Discussion: Congress, The Senate, The House of Representatives - Part I

Sithborg said:
I mean, no matter the outcome in Ukraine, my opinion won't change. Ukraine deserves our support to repel an invader. And invader, who pretty early on showed that fighting to the death is likely to be better than just allowing them in.
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With that framing you're assuming that your underlying understanding of the subject won't change, and give that, your conclusions won't change. Obviously, isn't that always the case?

I think that there are more aspects to the story. I'll just leave two points here:

1) If Ukraine is genuinely worth defending, the USA (and Europe) should be providing a lot more meaningful support. That means more weapons, better weapons, and ground troops. For example, instead of giving Ukrainian conscripts a little training to fly the oldest F16s available, they should send trained pilots on F22s and F35s. Top Gun is an actual school :-)

I actually agree with Boris Johnson that maintaining Western hegemony over the rest of the planet requires victory in Ukraine. But that can't be done on the cheap.

2) The population of Ukraine will be better off in a political union with Russia than as indentured servants to and cannon fodder for the West in perpetuity. The same deal Chechnya and Belarus are getting, for example. That you'll be able to see for yourself in maybe ten years.

3) I'm unsure as to some of the events in the Middle East. For example I don't know what happened last week with the "quadcopters."
 
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Watch the tone, guys. Disagreements does not mean snark, m'kay?
 
Sithborg said:
I mean, no matter the outcome in Ukraine, my opinion won't change. Ukraine deserves our support to repel an invader. And invader, who pretty early on showed that fighting to the death is likely to be better than just allowing them in.

The Middle East is the Middle East. Bibi belongs in jail. And to be frank, our big allies in the region, Saudi Arabia and Israel feel less and less like good allies. However, reversing decades of political policy that lead us here feels like a bad idea.
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Agreed. There is no world in which Russia didn't invade another country. There was no threat of Ukraine invading them and anyone who thinks otherwise needs to think again. Russia/USSR has had a deformed political structure since long before I was born. It just never developed for one reason or another. Living under a political system like that, no matter the underlying economic structure, is not good for most people. If you want to live in a country that persecutes you for calling a war a war, feel free. I'm not a huge supporter of the political system in the US, but it's clear that we can criticize the political workings without being jailed. Are there limits, sure, but I've been a known (if anyone ever thought it was important enough to check out) socialist for decades (even registered as a voter as such) and I've never had to deal with repercussions. If 2/3 of the people thought as I do, I admit it might be a different story. Russia's kept its authoritarian political system and their economic structure is now worse than it was prior to the breakup of the Soviet Union.

Ukraine deserves the help of a lot of countries, including the US. How much help and what kind of help is always up for question because no one has a crystal ball that says "If A, then B", but one thing is certain. This entire war was started by Russia and I believe anyone who says otherwise is playing the role of a Russian apologist.
 
InCali said:
Agreed. There is no world in which Russia didn't invade another country. There was no threat of Ukraine invading them and anyone who thinks otherwise needs to think again. Russia/USSR has had a deformed political structure since long before I was born. It just never developed for one reason or another. Living under a political system like that, no matter the underlying economic structure, is not good for most people. If you want to live in a country that persecutes you for calling a war a war, feel free. I'm not a huge supporter of the political system in the US, but it's clear that we can criticize the political workings without being jailed. Are there limits, sure, but I've been a known (if anyone ever thought it was important enough to check out) socialist for decades (even registered as a voter as such) and I've never had to deal with repercussions. If 2/3 of the people thought as I do, I admit it might be a different story. Russia's kept its authoritarian political system and their economic structure is now worse than it was prior to the breakup of the Soviet Union.

Ukraine deserves the help of a lot of countries, including the US. How much help and what kind of help is always up for question because no one has a crystal ball that says "If A, then B", but one thing is certain. This entire war was started by Russia and I believe anyone who says otherwise is playing the role of a Russian apologist.
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1) Different people face different levels of repercussion depending on how much of a threat they are to the system. As some examples, Julian Assange has been tortured, and a Boeing whistleblower was recently assassinated.

I donated to and attended Black Lives matter protests in 2020, for example. Nothing bad happened to me either, but in hindsight it's because those protests were backed by a lot of the establishment. They also disappeared once Biden became President. The fact nothing bad happened is hardly a reason to celebrate our liberty.

the-smart-way-to-keep-people-passive-and-obedient-is-to-stri-author-noam-chomsky.jpg


2) The fighting in Ukraine began in 2014.

