Rings of Power (Book Contradictions Discussion - CAUTION!! SPOILERS)

[SomeOldGuy]

We all agree the guy in the raft is Sauron, right?

I didn’t get that impression at all, which means you’re probably right.

In similar vein, we all agree the stranger is a balrog, right?

 

[emc5466]

I think the stranger is a member of the Istari.

 

[DKDetective]

That’s awesome. Thanks for the info. I’m sure it’s a lot more complicated than any of us can even imagine. That being said, everything that I laid out is from appendix A or B in the back of the return of the King. I don’t have exact dates memorized, but I do know the basic layout is in there.

another reason I know, or at least I think, thar they’re not that interested in being true to the story is that they have hobbits. That’s a clear sign of pandering to the public. I understand why because it’s all about the $$$ but it’s still there.

Yup, this series is fanfiction trash. The appendices and the story of the second and third ages hold special meaning to me. I actually read them before I read the Lond of the Rings proper. When I got my movie tie-in paperback set at age 13 in 2001, the first thing I did was flip to the back to read the background and history. It is such a majestically constructed history with some much authenticity to it. This show bears no relation to it. I can feel the old nerdrage rising.

 

[SomeOldGuy]

I think the stranger is a member of the Istari.

They’re clearly playing to that possibility too. The tell for me was the scene where Nori comes up behind him and he turns and does that scream at her. It’s a duplicate of the roar the balrog does against Gandalf in the Fellowship film. Add to that all the fire-themed stuff around him and it seems clear. But that may be a feint by the writers too. Still, it’s where I’m putting my marker right now.

 

[InCali]

I think the stranger is a member of the Istari.

Since they didn’t appear until the year 1000 of the 3rd age, you’re probably right.

 

[InCali]

As an avid LOTR fan, I tend to take the same approach to this show as I would with WB going nuts with DC; as long as you create a compelling story and characters, you can deviate as much as you want. You paid for it so go for it. If anyone should get abuse it should be the people who cashed in and sold to the highest bidder, not the actors, showrunners or even Amazon.

My issue with Galadriel in these 2 episodes isn't the ripping up of the character so to speak, more to do with it just being....terribly dull so far. As a comparison I thought Disa and Arondir were surprisingly good additions. The Dwarves/Elrond and Arondir/Men plots look like they're going to be the backbone of the show.

The difference is that one is derived from a comic with all kinds of different episodes that are ongoing and the other is a, mostly complete, body of work that has a beginning and end with fleshed out characters. The former doesn’t really have an ending and gives you more room to maneuver; though there is some room for fan fiction when bringing Tolkien’s work to the screen.

 

[Persona]

I love what we get about the First and Second Age from Tolkien's writing. But I'm also happy that Amazon is trying to do a 2nd Age TV Show that is epic in scope, even though they only have the appendices to go off of. Like, I'd much rather that than a Young Aragorn show, as was initially rumored.

Unlike an elf, I'm only gonna live so long. I am happy I get to see an attempt at adapting this Age and its major events. I don't agree that within the limitations and changes they can't deliver something that still gives us some of the power of the implied story (and that's really all we have, a very cool implied story from the outline that Tolkien gave about this Age).

Virtually every "departure" that the show takes, you can see the reasoning of how it fits with different bits and pieces of what Tolkien wrote about Galadriel or Finrod or the First Age or the 2nd Age or proto-Hobbits or Morgoth or Sauron or men of Harad and so on. Yeah, there are other things that he wrote, particularly things the show doesn't have rights to, where then it's like "I'm not sure how well the show fits with this or that, though, and it definitely doesn't jive with this bit over here."

I know for some people as soon as time compression was announced, that's it, it's done, no connection to Tolkien any more. I don't feel quite the same way but that is a valid enough reaction. I hope they can still enjoy the show independently as its own thing, then, which seems to be the sentiment of this thread.

