is that as they developed the show and as Matt met with showrunners he realized the show would work better with a more established Batman with a huge rogues gallery since his Batman barely has any rogues to begin with and the ones that are in Arkham (Joker and Riddler) he may have figured out a better story to tell regarding them in the sequel. Realizing that, and realizing the fact that Gunn is about to set up a hyper established Batman, he offered it as part of the DCU. Either way there is no reason to be doom and gloom about anything.

And yet I still don't buy that Reeves would prefer to develop anything outside his own universe where he has set the template and he can have far fewer restrictions. And like I said before, I sincerely doubt that if the project was to be part of DCU from the moment Gunn took over, since he didn't announced it with the rest of the slate, which included things that didn't have anyone at the helm.

If The Penguin is well received and succesful there is no reason they wouldn't do another spin-off set in the Battinson universe especially since... it's streaming. Why would Gunn lose any sleep over spin-off streaming shows?

If Penguin does well and the DCU doesn't, then yes, I can see them continuing with more. This is literally what I said. Otherwise Gunn said since day one that he wants them all connected, movies, shows, animation, even video games, so I can certainly see him not wanting to greenlight anything outside that universe from now on. Even more so Zaslav has said since day one that he wants the MCU model and that it doesn't make sense to not have everything connected. A big indicator is that there hasn't been any Elseworld project being developed since both of them took over, not even the black Superman film that was initially reported that it was still happening, back in January.

 

[Pennywise]

 

[Eddie Dean]

Je suis Napoleon!

 

[emielaen]

And everything is going to depend on the success of both future Battinson universe entries and that of the DCU now that it's starting.

Well yeah, that goes w/o saying.

I only brought up those different scenarios bc that's what others are jumping to in order to paint the situation in a negative light regarding Reeves and Gunn's partnership. I don't believe they had to go back and forth over its existence or usher some ultimatum. In the end, like I've been saying, the potential quality of this show won't really hinge on how it came to be anyway.

 

[Invader Joker]

And yet I still don't buy that Reeves would prefer to develop anything outside his own universe where he has set the template and he can have far fewer restrictions. And like I said before, I sincerely doubt that if the project was to be part of DCU from the moment Gunn took over, since he didn't announced it with the rest of the slate, which included things that didn't have anyone at the helm.

I can 100% buy that Reeves would prefer to develop it outside his own universe if developing it outside his universe meant more freedom for him to do certain things in the sequel, especially as it pertains to Joker and Riddler. Also, you are forgetting the other part of the equation here which is the showrunner, and if he simply realized it'd make for a better show. In the process of meeting with people, it's 100% plausible that Reeves immediately came to realize that there were 2 avenues to take with this show:
1. Do a show where the showrunner would be able to use as many rogues as they wish and do all sorts of interesting things with them. Which is the pitch that'd probably attract the most talent, since the entire appeal of doing something like an Arkham show in the first place is to play around with the Batman villains and reinvent them and their dynamics and their relationship with Gotham yourself.
2. Do a show where they'd only be able to use 2 rogues which would be micromanaged since Reeves probably already has very specific things in mind for them in the sequels and then only be limited to use a bunch of D-listers which are gonna be grounded to the extent they'd lose all the fun of even doing a genre show like this in the first place. Which is the pitch that'd probably only attract showrunners with extremely limited experience.

Reeves probably realized the former would be a better show, so he chose to go on that direction instead of making a worse show with worse talent just so it fits on his universe.

Also the slate thing is such BS because he didn't announce Peacemaker Season 2 in the slate either. Doesn't mean it's not coming or not being developed or that he didn't already have it planned. The slate seemed to be more about the projects Gunn directly pitched to Zaslav and WBD execs as part of the 10 year plan, and since Arkham was pitched to him (meaning he didn't come up with the idea of it being in the 10 year plan himself) it didn't make sense to put it there. Also, since it's Matt's baby and Matt is in charge of it, he can't /guarantee/ it'll actually come out because it all depends on Matt's disposition to keep developing it because Gunn isn't gonna go out of his way to do it himself with all he has on his plate already. The others, on the other hand, are his babies and he'll make sure they come out.

