Comics Marry Jane vs The Black-Cat The Good The Bad & The Poll

[DACrowe]

Now Dragon I disagree. I don't think everything has to be as how Stan Lee wrote it. When he wrote it Gwen was the woman he was supposed to marry. Things change.

And people change too. I agree she should be more spunky and have a happy go lucky personality for Peter to bounce off of, but I think as much as she should keep his spirits up she should definetly grow. You complain about growth but you crticize people like DeFalco for giving her depth. Giving her a background that explains why she acted so flaky under Lee but showed some substance hidden in Conaway. She had a rough background and did flake on her sister, Peter and others but because she was hurt. But in the end they saw threw each other and that is why it works.

Now she should still be larger than life but she should also have worries, concerns, fears for Peter and though not every issue like it almost became, there should be moments of tenderness between Pete and MJ. She can have a "I love you" moment and just not be a flaky crazy party girl in love with Spider-Man. That borders on why the relationship between Spidey and BC didn't work (before they ****ted her up).

Just my opinion though.

 

[Dragon]

Now Dragon I disagree. I don't think everything has to be as how Stan Lee wrote it. When he wrote it Gwen was the woman he was supposed to marry. Things change.

And people change too. I agree she should be more spunky and have a happy go lucky personality for Peter to bounce off of, but I think as much as she should keep his spirits up she should definetly grow. You complain about growth but you crticize people like DeFalco for giving her depth. Giving her a background that explains why she acted so flaky under Lee but showed some substance hidden in Conaway. She had a rough background and did flake on her sister, Peter and others but because she was hurt. But in the end they saw threw each other and that is why it works.

Now she should still be larger than life but she should also have worries, concerns, fears for Peter and though not every issue like it almost became, there should be moments of tenderness between Pete and MJ. She can have a "I love you" moment and just not be a flaky crazy party girl in love with Spider-Man. That borders on why the relationship between Spidey and BC didn't work (before they ****ted her up).

Just my opinion though.

DeFalco didn't give her depth. He gave her a cliched, movie of the week background, and didn't even have the courage to make it real. MJ suffered nothing worse than the Barone brothers of "Everybody Loves Raymond". And what happened after that. MJ became dry and tiresome. Writers have to think outside the box to make this interesting.

You can certainly use the basis of what Stan did and give her depth, and yet at the same time maintain her uniqueness. Because a person is funny, even flaky doesn't mean they don't have depth and wisdom. In fact sometimes it MEANS they have depth and wisdom.

And growth doesn't mean she has to become stolid and the typical boring housewife. Growth is her getting past her party-girl persona, in the sense of not being able to commit. not that she ceases to be bouncy and vibrant. Growth is her getting past her own fears and being able to deal with Peter's life as Spider-Man. Growth is her developing as an artist, and again, making even looking past acting and so forth to do something that might otherwise contirbute. None of that means she couldn't remain funny, flaky, a little nutty. Having worries and so forth will always be apart of her life. But she doesn't have to approach them in the same down-trodden way.

 

[DACrowe]

Look I agree that writers in the '90s for the most part (with a few notable excceptions) wrote her boringly and as a whiney housewife whose life revolved around Peter. But things COULD improve. And I think JMS and PAD for all their faults have taken a few good early steps now they just need to give her back her spunky personality who knows maybe an issue or two every now and then where Peter is worrying about MJ's problems or trying to do something for her instead of just always being about him and her being a rock for him to hang onto. However, I do think it is good she is there to give him comfort and be a rock when neccesary. Just not overuse it, however I much prefer her as a confidant than Aunt May who on ly learned the identity a few years ago and since then has only had the advice for him to unmask himself....

But I think MJ written by Stan Lee was fun, but very flaky. He never delved far into her, he made hints at it but in the end she was more of an obsticale for him to get around to reach Gwen (just as Jeph Loeb writes about the two girls, EVEN WHEN PETER IS MARRIED TO MJ he still writes him as describing her as only a flake when talking to Gwen on tape).