 

[InCali]

I love what we get about the First and Second Age from Tolkien's writing. But I'm also happy that Amazon is trying to do a 2nd Age TV Show that is epic in scope, even though they only have the appendices to go off of. Like, I'd much rather that than a Young Aragorn show, as was initially rumored.

Unlike an elf, I'm only gonna live so long. I am happy I get to see an attempt at adapting this Age and its major events. I don't agree that within the limitations and changes they can't deliver something that still gives us some of the power of the implied story (and that's really all we have, a very cool implied story from the outline that Tolkien gave about this Age).

Virtually every "departure" that the show takes, you can see the reasoning of how it fits with different bits and pieces of what Tolkien wrote about Galadriel or Finrod or the First Age or the 2nd Age or proto-Hobbits or Morgoth or Sauron or men of Harad and so on. Yeah, there are other things that he wrote, particularly things the show doesn't have rights to, where then it's like "I'm not sure how well the show fits with this or that, though, and it definitely doesn't jive with this bit over here."

I know for some people as soon as time compression was announced, that's it, it's done, no connection to Tolkien any more. I don't feel quite the same way but that is a valid enough reaction. I hope they can still enjoy the show independently as its own thing, then, which seems to be the sentiment of this thread.

I wish they DID use the appendices. Lol. I waited to see it before I passed any judgment on it, but it really isn’t about Tolkien’s work. I found it somewhat interesting, but not at all similar to the authors writings.

 

[Boom]

Gil-galad does not have the authority to grant/deny passage to Valinor. So that whole thing rubbed me wrong.

Galadriel's power and influence was not through skill in combat. She spent many years of the First Age under the tutelage of Melian, a maiar of the same order as Sauron, the balrogs and the Istari. She was trained by a divine spirit; an "angel" if you will. No other elf alive in the Second Age can make such a claim. This take on Galadriel lacks wisdom.

Elves are physiologically identical to Men. The key exception being that they do not physically age once matured to adulthood, and they are universally beautiful. Some of the actors playing elves lack a certain... ethereal beauty. They are decidedly un-Elvish. Celebrimbor is perhaps the biggest offender.

Not really feeling any of the original characters so far, with exception maybe to Disa and Arondir. Still very early though.

Meteor Man is intriguing (for now), but if he ends up being Sauron or Gandalf I'm going to have things to say. They are making it almost too obvious that he's Gandalf to the point where it feels like a misdirect.

I still would've done without them, but the harfoots haven't been as bad as I feared. I remain wary of just how involved they're going to be in the big picture.

Everything with the dwarves and Khazad-dum was ace.

Please, for the love of God, give us Sauron without a full suit of armor.

Overall, it's a decent enough start. Some lore changes are irritating but otherwise I am interested in continuing on.

 

[InCali]

Gil-galad does not have the authority to grant/deny passage to Valinor. So that whole thing rubbed me wrong.

Galadriel's power and influence was not through skill in combat. She spent many years of the First Age under the tutelage of Melian, a maiar of the same order as Sauron, the balrogs and the Istari. She was trained by a divine spirit; an "angel" if you will. No other elf alive in the Second Age can make such a claim. This take on Galadriel lacks wisdom.

Elves are physiologically identical to Men. The key exception being that they do not physically age once matured to adulthood, and they are universally beautiful. Some of the actors playing elves lack a certain... ethereal beauty. They are decidedly un-Elvish. Celebrimbor is perhaps the biggest offender.

Not really feeling any of the original characters so far, with exception maybe to Disa and Arondir. Still very early though.

Meteor Man is intriguing (for now), but if he ends up being Sauron or Gandalf I'm going to have things to say. They are making it almost too obvious that he's Gandalf to the point where it feels like a misdirect.

I still would've done without them, but the harfoots haven't been as bad as I feared. I remain wary of just how involved they're going to be in the big picture.

Everything with the dwarves and Khazad-dum was ace.

Please, for the love of God, give us Sauron without a full suit of armor.

Overall, it's a decent enough start. Some lore changes are irritating but otherwise I am interested in continuing on.

