Season 8 Theories and Speculation

[conan69]

I'd forgotten that Aryas dagger was shown in the citadel book until my second time seeing the episode.

 

[MaceB]

No it's not, it can be. Not subverting expectations for its own sake can be bad too.
Avengers Infinity War subverted expectations and it worked.

That was not a subversion for it's own sake. That twist was 1) the first part of a continuation... in other words... in the middle of the story... which I've said is much better.
2) it increased the stakes for endgame. There are no more stakes to raise at the end of GOT though. This is as high as the stakes get.
3) Didn't hurt any of the character or thwart years of storytelling. Now... if Thanos was about to make the snap, but Pepper Pots flew in at the last minute and killed Thanos in 2 moves.. that'd be a bad twist... a twist for it's own sake. A hollow effort to subvert expectation instead of to make a satisfying conclusion.

Making a twist just so you can make a twist is poor writing. Having Arya kill the night king was a shallow, lazy effort to subvert expectations and nothing more. Arya's actions are not earned. They come out of nowhere. It actually commits the mortal sin, which is that it makes the actions that come before it less meaningful. Why should i bother rewatching the Night's Watch plot line? They were all worthless. They talked about it for years, only to have a teenager do the job for them in the last second.

 

[Rocco]

That was not a subversion for it's own sake. That twist was 1) the first part of a continuation... in other words... in the middle of the story... which I've said is much better.
2) it increased the stakes for endgame. There are no more stakes to raise at the end of GOT though. This is as high as the stakes get.
3) Didn't hurt any of the character or thwart years of storytelling. Now... if Thanos was about to make the snap, but Pepper Pots flew in at the last minute and killed Thanos in 2 moves.. that'd be a bad twist... a twist for it's own sake. A hollow effort to subvert expectation instead of to make a satisfying conclusion.

Making a twist just so you can make a twist is poor writing. Having Arya kill the night king was a shallow, lazy effort to subvert expectations and nothing more. Arya's actions are not earned. They come out of nowhere. It actually commits the mortal sin, which is that it makes the actions that come before it less meaningful. Why should i bother rewatching the Night's Watch plot line? They were all worthless. They talked about it for years, only to have a teenager do the job for them in the last second.

It actually was since they kept making us think Thor was going to kill him and had until the last second. Not everyone knew except us nerds that they filmed the third and fourth Avengers films back to back. We didn't know or think they would end Infinity War with the snap based on how they were building it up.
So for you Arya needed to have interacted with the white walkers more for it to feel earned and be emotional? Saving her brother and humanity is pretty emotional I'd say.

 

[MaceB]

I agree that it wasn't a subversion for its own sake. I never said otherwise, just that it was a subversion that worked, kind of. They brought them all back in Endgame so were the stakes really that high? That's another discussion though.
So for you Arya needed to have interacted with the white walkers more for it to feel earned and be emotional? Saving her brother and humanity is pretty emotional I'd say.

Yes.... they elevated the stakes with that twist. The value of a twist isn't determined by how a story is resolved. Regardless of how GOT ends, the Red Wedding will still and always be a great twist, cause it raised the stakes and took the show in exciting new direction. Same is true for Infinity War, and ESB, etc. What we got last week was unlike that though. It was more akin to TLJ than anything else. Instead of an "I am your father" moment... we got a Snoke gets killed without warning moment. One is extremely satisfying and surprising... the other is an extreme let down. This was an extreme letdown. It was a twist, that subverted our expectations... when, in fact, our expectations were far more interesting than what we got.

 

[Roose Bolton]

I think the difference with TLJ is...Snoke was always a pretty lame character, he was a shallow Palpatine ripoff from the start, so I can’t say that I felt too miffed when he suddenly died. The Night King however, while equally mysterious had more of a presence that was build up over the course of a few seasons.

 

[Donner]

What was the point of his whole spiral-made-of-body-parts? I've read arguments on Reddit where people say that the NK is just a former First Man who was created to kill and that's it. They were arguing that his motivations and backstory weren't necessary because the Children of the Forest made him to wipe out men and that's all the backstory we need.

Which would be a fine argument if he didn't mutilate people and nail their body parts to walls in a specific pattern. It definitely implies that there is more to the story and more to the NK than just him being a killer.

 

[MaceB]

What was the point of his whole spiral-made-of-body-parts? I've read arguments on Reddit where people say that the NK is just a former First Man who was created to kill and that's it. They were arguing that his motivations and backstory weren't necessary because the Children of the Forest made him to wipe out men and that's all the backstory we need.

Which would be a fine argument if he didn't mutilate people and nail their body parts to walls in a specific pattern. It definitely implies that there is more to the story and more to the NK than just a killer.

Those patterns are similar or identical to the patterns that the Children of the Forest make. I think the writers of the show said something like... the NK swirls are meant to be kinda 1) a showing of where the Night King came from and 2) his way to desecrate their imagery.