I would credit Conaway much more for starting to push the party girl as a mirage for something deeper (though he admiteddly did not nearly fully explore it and Wein just glossed over it).

That is why I liked DeFalco's MJ. She was tough and a party girl but she also had a past and problems and was deep and could be a confidant for Peter. Michillene continued this (if half-assedly) for the first year or so of his run but quit after they got married, oddly enough.

Now call DeFalco "tv movie of the week" but then we cna criticize the simplicity of any characterization, including Stan Lee and Ditko in Amazing Fantasy #15 where Peter says your typical cliche dorky teen things including "sniff, sniff, Someday I'll show them, sniff, sniff" and we have an aunt and uncle as flat as the pancakes they talk about with lines like "Don't feed him anymore wheetcakes May or soon he'll be big enough to beat me" or something like that with Peter drinking milk and going "Oh gee."

I'm sorry if those quotes aren't exact. For the record I think that issue is brilliant for the boundaries it crossed and broke in comicdom and created the world's greatest superhero, however if we are to criticize some writing for being hokey we need look no further than the early issues of Spdier-Man which certainly pushed that envelope to the limit for the first dozen issues or so.

 

[Eddie Brock]

Gwen Stacy
i don't think ANY of us wanted her to die

 

[DACrowe]

Well I am biased because I came in well after a decade since she bit the big one but the ***** had to go

J/K but in all hoensty I have read the Lee issues (and have quite a few in back issues and just TPB) and liked the character but I think she works better as a martyr to the past than another girlfriend or worse Pete's wife. Just my opinion though.

 

[Dragon]

Look I agree that writers in the '90s for the most part (with a few notable excceptions) wrote her boringly and as a whiney housewife whose life revolved around Peter. But things COULD improve. And I think JMS and PAD for all their faults have taken a few good early steps now they just need to give her back her spunky personality who knows maybe an issue or two every now and then where Peter is worrying about MJ's problems or trying to do something for her instead of just always being about him and her being a rock for him to hang onto. However, I do think it is good she is there to give him comfort and be a rock when neccesary. Just not overuse it, however I much prefer her as a confidant than Aunt May who on ly learned the identity a few years ago and since then has only had the advice for him to unmask himself....

But I think MJ written by Stan Lee was fun, but very flaky. He never delved far into her, he made hints at it but in the end she was more of an obsticale for him to get around to reach Gwen (just as Jeph Loeb writes about the two girls, EVEN WHEN PETER IS MARRIED TO MJ he still writes him as describing her as only a flake when talking to Gwen on tape).

I would credit Conaway much more for starting to push the party girl as a mirage for something deeper (though he admiteddly did not nearly fully explore it and Wein just glossed over it).

That is why I liked DeFalco's MJ. She was tough and a party girl but she also had a past and problems and was deep and could be a confidant for Peter. Michillene continued this (if half-assedly) for the first year or so of his run but quit after they got married, oddly enough.

Now call DeFalco "tv movie of the week" but then we cna criticize the simplicity of any characterization, including Stan Lee and Ditko in Amazing Fantasy #15 where Peter says your typical cliche dorky teen things including "sniff, sniff, Someday I'll show them, sniff, sniff" and we have an aunt and uncle as flat as the pancakes they talk about with lines like "Don't feed him anymore wheetcakes May or soon he'll be big enough to beat me" or something like that with Peter drinking milk and going "Oh gee."

I'm sorry if those quotes aren't exact. For the record I think that issue is brilliant for the boundaries it crossed and broke in comicdom and created the world's greatest superhero, however if we are to criticize some writing for being hokey we need look no further than the early issues of Spdier-Man which certainly pushed that envelope to the limit for the first dozen issues or so.