Yeah. This “they only have the appendices” stuff neglects the fact that they aren’t really using them. I’m pretty much in the same boat as you are and brought up some of the points you raised. Khazad-dum was absolutely stunning and I blurted out something about that the second I saw it. Prolly something like “whoa! Holy s***!”

 

[DKDetective]

Gil-galad does not have the authority to grant/deny passage to Valinor. So that whole thing rubbed me wrong.

Galadriel's power and influence was not through skill in combat. She spent many years of the First Age under the tutelage of Melian, a maiar of the same order as Sauron, the balrogs and the Istari. She was trained by a divine spirit; an "angel" if you will. No other elf alive in the Second Age can make such a claim. This take on Galadriel lacks wisdom.

Elves are physiologically identical to Men. The key exception being that they do not physically age once matured to adulthood, and they are universally beautiful. Some of the actors playing elves lack a certain... ethereal beauty. They are decidedly un-Elvish. Celebrimbor is perhaps the biggest offender.

Not really feeling any of the original characters so far, with exception maybe to Disa and Arondir. Still very early though.

Meteor Man is intriguing (for now), but if he ends up being Sauron or Gandalf I'm going to have things to say. They are making it almost too obvious that he's Gandalf to the point where it feels like a misdirect.

I still would've done without them, but the harfoots haven't been as bad as I feared. I remain wary of just how involved they're going to be in the big picture.

Everything with the dwarves and Khazad-dum was ace.

Please, for the love of God, give us Sauron without a full suit of armor.

Overall, it's a decent enough start. Some lore changes are irritating but otherwise I am interested in continuing on.

As a feminist, I found the attempt to give Galadriel girl power by turning her into essentially your typical masculine loose cannon cop very regressive. It is also something that goes against Tolkien's core themes about not being able to win by strength of arms and victory coming through kindness, mercy, and unlikely strengths. Galadriel personifies traditional feminine virtues like empathy, compassion, kindness, that we need far more of in this world right now than macho martial prowess.

 

[TheFuture]

Gil-galad does not have the authority to grant/deny passage to Valinor. So that whole thing rubbed me wrong.

Galadriel's power and influence was not through skill in combat. She spent many years of the First Age under the tutelage of Melian, a maiar of the same order as Sauron, the balrogs and the Istari. She was trained by a divine spirit; an "angel" if you will. No other elf alive in the Second Age can make such a claim. This take on Galadriel lacks wisdom.

Elves are physiologically identical to Men. The key exception being that they do not physically age once matured to adulthood, and they are universally beautiful. Some of the actors playing elves lack a certain... ethereal beauty. They are decidedly un-Elvish. Celebrimbor is perhaps the biggest offender.

Not really feeling any of the original characters so far, with exception maybe to Disa and Arondir. Still very early though.

Meteor Man is intriguing (for now), but if he ends up being Sauron or Gandalf I'm going to have things to say. They are making it almost too obvious that he's Gandalf to the point where it feels like a misdirect.

I still would've done without them, but the harfoots haven't been as bad as I feared. I remain wary of just how involved they're going to be in the big picture.

Everything with the dwarves and Khazad-dum was ace.

Please, for the love of God, give us Sauron without a full suit of armor.

Overall, it's a decent enough start. Some lore changes are irritating but otherwise I am interested in continuing on.

As an Irishman the Harfoots are driving me mad, they're coming across as itinerant travellers with Oirish accents, the type Darbey O'Gill would be proud of.

 

[Albright]

Since they didn’t appear until the year 1000 of the 3rd age, you’re probably right.

And the elves were never at Helms Deep, the Death were never at Pelennor,…

 

[InCali]

And the elves were never at Helms Deep, the Death were never at Pelennor,…

Don’t get me started. Lol. I’m no defender of some of PJs decisions.