If anything, had it been Gunn's idea to move the show over to DCU, wouldn't he have announced it himself then on a big way instead of doing it a random Sunday on Threads at the end of the year, possibly an entire year after he decided it was gonna be DCU?

If Penguin does well and the DCU doesn't, then yes, I can see them continuing with more. This is literally what I said. Otherwise Gunn said since day one that he wants them all connected, movies, shows, animation, even video games, so I can certainly see him not wanting to greenlight anything outside that universe from now on. Even more so Zaslav has said since day one that he wants the MCU model and that it doesn't make sense to not have everything connected. A big indicator is that there hasn't been any Elseworld project being developed since both of them took over, not even the black Superman film that was initially reported that it was still happening, back in January.

Francis and Keanu literally said that they're still being allowed to develop Constantine 2. (I've repeated this point to you so, so many times and it's astounding how it's still going over your head) And Gunn literally confirmed there'd be more big videogames set outside the DCU (which is again, something that right now he could easily have terminated especially because Kill the Justice League is about to be a disaster) as well as animated movies and shows. If there's any PR spin they're doing is the whole "It's all gonna be connected"; it's not. Most might be, but not all. And in the case of The Batman spin-offs shows it'd be pointless to cancel them because:
1. It's streaming. You can quite literally put The Batman spin-offs on a separate category on MAX and no one would be confused even in the slightest.
2. They're already doing 2 movies and 1 spin-off streaming set in that world with a Batman that'll be different from DCU Batman so like, the "worst" in regards to connectivity is already being done. 1 or 2 more streaming shows wouldn't possibly hurt.

 

[Filmfreak]

The comparison between Constantine and Batman is silly. The former is one that is not needed in the DC universe, is mostly performing outside of it in the comics too and they haven't been developing another DCU version while they're "having these talks", like in the cases of Batman and Superman. And even so, the project hasn't had a serious update since it was first considered, a year ago. It hasn't been greenlit yet and we don't know how seriously they're considering it. But again it's like comparing Spider-Man and Kick-Ass because they both belong to Marvel.

Fans do really tend to believe that general audience thinks and acts as they do or is as knowledgeable as them. The vast majority has no idea that the Sony films are outside the MCU or that DC is rebooting after Aquaman. You should bet your bottom that they're going to be very confused (again) when/if we're going to have two different Batman actors, one of which won't even be the one that was already established, two different types of movies and two different types of spin-off shows.

Again the only reason Zaslav allowed Joker and Battinson to continue is because they did really well and it's a safety net, while the DCU is more uncharted territory and based on the history of the DCEU it might not go so well. So of course they wouldn't throw away the only thing that they have that is currently making money. That doesn't mean that if their new universe does well they won't change their tune.

You can believe what you want about Arkham and at the moment we can't know for sure, but none of what you say sounds convincing to me in the slightest and I feel it's more like you're projecting because you want to remain positive.

 

[Invader Joker]

You can believe what you want about Arkham and at the moment we can't know for sure, but none of what you say sounds convincing to me in the slightest and I feel it's more like you're projecting because you want to remain positive.

Funny enough it sounds more to me like you're the one projecting because you want to remain negative, because the explanations you are giving make absolutely no sense for any of the personalities involved. I have absolutely zero idea how the idea that "An Arkham show might work better if a showrunner is able to use all the rogues" sounds even remotely far fetched. It's a 100% reasonable conclusion someone could come to when developing a show like this.

 

[Filmfreak]

Funny enough it sounds more to me like you're the one projecting because you want to remain negative, because the explanations you are giving make absolutely no sense for any of the personalities involved. I have absolutely zero idea how the idea that "An Arkham show might work better if a showrunner is able to use all the rogues" sounds even remotely far fetched.

