Season 7, Episode 3 "The Queen's Justice" Discussion Thread

[squeekness]

This is your fault Squeeks, as the TV Master. You should have had a raven sent the moment Mads was announced.

Lol, I'll try to do better next time.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

I'm curious though, did Ned only really marry Catelyn because his older brother was murdered by Aerys? Like it was a political marriage. Catelyn was married to the elder Stark first and then married Ned as a result. Did they really even know each other at all before they wed? Other than that Catelyn was his older brother's spouse?

Catelyn actually talks about that very thing in ....season 3 I think. She even points out that she didn't know him at all before they were married but grew to love him. I think it was the episode where she is talking to Rob about marrying a girl he doesn't even know.

 

[TheVileOne]

Makes sense. I do recall that conversation, when Robb basically messed up by breaking his agreement to marry one of Frey's children.

 

[Iceman]

It's just another example of how these types of marriages amongst the royal or stately families for political advantage, power, influence or maybe even more importantly the security of the people under the rule of those families, would be typical in the history of most countries of the world, and certainly in a GoT medieval era type setting. Going against the interests of your people for personal reasons would be a selfish act (which Robb admits), and indeed led to catastrophe for many of them when the rightfully insulted party sought out revenge (the nature of which obviously wasn't rightful in any way!).

 

[Warhorse]

]I feel even more for Ned Stark considering he had to make his own wife believe he had sired a son from another woman to sell the illusion that Jon Snow was his bastard. [/B] When the whole time Ned was never unfaithful to his vows with Catelyn at all, and Catelyn had to die never knowing the truth that Ned was true to her the entire time.

I'm curious though, did Ned only really marry Catelyn because his older brother was murdered by Aerys? Like it was a political marriage. Catelyn was married to the elder Stark first and then married Ned as a result. Did they really even know each other at all before they wed? Other than that Catelyn was his older brother's spouse?

Did Ned really have to lie to his wife and the world in that way? Didn't he take in Theon as some sort of spoils of war, so why couldn't he just say Jon was the child of a brave civilian that sacrificed his life for Ned. It's a lie, sure, but not one that would destroy the family.

 

[Iceman]

Did Ned really have to lie to his wife and the world in that way? Didn't he take in Theon as some sort of spoils of war, so why couldn't he just say Jon was the child of a brave civilian that sacrificed his life for Ned. It's a lie, sure, but not one that would destroy the family.

Good point. I think there are other believable stories that he could have come up with like the example you gave. And giving up on your loving wife in this way so that she dies without ever knowing the truth, I mean what exactly are we all living for lol. If they had used that exact story about the brave civilian then Cat would have no reason to be nasty to the kid. And would her not being nasty arouse false suspicion that the kid was anything more than the child of a brave civilian (in the way that her not being nasty to Jon Snow would arouse suspicion that he is actually something much more)? It just seems like an unnecessary sacrifice.

 

[Reek]

Ned lied because Lyanna made him promise to protect Jon and not tell anyone the truth. He's honorable, but his family means more to him than his honor... as shown in 'Baelor'.

It's his sister's son... so naturally he raised him as his own.

Plus.. Ned knows women can't keep a secret so he didn't tell Cat

 

[KevTravels]

It's just another example of how these types of marriages amongst the royal or stately families for political advantage, power, influence or maybe even more importantly the security of the people under the rule of those families, would be typical in the history of most countries of the world, and certainly in a GoT medieval era type setting. Going against the interests of your people for personal reasons would be a selfish act (which Robb admits), and indeed led to catastrophe for many of them when the rightfully insulted party sought out revenge (the nature of which obviously wasn't rightful in any way!).

Great point.

But was House Frey so pissed over this that they sought out the Lannisters or did they seek out the Lannisters when Robb began losing the war?

 

[KevTravels]

Did Ned really have to lie to his wife and the world in that way? Didn't he take in Theon as some sort of spoils of war, so why couldn't he just say Jon was the child of a brave civilian that sacrificed his life for Ned. It's a lie, sure, but not one that would destroy the family.

But then Jon definitely would not have been raised so close to the Starks. I wonder if he could have been happy seeing his nephew (and rightful king) living as a servant.

I can't imagine though that he would have allowed Catelyn to be such a B to Jon. I mean it's his nephew. I really wish we could have more insight on Jon's upbringing and relation to how others treated him. Like servants or other nobles.

Because it's not unnatural that a noble would have a bastard. It's odd that Ned would only have one. Though, his honor is what defines him.

 

[Reek]

I believe the Lannisters reached out to house Frey once they heard of Robbs betrayal... and Roose reached out to the Lannisters once Robb killed Karstark. I'll have to refresh my memory of that one.

 

[Warhorse]

Ned lied because Lyanna made him promise to protect Jon and not tell anyone the truth. He's honorable, but his family means more to him than his honor... as shown in 'Baelor'.