 

[Sithborg]

As a feminist, I found the attempt to give Galadriel girl power by turning her into essentially your typical masculine loose cannon cop very regressive. It is also something that goes against Tolkien's core themes about not being able to win by strength of arms and victory coming through kindness, mercy, and unlikely strengths. Galadriel personifies traditional feminine virtues like empathy, compassion, kindness, that we need far more of in this world right now than macho martial prowess.

I mean, they were not exactly being subtle in the first two episodes that Galadriel is the way she was shown because of pain and trauma. And that when she is shown to be right, it isn't going to heal the pain and trauma.

 

[Albright]

I like no I love it for what it is: a visual stunning and exciting attempt to connect the PJ version with a historic background.
I‘ve only read the LotR and hobbit, so it doesn’t bother me, that it ain’t tolkien accurate.
For me it is everything I could’ve dreamed of. I‘ve never seen a series that cinematic

And yeah, that shipwrecked guy is Sauron. He‘s from the Southlands (Mordor?), where that boy found the blade

 

[DKDetective]

I mean, they were not exactly being subtle in the first two episodes that Galadriel is the way she was shown because of pain and trauma. And that when she is shown to be right, it isn't going to heal the pain and trauma.

But that is not her character. As a young elf, she was already wise and temperate. She was one of the voices of reason among the Noldor when Morgoth stole the Silmarils and advised against the blood feud and the kinslaying. Then she spent the First Age learning wisdom from a Maia. Her brother was not killed by Sauron. He gave his life saving Beren from the great Wolf. The idea of Galadriel going on some sort of centuries long quest for vengeance is completely the opposite of her character as portrayed both before and after the Second Age.

Going beyond accuracy to Tolkien, it is lazy, cliche writing. It is incredibly regressive to suggest that every great heroine has to be some badass warrior with a chip on their shoulder. There are other kinds of strength and courage.

I get that they need some form of arc for these characters and a more linear central narrative to make Tolkien's Tale of Years work as a drama, but fundamentally changing their existing characters who people love into cliche stereotypes ain't it.

The connecting element of these stories is Sauron. That is actually how the Akallabeth and other Tolkien stories from this era are structured. They should have done something like Hannibal or Breaking Bad and made Sauron the protagonist.

Start the series with the fall of Morgoth and Sauron pleading for mercy and being ordered to go to Valinor for judgment. Show him instead flee and decide to become the master of middle-earth himself. Show him playing the long con with Celebrimbor, founding Mordor, corrupting the Numenoreans, etc. That is the basis for a compelling drama that actually uses what Tolkien wrote.

 

[Persona]

I wish they DID use the appendices. Lol. I waited to see it before I passed any judgment on it, but it really isn’t about Tolkien’s work. I found it somewhat interesting, but not at all similar to the authors writings.

I just reread the appendices and everything they have shown so far connects directly to them.

 

[henzINNIT]

Since they didn’t appear until the year 1000 of the 3rd age, you’re probably right.

The Blue Wizards are fair game. There's talk of them being involved in the second age.

 

[Persona]

But that is not her character. As a young elf, she was already wise and temperate. She was one of the voices of reason among the Noldor when Morgoth stole the Silmarils and advised against the blood feud and the kinslaying. Then she spent the First Age learning wisdom from a Maia. Her brother was not killed by Sauron. He gave his life saving Beren from the great Wolf. The idea of Galadriel going on some sort of centuries long quest for vengeance is completely the opposite of her character as portrayed both before and after the Second Age.

Going beyond accuracy to Tolkien, it is lazy, cliche writing. It is incredibly regressive to suggest that every great heroine has to be some badass warrior with a chip on their shoulder. There are other kinds of strength and courage.

I get that they need some form of arc for these characters and a more linear central narrative to make Tolkien's Tale of Years work as a drama, but fundamentally changing their existing characters who people love into cliche stereotypes ain't it.

The connecting element of these stories is Sauron. That is actually how the Akallabeth and other Tolkien stories from this era are structured. They should have done something like Hannibal or Breaking Bad and made Sauron the protagonist.

