Russia and Syria

[Victarion]

So I saw John Kerry's speech where he said the United States could continue to pursue peace in Syria following a breakdown in peacetalks with Russia. My question is, why are we intervening in their business?

Especially given how well Iraq went back in the oughties.

 

[Thundercrack85]

So I saw John Kerry's speech where he said the United States could continue to pursue peace in Syria following a breakdown in peacetalks with Russia. My question is, why are we intervening in their business?

Especially given how well Iraq went back in the oughties.

Well, there ares some really pressing geopolitical and humanitarian concerns.

The US has been laboring under the impression that Assad's fall from power is inevitable. Thinking that, they want a role in deciding who will replace him. Syria has traditionally been in the Russia's orbit. For the US, the ideal situation is Assad being deposed, and him being replaced by a moderate Sunni government friendly to the US interests.

From a humanitarian perspective, Assad and Russia are committing horrible war crimes, and it's causing an unprecedented refugee crisis.

It's also worth pointing out that this war is no longer a strictly Syrian matter. It is no longer contained to Syria. Lebanon and Turkey are both becoming destabilized, and the situation in Iraq and Libya are only getting worse as ISIS grows. Economically, Europe is struggling to cope with the influx of refugees and migrants. There's also a huge security issue, thanks largely due to Germany's reckless policies. The situation is spiraling out of control.

 

[E.NormusJohnson]

So I saw John Kerry's speech where he said the United States could continue to pursue peace in Syria following a breakdown in peacetalks with Russia. My question is, why are we intervening in their business?

Especially given how well Iraq went back in the oughties.

'Cause we backed a few rebel groups who took on Assad (even though we didn't know who they were at the time. Suprise!) so we are at the very least culpable to what has taken place in Syria.

 

[Victarion]

Is there any logical reason that we should jump in if you discount humanitarian concerns or us arming the rebels? It seems to me we've done the damage - may as well let it play out and keep from doing further harm.

 

[DeadPresident]

"Letting it play out" appears to equate to a genocide.

 

[Victarion]

Is there any reason we can't let them fight their own wars? After Iraq and our prolonged engagement with ISIS, I'm getting burnt out on us playing world police.

 

[DeadPresident]

Every arm chair leftist and non-Anglo Saxon extraction person is going to continue their narrative of the West being colonizer scum from the past that owe everyone an eternal debt by cleaning up their messes. And to be fair the West founded organizations like the UN precisely to avoid further humanitarian atrocities, primarily in the West, but which now have global reach.

Also, at the risk of sounding like elitist soapboxer, I'm not sure if half these dumps are even capable of fighting their own wars. The majority of these folks are barely above subsistence farmers, they're sitting ducks. At the risk of going in and making it worse, I'm not sure the moral position to take is to allow civilians to be slaughtered inside their own country by their "own people'. There's no quick fix, though, the whole thing is a cluster****.

 

[Victarion]

****ing-A on the cluster****. I literally don't know who's fighting who and had no idea they were dancing around genocide.

 

[DeadPresident]

The conflict consists of a large number of factions and I'm not even sure what everyone's position is, but, Assad has used chemical weapons against his own people and multiple other countries are backing specific factions. It's effectively like a bunch of kids running around an ant hill with magnifying glasses, the kids being the USA, Turkey, Russia, etc and the civilians around the conflict zones being the ants caught in the middle.

If left unchecked this will continue being a melee that will result in a last man standing scenario with an atrocious death toll. The problem with most nations in the ME like Syria is these tribalist conflicts will always arise, due to Western interference or not. These countries' populations need to be protected from themselves, otherwise one or another faction or militia will pop up at some stage and try to subvert everyone to their arbitrary will. Having any weapons in the ME will eventually result in one "tribe" trying to eliminate another.

 

[Victarion]

I knew they always had a tribalist bent in general, regardless of how much you'd try imposing your system of democracy - that's why I was more game with cutting losses and keeping out of it. I just don't like the idea of throwing our soldiers' lives away on this kind of cluster****.

 

[SV Fan]

Is there any reason we can't let them fight their own wars? After Iraq and our prolonged engagement with ISIS, I'm getting burnt out on us playing world police.

The main problem to me getting your nose dirty is no matter what you do, something bad will happen(that includes doing nothing as an option).

Personally I wish the US would push other countries to do their part and not expect us to pay for everything

 

[DeadPresident]

Yeah, that's an option. The problem is that they've been armed, and countries like Iran or Russia will keep arming certain factions even if the USA stops. The effective outcome is that if the USA doesn't keep providing arms then it's essentially condemning the faction they stop supporting to being eradicated by whoever the stronger ones are.

It's in full meltdown, either people will be displaced because they'll flee to Europe, since there is no solidarity among these nations due to the tribalist dynamic, or they will be killed by rival factions. These people can't change their sociocultural beliefs any more than they can change their ethnicities, and each faction is treating this as a zero sum game effectively. For anyone with a moral conscience this is going to be a choice between only bad options:

1) Support certain factions and perpetuate the conflict
2) Watch refugees flock to the West and fail to assimilate, likely perpetuating terrorism throughout the West
3) Withdraw and allow international news to cover civilians and militia members die in their droves

That's basically it.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Is there any logical reason that we should jump in if you discount humanitarian concerns or us arming the rebels? It seems to me we've done the damage - may as well let it play out and keep from doing further harm.