3) Suggesting I'm an "apologist" is a personal attack. I have no interest in apologizing, I am interested in understanding, and what I "support" is the emancipation of the global majority and the end of Western hegemony.
 
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DA_Champion said:
1) Different people face different levels of repercussion depending on how much of a threat they are to the system. As some examples, Julian Assange has been tortured, and a Boeing whistleblower was recently assassinated.

I donated to and attended Black Lives matter protests in 2020, for example. Nothing bad happened to me either, but in hindsight it's because those protests were backed by a lot of the establishment. They also disappeared once Biden became President. The fact nothing bad happened is hardly a reason to celebrate our liberty.

the-smart-way-to-keep-people-passive-and-obedient-is-to-stri-author-noam-chomsky.jpg


2) The fighting in Ukraine began in 2014.

3) Suggesting I'm an "apologist" is a personal attack. I have no interest in apologizing, I am interested in understanding, and what I "support" is the emancipation of the global majority and the end of Western hegemony.
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An "apologist" is someone who explains a position, not saying sorry for it. It's not a personal attack. Calm down or take a break.
 
squeekness said:
An "apologist" is someone who explains a position, not saying sorry for it. It's not a personal attack. Calm down or take a break.
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I haven't read hardly any posts from this person, for reasons I stated quite some time ago, so I wasn't aware this was going on (ignore list and all). I read a couple of his/her posts that you responded to and the idea that I was pointing to a particular person isn't true. There are plenty of all types to go around and just because I speak of them in the generic sense doesn't mean I'm pointing fingers at a particular person (esp one whose opinion I've decided I don't really need to read). We crossed swords a while back and, because I don't really feel her/his opinion really deserves much consideration, I decided not to read those posts. That's it. I felt that if I could avoid reading, I wouldn't be tempted to respond and start the cycle going.

I'll still feel free to point out apologists exist WRT Israel, Russia, China, Europe, etc etc. To be clear, unless I point directly to someone, I'm not calling people out. I feel free to disagree with people, but, if I do, I will respond to you directly or mention your name.

Sorry for the confusion.....
 
DA_Champion said:
With that framing you're assuming that your underlying understanding of the subject won't change, and give that, your conclusions won't change. Obviously, isn't that always the case?

I think that there are more aspects to the story. I'll just leave two points here:

1) If Ukraine is genuinely worth defending, the USA (and Europe) should be providing a lot more meaningful support. That means more weapons, better weapons, and ground troops. For example, instead of giving Ukrainian conscripts a little training to fly the oldest F16s available, they should send trained pilots on F22s and F35s. Top Gun is an actual school :-)

I actually agree with Boris Johnson that maintaining Western hegemony over the rest of the planet requires victory in Ukraine. But that can't be done on the cheap.

2) The population of Ukraine will be better off in a political union with Russia than as indentured servants to and cannon fodder for the West in perpetuity. The same deal Chechnya and Belarus are getting, for example. That you'll be able to see for yourself in maybe ten years.

3) I'm unsure as to some of the events in the Middle East. For example I don't know what happened last week with the "quadcopters."
Click to expand...

Yes, we should be providing more assistance.

And I think all those in the mass graves in Izium, Bucha, and Mariopol will disagree with your sentiment on the value of being occupied by Russia. For all you decry Biden for supporting Israel and their actions in Gaza, Russia is doing their own genocidal actions in Ukraine.
 
Sithborg said:
Yes, we should be providing more assistance.

And I think all those in the mass graves in Izium, Bucha, and Mariopol will disagree with your sentiment on the value of being occupied by Russia. For all you decry Biden for supporting Israel and their actions in Gaza, Russia is doing their own genocidal actions in Ukraine.
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Yeah......being occupied by Russia and dealing with the US economic expectations as an ally are 2 utterly and completely different things. There are countries that understand that political underpinnings can swing a little and there are those that will not allow it.....and throw you in jail, or kill you, for simply expressing a different opinion.
 
Sithborg said:
Yes, we should be providing more assistance.

And I think all those in the mass graves in Izium, Bucha, and Mariopol will disagree with your sentiment on the value of being occupied by Russia. For all you decry Biden for supporting Israel and their actions in Gaza, Russia is doing their own genocidal actions in Ukraine.
Click to expand...