It's his sister's son... so naturally he raised him as his own.

Plus.. Ned knows women can't keep a secret so he didn't tell Cat

But didn't you read what I wrote? He could have made up a lie like he was a spoil of war, and took him home and raised him as he did Theon. No reason to shame the family or his wife.

 

[Reek]

jon was a newborn baby... theon was like 8.

I dont know... maybe you're right... I just don't think Ned would make Jon a 'spoil of war' given his affection for Lyanna.

 

[Roose Bolton]

Did Ned really have to lie to his wife and the world in that way? Didn't he take in Theon as some sort of spoils of war, so why couldn't he just say Jon was the child of a brave civilian that sacrificed his life for Ned. It's a lie, sure, but not one that would destroy the family.

He did have to lie, because in the books its stated that Jon looks ridiculously like a young Ned Stark. He had the Stark look more than any of Ned's children save for Arya, who was described as a miniature Lyanna Stark in terms of appearance and character.

The kid was clearly related to him so he couldn't really say anything else.

 

[Guts]

 

[TheVileOne]

The impression for Jon is that calling him a spoil of war probably would've been too hard to fabricate. It seems Robert easily accepted the idea that he was off to war and slept around and sired a bastard. Robert sowed more than his fair share of his royal oats and sired many bastards as well. Even though Ned was so honorable, he was probably able to convince Robert that he got wild one night before a fight, had a fling and Jon was the result.

Jon being his own bastard is probably just simpler and easier than he took him from a fallen enemy.

 

[Reek]

and it's not like he can tell people he took a Targaryen when Robert was hell bent on killing them all.

 

[Roose Bolton]

At the end of the day I don't think Cat was very trustworthy in that sense. She came to love Ned and the life they made together, but she was also very much Hoster Tully's daughter.

 

[Reek]

shes also a ginger... we know they cant be trusted.

 

[Jesse]

This episode felt a little slower than the previous one but it was still interesting. I really enjoyed seeing Jon Snow meet Daenerys and was glad to see he didn't bend the knee. It is kind of weird now that the audience knows they are half siblings but they don't. I also liked seeing Ser Jorah cured of greyscale disease and am curious where his story will go if and when he reunites with Daenerys. Another reunion this week with Bran returning to Winterfell. I'm kind of sad to see Diana Rigg's character get killed off. Her scenes with Charles Dance earlier in the series were some of my favorites.

 

[TheFuture]

He did have to lie, because in the books its stated that Jon looks ridiculously like a young Ned Stark. He had the Stark look more than any of Ned's children save for Arya, who was described as a miniature Lyanna Stark in terms of appearance and character.

The kid was clearly related to him so he couldn't really say anything else.

I wonder if Ned was worried about the opposite end of the spectrum: that Job would follow his father in appearance.

My experience with babies is that at times, you'll see a little bit of both sides of the family in them from day to day. It takes a fair few years before you can say definitively who they take after.

Then again if Jon had his mother's eyes rather than purple I guess that would have encouraged Ned from off the bat.

 

[Roose Bolton]

I'd suppose if Jon favoured Rhaegar then Ned would have more openly let the Ashara Dayne rumour have its time in the sun. The Daynes have Valyrian features enough that he might have gotten away with it.

 

[Warhorse]

I wonder if Ned was worried about the opposite end of the spectrum: that Job would follow his father in appearance.

My experience with babies is that at times, you'll see a little bit of both sides of the family in them from day to day. It takes a fair few years before you can say definitively who they take after.

Then again if Jon had his mother's eyes rather than purple I guess that would have encouraged Ned from off the bat.

Funny you say this. If Ned took Jon in as his own, knowing that more than likely Jon would retain the more dominant roots of dark hair and eyes, you would think he and Robert would have been more wary of why Roberts kids had the blonde hair and not the dark hair that the Starks and Baratheons were known for.

I guess both men were kind of dumb.

 

[KevTravels]

Ned did what he figured was best. shame that he couldn't reveal this to Catelyn sometime over the years. I guess his only other option was maybe having a trusted friend watch over Jon in some northern village as he came of age.

 

[Iceman]

Funny you say this. If Ned took Jon in as his own, knowing that more than likely Jon would retain the more dominant roots of dark hair and eyes, you would think he and Robert would have been more wary of why Roberts kids had the blonde hair and not the dark hair that the Starks and Baratheons were known for.

I guess both men were kind of dumb.

Haha, certainly not the sharpest guys in Westeros.

 

[Warhorse]

Haha, certainly not the sharpest guys in Westeros.

Hey, I watched a marriage crumble when a man was suspicious of their child because his mother pointed out the kids hairline. HAIRLINE. I guess it resembled more closely to someone else they knew, so he took his boy to the doctor and asked for a DNA test, and it was confirmed. The boy was not his. She had an affair with her boss at work.