It wouldn't sound far fetched if Reeves didn't already had a universe established. One that he chose to make it the way he did. It wasn't WB telling him "we want a grounded noir Batman and we want you to develop it". It was a cleal slate from the Affleck movie and he could have done anything. They wanted him so desperately that they would have said yes to anything. And yet he chose that, which means this is what interests him. If he can't use some villains because they have more fantastical elements that don't belong in the Battinson universe, then guess what, he probably never cared enough for those in the first place.

It's far more logical that Gunn didn't want a second Arkham adaptation after Joker, that exists outside his upcoming universe, because that way if he had to introduce this as well, it would be the third iteration in only a few years. Reeves could still care enough to develop it that way without it being his number one choice.

And it's not really negativity. It's just that I don't take anything Gunn says as a given, because I realise he's a pr man as well and if my scenario was happening he would never admit he pressured someone to make it the way he himself wanted. He sugarcoated so many things in the DCEU this last year or so, that I find it hard to trust him over things that are not being corroborated by facts.

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

The reality is that this project probably went through a several different iterations as time went on. And its development was happening at the same time Zaslav was restructuring the DC universe. Along with that are the delayed nature of press releases. An an example, my old company hired a Chief Growth Officer in December of 2022 but didn't publicly announce it in the trades until March of 2023. A similar thing happened with the Chief Media Officer who worked partially on the business for a month or so before being officially announced.

All that's to say, it's plausible Gunn was working on the DCU in some capacity prior to his official Nov 2022 start or even the Oct 2022 announcement. And even if he wasn't, given the fact Zaslav was clearly making efforts (for better or for worse) to streamline DC's film catalogue, it's also plausible he got Reeves to (or that Reeves willingly chose to) alter the Arkham show to fit within the shared universe model.

Yeah, I suspect that much of this was initiated before Gunn and Safran were officially hired. Even if they weren't involved from the start, other creatives w/ an interest in the shared universe concept were. I also think that this was the main reason the studio wanted to go with an Arkham show in the first place instead of the Gotham PD series that Reeves had originally planned.

 

[Invader Joker]

It wouldn't sound far fetched if Reeves didn't already had a universe established. One that he chose to make it the way he did. It wasn't WB telling him "we want a grounded noir Batman and we want you to develop it". It was a cleal slate from the Affleck movie and he could have done anything. They wanted him so desperately that they would have said yes to anything. And yet he chose that, which means this is what interests him. If he can't use some villains because they have more fantastical elements that don't belong in the Battinson universe, then guess what, he probably never cared enough for those in the first place.

I'm not sure what that has to do with the current discussion at all. Him deciding his own movie that he was gonna write and direct was gonna be better grounded and realistic is different than him deciding that a show that another person is gonna ultimately have to write and direct would be better off if he just let that person do it the way they pleased with as many rogues as that person would want to put in.

Also it's funny that you mention Matt's thing tho because that's yet another example of Matt changing his mind from the initial premise. The Batman WAS gonna be a DCEU movie, and he signed up for that with Affleck in mind. And this is straight up from the horse's mouth, he admitted that was the initial idea even during The Batman press tour. He even explained that he already had the idea of the theme it was gonna deal with an older Batman, "disillusionment". But then as things changed and as he actually sat down to write it he decided it'd be better being a complete reboot with a young Batman.

Matt comes up with really vague ideas, and then as he develops them, they change somewhat drastically. It's what he always does, so him changing his mind on Arkham that drastically is in line with how he operates.

And it's not really negativity. It's just that I don't take anything Gunn says as a given, because I realise he's a pr man as well and if my scenario was happening he would never admit he pressured someone to make it the way he himself wanted. He sugarcoated so many things in the DCEU this last year or so, that I find it hard to trust him over things that are not being corroborated by facts.

I don't either! I'm the one over here that has the "crazy conspiracy theory" he was flat out lying about stuff like him really liking The Flash all along.