Like I said- i think the flakey quality is something they shouldn't have jettisoned. That made her unique. There's no difference between MJ and any other superhero girlfriend. She's a rock. Big deal. Peter honestly doesn't need that anyway. He's a rock himself. Let MJ have flaws. Let her be afraid when scary things happen. She can still brave through it, but she can still be funny and real.

As for the writing thing- You can't really compare AF #15 to Stan's later work. When he wrote that he didn't even think there'd be another issue of Spider-Man. When Stan wrote AF #15 we were dealing with a totally different style of writing. DeFalco was writing when things were more "hip" and "evolved". Thus the super model nonsense, the casual sex with BC and so forth. In fact, the movies of the week were more intense than MJ's story. I mean really- "Mommy and Daddy'" aren't nice to each other and I can't handle it". The "Something about Amada" movie with Ted Danson came out before and was far worse.

And naturally Stan didn't delve into her. There was no reason for it as she wasn't the female lead. As I've often noted, he didn't even give Gwen enough character development, although in both cases Stan laid the groundwork. Just his having MJ attempt to open a dialogue with Peter in ASM #97 showed he knew MJ had more going on than meets the eye.

But I maintain that growth on MJ's part need not mean she had to end the partying and so forth. That's her thing. That's why Stan claims she was more fun to write than Gwen (Although that was just damage control after-the-fact). Nothing to be ashamed of. That's not to say she'd put it before her relationship with Peter, but it made her less of a stick in the mud. I'll say to may last breath that Gwen is the best choice, and she had other interests which could have been exploited and developed. But they should have allowed MJ to be unique. Flakiness need not be a bad thing.

 

[DACrowe]

Well I think we are getting hung up on misinterpretations of the word flake now.

I agree that MJ should be a party girl and the center of attention outside (albeit now that he is unmasked don't count on that happening....EVER) but when I say flake I mean a kind of a shell of a personality who is too shallow to really care about hurting Harry Osborn's feelings or screwing up Pete and Gwen or ditching Pete when she shouldn't.

That is what I meant by flake and for all intended purposes Stan wrote her as a shallow flake. Sure he hinted there may be more but he never once attempted to explore it. That is where Conaway came in. And quite frankly I think she did evolve.

And I think the times in the '80s were quite different than tehy are now. Comic book writing was still stilted and watered down for children on Marvel's main titles, even if it wasn't as much as in the '60s. He couldn't go too deep into child abuse at the time but he made a very interesting character and gave MJ depth and continued to write her as a fun loving center of attention (people, please FORGET ABOUT THE MODELING) but one with a dark side that she only EVER showed to Peter Parker, but she could just as easily hide it from him when need be. I liked that, even if DeFalco had to pull punches (or as you insinuate could never hit with enough force anyway).

It is no different than in the drug issues where Stan had a junkie on pot try and "fly" and then Randy Robertson criticized Norman Osborn for not doing his fight to help poor people and minorities combat drugs and Harry's childish duping into buying pills (later changed to LSD). The whole thing reeked of an after school special (if DeFalco wrote a Lifetime movie, Stan just wrote an after school special here). But because of the ground it broke in the comic book world by addressing a serious issue, having a main character overdose and going without hte approval of the censors it is a classic. It is a great story but when you look at it out of context, it is an after school special or the equivalent of an episode of Captain Planet.

And one thing we can agree on is that Gwen was not developed nearly enough. I know you liked her (I much prefer MJ and am glad they went that route) but in all honesty while MJ was shallow, I just thought Gwen was stereotypical and bland. She was much more the generic "superhero girlfriend rock" you claim MJ is. She had not nearly enough personality or depth AIMO and I think she was deeper in Spider-Man: Blue when she was written about from a distance than she ever was in Stan's run.

Just my opinion though.

 

[Ultimate Kaine]

My question is: why does she even need depth? All these secondary comic characters are based around a costume or attitude novelty/gimmick. I like it that way. They're there to bounce of the hero. I appreciate they're trying to elevate her to A-level status, maybe get her own book - but it'll never happen. Or at least stick. I like her as a supporting cast member. I like her as a sexual foil to married Parker. I like her as a thief. I don't like her as a real person I have to feel sorry for.