It's a huge tragedy. Though I can't find certain numbers, I've read that Ukraine has 5 million refugees that went to Europe, 4 million that went to Russia, and up to a million have died on the front. This follows thirty years of Ukraine having poor demographics due to being stuck between two worlds, and now five oblasts being absorbed into Russia. The loss to that country is devastating. This is not what the people of Ukraine wanted. Zelensky ran on a peace platform and got 72% support.

Where we differ and where I think more information will come to light supporting my position or rather my interpretation. The West took over Ukraine in 2014 in the Maidan coup. They were committing ethnic cleansing against the civilian population in the Donbass, and were being heavily armed as a NATO army to eventually take on Russia. They walked away from peace negotiations in Istanbul in April 2014 where they would have kept the 4 oblasts.


(Note: I've read a theory that Putin only agreed to those peace terms in Istanbul because he knew the Ukrainians would walk away. I don't know if that's true.)

I believe that the same is not true of Israel and Palestine. I think that there's a simple enough resolution there: peace. Give the Palestinians a state on approximately 1948 borders, with a genuinely independent state. And then economically integrate. The countries that have signed peace treaties with Israel (Egypt, Jordan) have respected them so there is precedent. I think that the roadblock there is racism: Zionists see Palestinians as lesser life, they want them gone so they can take their land and their resources. Some of them say they got the land from God, and even that's debatable as Gaza was not part of ancient Israel's borders, and anyway it's irrelevant.
 
DA_Champion said:
It's a huge tragedy. Though I can't find certain numbers, I've read that Ukraine has 5 million refugees that went to Europe, 4 million that went to Russia, and up to a million have died on the front. This follows thirty years of Ukraine having poor demographics due to being stuck between two worlds, and now five oblasts being absorbed into Russia. The loss to that country is devastating. This is not what the people of Ukraine wanted. Zelensky ran on a peace platform and got 72% support.

Where we differ and where I think more information will come to light supporting my position or rather my interpretation. The West took over Ukraine in 2014 in the Maidan coup. They were committing ethnic cleansing against the civilian population in the Donbass, and were being heavily armed as a NATO army to eventually take on Russia. They walked away from peace negotiations in Istanbul in April 2014 where they would have kept the 4 oblasts.


(Note: I've read a theory that Putin only agreed to those peace terms in Istanbul because he knew the Ukrainians would walk away. I don't know if that's true.)

I believe that the same is not true of Israel and Palestine. I think that there's a simple enough resolution there: peace. Give the Palestinians a state on approximately 1948 borders, with a genuinely independent state. And then economically integrate. The countries that have signed peace treaties with Israel (Egypt, Jordan) have respected them so there is precedent. I think that the roadblock there is racism: Zionists see Palestinians as lesser life, they want them gone so they can take their land and their resources. Some of them say they got the land from God, and even that's debatable as Gaza was not part of ancient Israel's borders, and anyway it's irrelevant.
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The solutions only work if both sides agree. It frustrates me to no end that neither side is willing to budge. Aren't they all sick of the madness or it now just the norm for them? Geez..... :(
 
Yeah, probably the dems who voted for the aid are just going to vote present when the motion to vacate comes up.
 
www.dailykos.com

House Republicans are officially down to a one-vote margin for error

Despite pleas from House Speaker Mike Johnson that he stay on, Wisconsin Rep. Mike Gallagher followed through on his plans to resign from Congress on Saturday. The direct result of Gallagher’s ...
www.dailykos.com

www.dailykos.com

Biden wins on Ukraine as House GOP faces big decision about its future

President Joe Biden and Democrats won big in the House Saturday, when it voted resoundingly in support of Ukraine aid . This could mark a turning point for Republicans, leaving them with a choice: ...
www.dailykos.com
 
No matter what happens, it looks like MTG will move to vacate the speaker, i doubt she has enough allies to do remove him, as this circus has been going on long enough, there are to many Trump Maga people in the house who have zero interest in actually governing, including Jim Jordan,Boebert, Gaetz and Green, all are only interested in grand standing and trying to impress defendant Trump as who is a bigger scumbag, but we could be in for another circus next session.
 
Ironfan72 said:
No matter what happens, it looks like MTG will move to vacate the speaker, i doubt she has enough allies to do remove him, as this circus has been going on long enough, there are to many Trump Maga people in the house who have zero interest in actually governing, including Jim Jordan,Boebert, Gaetz and Green, all are only interested in grand standing and trying to impress defendant Trump as who is a bigger scumbag, but we could be in for another circus next session.
Click to expand...
I'd love to see Taylor Green lose her bid to oust the Speaker. It would let her know what power she thinks she has is slipping.
 
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