The destabilization of the entire region and an influx of migrants into Europe will cause serious economic problems. It basically caused Brexit, and it's only going to get worse if we do nothing.

 

[Ridleyn]

i think there is a ocult politic game in syria,much more than only a civil war...

 

[PPZVGOS]

i think there is a ocult politic game in syria,much more than only a civil war...

The Syrian War is part Civil War, part proxy war and part proto-WWIII

Key words: gas pipelines, Shia Crescent (under the Russian aegis) Yinon Plan, strategic ellipse, marginal cost of oil/gas, hydrocarbon reserves, Russian presence in the Middle East.

 

[Chance Jackson]

The destabilization of the entire region and an influx of migrants into Europe will cause serious economic problems. It basically caused Brexit, and it's only going to get worse if we do nothing.

Our involvement helped this problem to become the disaster that it is just like Libya, Iraq and post Mozadegh Iran.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Our involvement helped this problem to become the disaster that it is just like Libya, Iraq and post Mozadegh Iran.

Well, I agree with you on Iraq and Iran. But was doing nothing really an option in Libya?

 

[Smashlilman]

So I saw John Kerry's speech where he said the United States could continue to pursue peace in Syria following a breakdown in peacetalks with Russia. My question is, why are we intervening in their business?

Especially given how well Iraq went back in the oughties.

Because this is actually about an Pipeline that passes through Syria to Europe. The Humanitarian thing is just a cover to justify our presence there. US/QATAR vs Russian/Iran. Syria is just a chess piece.

 

[OutOfBoose]

So I saw John Kerry's speech where he said the United States could continue to pursue peace in Syria following a breakdown in peacetalks with Russia. My question is, why are we intervening in their business?

Especially given how well Iraq went back in the oughties.

1) Larger goal, I think - control of Europe (which US is slowly losing) and thus forcing it to accept Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership, which gives massive advantage to US corporations. But endangers Europe's economics.
2) How can it be done? Control of energy resources valve. If US manages to connect it's slaves in Middle East to Europe, it can force political and economics decisions in Europe.
3) For US there's a problem - Syria (and it's current government) is an ally of Russia and Iran. Who want to sell it's energy resources to Europe themselves, thus make Europe depend on economic connections with Russia.
4) The whole rhetoric about rights, legitimate government and stuff, some made-up crimes against Syrian society by Asad - it's just a cover up for demolition of current pro-Russian (and, to be honest, pro-Syrian, since Russia is interested in stability in the region) government in Syria.
5) Main instrument for this - so-called "moderate opposition", which is, in truth, thugs and terrorists, who kill children, chop heads and do whatever they like. They have support and media cover-up of US and it's sattelites, as well as financial support.
6) The last thing US needs in this situation, since Asad doesn't resign and supported by people - peace in Syria. Asad should leave, new government should obey US.
7) But US politicians created massive problems for themselves, when they decided to use terrorists (not for the first time, in the past 50 years) as an instrument for "regime" demolition. Their anti-human and anti-muslim methods are despised, locals are suffering - they die, they get abused, they're being robbed, they're used as slaves and life shield against Syrian army. That's why Syria is a natural ally for Russia, which suffered a lot from radical Islam.

 

[Chance Jackson]

doing nothing really an option in Libya?

Yes it was an option; a good one if humanitarian concerns or preventing chaos is a priority. Our reasons for ousting Gaddafi were entirely self serving to the ones who made the decision:

1. Gaddafi wanted to launch a new gold backed currency
A. This would challenge France's financial hegemony in the area which is why france lobbied hard for this(this probably also count as "repairing relationships with our allies")

B. Since this new currency would most likely be the currency libyan oil is traded it would also threaten/weaken the petro dollar(protecting the petro dollar is also why we went to war with Iraq)

 

[TheComicbookKid]

Putin is going to lay waste to this whole area.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Putin is going to lay waste to this whole area.

Putin could invade Germany and Trump wouldn't lift a finger.

 

[chamber-music]

Turkish President/Autocrat Erdogan is still going on about reviving the Ottoman empire

Erdogan wants to rule over some of the most unstable regions in the world. Good luck with that
There would be a coup within six months if he starts trying to reclaim old Ottoman territory and this time it would be successful.

Between Putin looking to recapture the old USSR borders and Erdogan continuing to voicing a desire to recapture Ottoman Empire territory we could well be looking at a potential WW3 if these two dimwits keep up with this stuff.

 

[Isildur´s Heir]

Turkish President/Autocrat Erdogan is still going on about reviving the Ottoman empire

Erdogan wants to rule over some of the most unstable regions in the world. Good luck with that
There would be a coup within six months if he starts trying to reclaim old Ottoman territory and this time it would be successful.

Between Putin looking to recapture the old USSR borders and Erdogan continuing to voicing a desire to recapture Ottoman Empire territory we could well be looking at a potential WW3 if these two dimwits keep up with this stuff.

The world seem to want to go back.

Erdogan wants the Ottaman Empire back, Putin wants the URSS and the US seems to want to go back to the 60s and even Europe seems to want to destroy the UE.

I fear for the world...

I imagine Putin, Erdogan and Trump looking like my avatar

 

[TheComicbookKid]

Don't forget China is about to smash Taiwan and make some major land moves.