'Cause, you know, makes it hard to appreciate the bouncing boobs.

 

[SpideyInATree]

Gwen Stacy
i don't think ANY of us wanted her to die

According to Doc Destruction, earlier in this thread on several occassions, people who chose Gwen Stacy in this poll should be punched in the face.

I wouldn't necessarily go THAT far, but as for her being a Catwoman retread, I'm glad somebody else sees Black Cat for what she really is.

You act like nobody has ever seen this before, heh. I think that's blatantly obvious. Much like the extreme similarities between Green Arrow and Hawkeye. One is green and the other is purple. Just like the strong similarities between The Atom and Ant-Man. And we could just keep going on and on with this.

 

[James"007"Bond]

I really, really dislike Black Cat. She just comes off as the psychotic ****, fanboy wet dream to me.

....and thats not always a bad thing.

 

[Dragon]

Well I think we are getting hung up on misinterpretations of the word flake now.

I agree that MJ should be a party girl and the center of attention outside (albeit now that he is unmasked don't count on that happening....EVER) but when I say flake I mean a kind of a shell of a personality who is too shallow to really care about hurting Harry Osborn's feelings or screwing up Pete and Gwen or ditching Pete when she shouldn't.

Yes. When I say "flaky" I don't mean *****y or mean. I mean she goes to the beat of her own drummer. She's different. Which equals interesting. But at the same time, yeah, like any other person she should be flawed and made mistakes now and then. But she's been for the longest time, nothing but a cliche'. She's sexy on cue. She's smart on cue. She's brave on cue. Nothing interesting about her at all aside from her being in various stages of undress. And I DON'T think she should be famous. That was another problem, because the whole "She's famous and I'm not" is a superficial issue that took away from actually dealing with the characters on a personal level. The marriage should be about Peter Parker and Mary Jane Watson. Their unique personalities. Not cheesy general things that have been done endlessly.

That is what I meant by flake and for all intended purposes Stan wrote her as a shallow flake. Sure he hinted there may be more but he never once attempted to explore it. That is where Conaway came in. And quite frankly I think she did evolve.

Again- it wasn't Stan's job to delve into MJ's background. She wasn't the female lead (And Stan hadn't yet explored her background either). She was a supporting character. Supporting characters didn't get showcased when Stan was on the title. He started to do it- with the Flash Vietnam story in ASM #108-109. But he was leaving the title and couldn't do anymore.

And I think the times in the '80s were quite different than tehy are now. Comic book writing was still stilted and watered down for children on Marvel's main titles, even if it wasn't as much as in the '60s. He couldn't go too deep into child abuse at the time but he made a very interesting character and gave MJ depth and continued to write her as a fun loving center of attention (people, please FORGET ABOUT THE MODELING) but one with a dark side that she only EVER showed to Peter Parker, but she could just as easily hide it from him when need be. I liked that, even if DeFalco had to pull punches (or as you insinuate could never hit with enough force anyway).

In the 80's there wasn't any problem with dealng with child abuse in comics. No comics code breathing down their neck. Several years before MJ's "origin" issue Frank Miller dealt with child abuse in Daredevil. And, my problem is that simply by giving her a sob story doesn't give her depth. Depth is how she deals with life. What she brings into Peter's life. If anything, the story they gave her removed depth. It made her ridiculously fragile. Because her life isn't "Leave it to Beaver" she has to hide behind a fake persona? Whose life is
"Leave it to Beaver"? Peter's life was more difficult than hers.

It is no different than in the drug issues where Stan had a junkie on pot try and "fly" and then Randy Robertson criticized Norman Osborn for not doing his fight to help poor people and minorities combat drugs and Harry's childish duping into buying pills (later changed to LSD). The whole thing reeked of an after school special (if DeFalco wrote a Lifetime movie, Stan just wrote an after school special here). But because of the ground it broke in the comic book world by addressing a serious issue, having a main character overdose and going without hte approval of the censors it is a classic. It is a great story but when you look at it out of context, it is an after school special or the equivalent of an episode of Captain Planet.