Start the series with the fall of Morgoth and Sauron pleading for mercy and being ordered to go to Valinor for judgment. Show him instead flee and decide to become the master of middle-earth himself. Show him playing the long con with Celebrimbor, founding Mordor, corrupting the Numenoreans, etc. That is the basis for a compelling drama that actually uses what Tolkien wrote.

Disagree. Tolkien is extremely vague about a lot of things in the 2nd Age, but there are a lot of things that Tolkien wrote that support this idea of Galadriel, both in terms of her pride, strong will, and ambitions (he said she bore a strong resemblance to her kin Feanor in many ways), that she wanted to stay in Middle Earth because of the threat of Sauron but also to establish her own realm, and so on. He wrote two different versions concerning Galadriel and the ban of the Valar, and the show kind of splits the difference between those while doing its own spin on it. There is the other side of Galadriel, too, the compassionate and wise side. We are getting only small hints of that now (like how she wants to push forward in the Forodwaith until she realizes one of her group has fallen and then she goes back to help them up... already showing this duality in her that is very much what Tolkien described) that I think will grow and grow as the series continues.

There are some things you are wanting the show to show or elucidate that they simply don't have the rights to. I understand that not everyone is going to agree with this conception of Galadriel or Elrond and so on, but to claim that there is no basis in Tolkien's scattered and sometimes contradictory writings about these characters for what the show is doing... not true. The show has the rights to LotR and the showrunners said they use the moment where Galadriel resists the temptation of the Ring to explore all the implications and back story that could exist for that moment. It's fine not to like how they've done that or feel they went to cliched, but I think it was a really smart approach as a starting point and knowing how that moment plays out in FotR, I can totally see how they have arrived at this arc. But I do want to see some more shades of Galadriel soon. I feel like the show might be leading towards that with some of the Halbrand interactions.

BTW, the show is very vague about what exactly happened to Finrod. But you see the Wolf's claw marks on his arm in that shot where Galadriel takes his knife. And in Tolkien's texts Sauron captured Finrod and Beren and and their companions while on their Silmaril quest, imprisoned them in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, and interrogated them. He could not get what he wanted from them and sent a werewolf to devour them. Finrod was saved for last but burst his chains and slew the werewolf when the werewolf came for Beren. Yet in the process Finrod was mortally wounded. Even operating without the rights, the show hints at all that by saying "Sauron found him (Finrod) first" and showing those claw marks. So there really is an effort being made there, and in many other moments in the show, to find a way to coexist with at least some of Tolkien's texts that they don't have rights to.

 

[Persona]

The Blue Wizards are fair game. There's talk of them being involved in the second age.

Yup, Alatar especially, and if it is him then it's pretty easy to see where this is going because Tolkien actually wrote about Alatar's mission in the 2nd Age and it lines right up with the locations in the show and two of the storylines.

At the same time, Tolkien even wrote that Olorin came to Middle Earth for a brief period of time long before he came as Gandalf, though he doesn’t specify exactly when or why.

 

[Boom]

The Blue Wizards are fair game. There's talk of them being involved in the second age.

They're not mentioned in the Appendices. I checked.

 

[Persona]

I like no I love it for what it is: a visual stunning and exciting attempt to connect the PJ version with a historic background.
I‘ve only read the LotR and hobbit, so it doesn’t bother me, that it ain’t tolkien accurate.
For me it is everything I could’ve dreamed of. I‘ve never seen a series that cinematic

And yeah, that shipwrecked guy is Sauron. He‘s from the Southlands (Mordor?), where that boy found the blade

I don't think he's Sauron. But a Nazgul future would not surprise me.

 

[Boom]

Odd that people from the south would be sailing all the way north of the Sundering Seas near Lindon.

 

[Persona]

They're not mentioned in the Appendices. I checked.

The appendices do mention the Istari in general, though. This is where it gets complicated. Are they allowed to show a wizard storyline that was never really written out? I would think so as long as the Tolkien estate okayed it.