It's also funny to accuse me of putting on blindfolders because of optimism or whatever because when the DCU slate got announced I was amongst the ones that had the most negative reactions to it lol Granted I have reconsidered a lot of those projects, but I'm still skeptical that certain stuff like Paradise Lost is ever gonna get made (that sounds like the sort of thing it'll be damn near impossible to find a suitable showrunner for) or that The Authority will come out as soon as James Gunn promised. Back on another thread I was the only one saying that The Penguin doesn't look good. So trust me, if this smelt like bull**** in any way, I'd just flat out say it and not be blindfolded by positivity or an inherent trust on studio execs on everything.

Here I don't because the explanation Gunn gave is the one that makes the most sense and if anything it lines up with Matt Reeves MO of announcing things too early (again—there is no getting around the fact this is the same man that pitched Gotham PD on DC Fandome as a Terence Winter show only to fall out with him 3 months later) and the ridiculous amounts of permutations this project has had.

It's possible and I'd even say the most likely that after so, so many changes and permutations and indecisiveness and clashes with different creatives over it over the years he simply decided that it was best if he just gave Antonio a cleaner canvas to work on where he'd be able to use as many rogues as he wishes, and that it'd make for a better show if he did that. An Arkham show on the Reevesverse only made sense if he was able to attach great talent to it and put a great story behind it, but if said great talent was more drawn to an Arkham completely different to his own with a great story that wouldn't make sense in his world, then at that point it's better to just do it outside his universe.

 

[Invader Joker]

It's also important to note that this show never even started as part of Matt's master plan for the Batverse to begin with. It was a pitch that came to exist because Gotham PD, which is a story that was way more developed and that by all accounts could only make sense in his universe, was turned down. And in fact, it seems that it was the studio pre-Zaslav and pre-Gunn that pushed him to do an Arkham show in the first place. So there's no reason to think this Arkham show even from the initial concept was ever that vital of an idea to his world; which may be a big part of why he eventually decided to transform it into a DCU project instead and give it over to Gunn.

If I had to guess, if there's any other spin-off he actually wants to do connected to his universe, it's still Gotham PD. That's what he's always spoken more fondly and passionate about.

 

[HydraSith12]

I dont want to watch a Gotham Spin Off shows without still having a DCU Batman movie yet i dont want it to become like one of those CW shows where the entire Batfamily shows up without Batman

 

[Invader Joker]

I dont want to watch a Gotham Spin Off shows without still having a DCU Batman movie yet i dont want it to become like one of those CW shows where the entire Batfamily shows up without Batman

I don't think we'd have to worry about that, I'm sure that if the story calls for it DCU Batman would show up regardless since Gunn's entire pitch is that whatever actor plays Batman, Superman, etc can appear on TV shows and other media too.

 

[Invader Joker]

More clarification on when Matt pitched Arkham to Gunn and why it wasn't in the February slate. Matt pitched it to him anywhere from February-April. Further explains the timeline of when Matt would've decided to move it over to DCU.

Mike Flanagan Pitches Pic On Clayface To Warner Bros DC – The Dish

Timeline also matches with this, interestingly enough.

Which Reeves seems to also be producing:



And it's not set on the Reevesverse: Word is that Flanagan and his Intrepid Pictures partner Trevor Macy had a meeting with DC Bosses James Gunn and Peter Safran. Flangan, we understand, wasn’t pitching the character to be part of Matt Reeves’ DC elseworld, The Batman 2 set for an Oct. 3, 2025 release date.

 

[Filmfreak]

If this show wasn't pitched until February, there goes that whole theory that it was no coincidence that Antonio Campos was announced as a showrunner of the Arkham series at the same day Gunn took over DC Studios in October.

 

[Invader Joker]

If this show wasn't pitched until February, there goes that whole theory that it was no coincidence that Antonio Campos was announced as a showrunner of the Arkham series at the same day Gunn took over DC Studios in October.

Congrats for you then!

 

[Invader Joker]

I have noticed that Antonio Campos has worked with Michael Stuhlbarg twice, once in a movie called Afterschool and another in his mini-series the Staircase. What would you guys think of him as Hugo Strange?