You've got to be kidding. Stan Lee took serious heat for doing the drug stories. DeFalco had no problem whatsoever writing MJ's story. Stan Lee broke new ground and changed the industry with the drug stories. DeFalco created a very forgettable flashback story.

And the junkie wasn't on pot. There was no specified drugs since Stan would have had to take up page time to explain what each drug's effect was. And he was right in presenting the issue of how big business (Osborn) was making money off the masses and yet doing nothing to fight plagues like drugs. Of course he still had to make it a superhero story (Unlike DeFalco who could take an issue off from any action to tell MJ's story) so he couldn't do an in-depth expose' about drugs. Merely have it hit home for Peter by having his best friend involved in drugs- and also by having a rich, white kid as opposed to just keeping drugs among the minorities in the ghetto.

And Afterschool Special? Nope. Even adult television was scarcely dealing with drugs when ASM #96-98 came out. And when it did, it was "all drug-users are evil and white society must be protected from them!!" Sensitive looks at drug abuse came about 1-2 years after the drug issues (I was watching TV then, so I know).

And one thing we can agree on is that Gwen was not developed nearly enough. I know you liked her (I much prefer MJ and am glad they went that route) but in all honesty while MJ was shallow, I just thought Gwen was stereotypical and bland. She was much more the generic "superhero girlfriend rock" you claim MJ is. She had not nearly enough personality or depth AIMO and I think she was deeper in Spider-Man: Blue when she was written about from a distance than she ever was in Stan's run.

Just my opinion though.

And MJ has been bland and stereotypical for about 20 years. Which is why they're considering getting rid of her. She's been dangling by that wedding ring, and it's about to slip off. If you think being boring was justification for Gwen's demise, then MJ needs to be shot and hanged.

 

[3dman27]

how would you like theese ladies competeing over YOU gentlemen?

 

[DACrowe]

Well I think MJ has been written well by certain writers in the marriage. I think if Marvel would quit with this chok value **** and just let Peter and MJ live realtively normal lives and have normal problems instead "Oh my ex-girlfriend ****ed my worst enemy and bred superbabies that grew up fast and are trying to kill me" or "I am really half-Spider-God and died and resurected myself after eating away my old body and an enemy's head" and of course "I'm Iron Man's tool,"

we could get a better MJ and Peter. I notced even in ****ty storylines JMS and Peter David have a knack for evaluating her personality and finding how to push her buttons and write her well. I say why not let the melodrama and soap opera stop and show her as happy and fun loving again and maybe her and Peter having to deal with life without a crisis every issue.

And I didn't say Gwen had to die because she was bland, merely that she wasn't as interesting as MJ (which I do stand by) especially under conaway and that in retrospect the reason I think we remember her name so well in comics (as opposed to Betty Brant or Deb Whitman who are much smaller names in Pete's....eh, bedpost?) is because of her death.


Oh and the drug issues. Yeah I agree that in context of the time they were ground breaking and riveting. I understand when you realize no comic book ever tackled an issue like that or TV show for that matter and he was so determined to write this story that he even didn't let the code stop him that it is an amazing feat. But out of context it would look like a series of after school special cliches ("I'm gonna fly" and a druggie jumps off a building, lecturing a rich man for doing nothing and the best friend overdosing because he took pills because his girlfriend dumped him).

It is a brilliant story but if you look at it from today's point of view without any context, you can call it cliche, even though for its day it surely was not. That was my point.

And lastly, I completely agree with now on Mj needing to be more wild. I should have specified, when I say flaky, I meant the negative connontation.. Like when she is a complete ***** to Peter or Harry or seems shallower than a puddle (as Peter would remark in disgust at times). But her going to her own drum and being a bit head strong and very energetic....yes I agree with that assertion quite a bit though.

 

[stillanerd]

You act like nobody has ever seen this before, heh. I think that's blatantly obvious. Much like the extreme similarities between Green Arrow and Hawkeye. One is green and the other is purple. Just like the strong similarities between The Atom and Ant-Man. And we could just keep going on and on with this.

Well, I'm just saying that, given the slavish devotion some people have for the Black Cat, it does seem like they either don't notice this or refuse to notice it. However, you make a very good point. (Although, one could say that Green Arrow and Hawkeye are very similar, although Ollie is a lot more political than Clint, but certainly they're both ditrustful of authority). In the Black Cat's case, however, there are way too many similarities, especially when you consider that, like the Catwoman, she uses her sexuality to try and distract Spidey to get what she wants, much like Selina does with Batman. Throw in the theif angle and the cat motifs and one is surprised the DC didn't try to sue Marvel for copyright infringement, sort of like when DC sued the creators of Captain Marvel, accusing them of copyright infringement with regards to Superman, before DC ended up buying the character.

 

[DACrowe]

Meh, who cares?

I don't think BC has slavish fans, or many. She is jsut an intriguing character. And I agree the premise (a morally ambiguous femme fatale with a cat motif gives a hero trouble and flirts with him). But I think that was intentional. Marv Wolfman was basically doing his version on the character/cliche (Catwoman is not the first woman character in fiction to use sexuallity as a tool against the hero, they're both based on femme fatales of the past, Catwoman obviously a product of the popular film noir genre of films and Chandler novels of her early days)....

but he spent two stories with her as Catwoman and then took her in new directions. She had a past, she had a father and family and more interestingly the hero actually quit the ambiguities and they had a relationship and it took it a step further. They became partners. Yeah sure, she may be a rip off in inception of Catwoman but personally I think she was the better character of the last few decades than Catwoman.

So much so that Batman TAS felt a little more like Black Cat than comic book Catwoman and DC Comics has certainly struck back recently by making Catwoman a good guy, a straight forward one at that who teams up with Batman and is in an on/off love affair with him. Essientially where Black Cat was 20 years ago. Now with MJ a good writer (Mark Miller, Don Slott, arguably Kevin Smith....but Smith's storyline was so ****ty) can use new dynamics for her.

I feel that it is like *****ing that Peter Parker works at a newspaper like Clark Kent and (originally) wore glasses. Yeah, Spidey definetly was modeled some around the Superman motif 9red/blue, flagship, etc.) but Stan did that so he oculd depart from the DC playbook and create something new, different and fresh and stick it to his rival company though.

 

[stillanerd]

Meh, who cares?

I don't think BC has slavish fans, or many. She is jsut an intriguing character.

Well, given that we have had quite a few threads about her, arguing whether or not Spidey should hook up with her, not to mention that she's been around for over 25 years and has made frequent appearances in comics and other media, I'd say she has some kind of fan base.

And I agree the premise (a morally ambiguous femme fatale with a cat motif gives a hero trouble and flirts with him). But I think that was intentional. Marv Wolfman was basically doing his version on the character/cliche (Catwoman is not the first woman character in fiction to use sexuallity as a tool against the hero, they're both based on femme fatales of the past, Catwoman obviously a product of the popular film noir genre of films and Chandler novels of her early days)....but he spent two stories with her as Catwoman and then took her in new directions. She had a past, she had a father and family and more interestingly the hero actually quit the ambiguities and they had a relationship and it took it a step further. They became partners. Yeah sure, she may be a rip off in inception of Catwoman but personally I think she was the better character of the last few decades than Catwoman.

I agree that, like Catwoman--and also Elektra--Black Cat is modeled after the femme fatale archtype, and that's not my problem. My problem with the character is, as you said, the charcter's premise, albeit with some minor exceptions, is IDENTICAL to Catwoman's. And, if you believe Marv Wolfman, he wasn't trying to go for a Catwoman cliche. The Black Cat character was actually supposed to be a Spider-Woman villain and not only was she NOT going to wear a cat-inspired costume (she was going to wear a long dress and a slouched hat circa 1940s) but also leave elaborate traps to simulate "bad luck," sort of a cross between Cary Grant's character in Hitchcock's To Catch a Thief and P'Gell and Silk Satin from The Spirit, as well as Tex Avery's Bad Luck Blackie--the cartoon which was Wolfman's inspiration for the character in the first place. Here is what the image of what was supposed to be the character's first appearance:

However, once Wolfman left the title, he took the Black Cat character with him and decided to have her premire and be a Spider-Man villain. However, he says that the mysterious character he envisioned wouldn't have worked for Spider-Man, so he made her into a "action character." However, one of the reasons why she probably wasn't used so much in the beginning was because the changes unintentionally made her too similar to Catwoman. However, her apparent popularity, plus the fact that Spidey at the time didn't have a real interesting love interest at the time, ensured more appearences by her.

As for the additions to her character, I contend they are window dressing, even though they do add to her character somewhat. I also contend that Spidey and Black Cat having a serious relationship was a huge mistake for Spider-Man as a character because it took him too far away from being an "everyman with superpowers" and into "generic superhero" territory. What I mean is that Spidey's love interests were generally ordinary women--granted extremely hot women , but pretty ordinary because they were part of the life of Peter Parker who is supposed to have everyday problems when he's not in costume--including finding time for relationships. Black Cat, on the other hand, was a costumed ex-theif turned crimefighter, not exactly what I'd call a ordinary woman, and he could now, in a sense, have time for a relationship because she was in the same line of work as he was. This was probably the reason why their romance ended on the notion with the Black Cat being more attracted to "Spider-Man" than Peter Parker.

So much so that Batman TAS felt a little more like Black Cat than comic book Catwoman and DC Comics has certainly struck back recently by making Catwoman a good guy, a straight forward one at that who teams up with Batman and is in an on/off love affair with him. Essientially where Black Cat was 20 years ago. Now with MJ a good writer (Mark Miller, Don Slott, arguably Kevin Smith....but Smith's storyline was so ****ty) can use new dynamics for her.

Actually, the current conception of Catwoman was inspired primarily by Frank Miller's revamp of her in Batman: Year One and Michelle Pheiffer's performance from Tim Burton's Batman Returns. Also, Catwoman, at least with regards to her Silver Age version, first reformed from crime in the 1950s--years before the Black Cat was even created (Earth-2, if you recall, had Batman and Catwoman both retired and married with a daughter). I do agree, however, that Black Cat does make a contrast and temptation for Spider-Man, but more often than not, MJ has to be considerably weakened in order for this to happen, including losing her characteristic happy-go-lucky attitude. Granted, you can't have two Veronica's to Spidey's Archie, but that shouldn't mean sacrificing character traits.

I feel that it is like *****ing that Peter Parker works at a newspaper like Clark Kent and (originally) wore glasses. Yeah, Spidey definetly was modeled some around the Superman motif 9red/blue, flagship, etc.) but Stan did that so he oculd depart from the DC playbook and create something new, different and fresh and stick it to his rival company though.

Yes, Stan Lee was paraoding Superman a bit with Spider-Man in regards to him working at the Daily Bugle; however, he didn't make Peter Parker have the exact same motiffs as Superman. Peter Parker is human, Superman is an alien; Spider-Man is distrusted, Superman is not; Spidey wears a mask, Supes wears a cape; Spidey is younger, Supes is not, etc. Now contrast this with Catwoman and the Black Cat. Perhaps it's *****ing, but hey, quite a few people, yourself included, have noticed their obvious similarities. But hey, there's no reason why you can't like her.

 

[DACrowe]

Don't know how this happened but triple post.

 

[DACrowe]

Don't know how this happened, but triple post.