 

[Reek]

yea like an upside down cross

 

[MaceB]

The Sweet Prince that was promised.

 

[Perfect Cell]

He would have preferred to make the bad man fly, but as we've seen, the Night King doesn't take fall damage.

 

[MaceB]

Robin is the true heir to the Iron Throne. You heard it here first.

 

[TheVileOne]

What was the point of his whole spiral-made-of-body-parts? I've read arguments on Reddit where people say that the NK is just a former First Man who was created to kill and that's it. They were arguing that his motivations and backstory weren't necessary because the Children of the Forest made him to wipe out men and that's all the backstory we need.

Which would be a fine argument if he didn't mutilate people and nail their body parts to walls in a specific pattern. It definitely implies that there is more to the story and more to the NK than just him being a killer.

The answer, just like Snoke's ring, is absolutely nothing.

 

[Incredible Hans]

It was foreshadowed that Daenerys will sit on the Iron Throne in the end.
It was foreshadowed that Jon will sit on the Iron Throne in the end.
I expect that neither Daenerys nor Jon will sit on the Iron Throne in the end (because it was foreshadowed so much).
Will people get angry about it if I*m right? Probably.
Just like it is the case right now with how the Night King died.

 

[MaceB]

Really very different things. And Jon was never really foreshadowed to sit on the Iron Throne. Dany... kinda. You could make the case that it was more foreshadowed that she'd never sit on the Iron Throne. It's a bad comparison in my view.

 

[TheVileOne]

I feel like David Benioff and Weiss are bad at foreshadowing things because literally all the things they foreshadowed didn't matter at all.

 

[Incredible Hans]

Really very different things. And Jon was never really foreshadowed to sit on the Iron Throne. Dany... kinda. You could make the case that it was more foreshadowed that she'd never sit on the Iron Throne. It's a bad comparison in my view.

I feel that the Night King*s death and Legolas destroying the One Ring are very different things, for reasons already stated by another user.

 

[MaceB]

It has nothing to do with Lord of the Rings... it has to do with the scenario. Any scenario in which we've spent a considerable time with a hero... only for another character to swoop in and kill their antagonist for them basically. I can't really think of a scenario in which that would be good. That's exactly what happened here. Han Solo came in to kill Darth Vader. Pepper Potts came in to kill Thanos. The FBI comes in at the last minute to defeat the T2 in Terminator. Take your pick.

 

[TheFuture]

It was foreshadowed that Daenerys will sit on the Iron Throne in the end.
It was foreshadowed that Jon will sit on the Iron Throne in the end.
I expect that neither Daenerys nor Jon will sit on the Iron Throne in the end (because it was foreshadowed so much).
Will people get angry about it if I*m right? Probably.
Just like it is the case right now with how the Night King died.

King's Landing probably gets obliterated so hopefully no one ends up on the bloody thing. They've told us for so long that the throne doesn't matter that it's probably the least intruiging thing to me about the remaining episodes.

I mean Westeros is so ****ed politically speaking I doubt anyone can unite the 7 Kingdoms again so I expect the landscape to me carved up. Jon being a Targaryen isn't going to magically cause 7 Kingdoms to unite once more. Well at least I'd hope so because if it did, that would be awful from D&D.

 

[Reek]

Look... ok... fine... whatever.... I'm just here to reassure everyone that Hotpie is, in fact, alive and well.... That baker and his glorious valyrian steel spatula are going to **** up all sorts of things... just you watch.

 

[Rocco]

It has nothing to do with Lord of the Rings... it has to do with the scenario. Any scenario in which we've spent a considerable time with a hero... only for another character to swoop in and kill their antagonist for them basically. I can't really think of a scenario in which that would be good. That's exactly what happened here. Han Solo came in to kill Darth Vader. Pepper Potts came in to kill Thanos. The FBI comes in at the last minute to defeat the T2 in Terminator. Take your pick.

We know it's about the scenario and not the Lord of the Rings LOL. The scenario is very different in Lord of the Rings compared to this situation in GOT, if it wasn't then I'd agree 100%. Arya didn't show up out of nowhere to that battle. She was always there at that battle. Pepper Potts showing up to a battle she was never part of yeah that would have been stupid, Han Solo as well. Also, the night king is no "one ring" or "darth vader."
Look if it hadn't played out the way it did with Arya and how they found a way to tie it back even if they really didn't need to then I'd be with you all the way my friend. I get it. I wanted Jon to have a win, I really did but he really was never the hero so many thought he was. He's the anti-Aragorn, very flawed the way GRRM likes his heroes. He's failed so much lol and has had to be coaxed into things. A buddy at work here this morning said that and I was like "yeah that's true" LOL GOT is clearly not about certain heroes facing off against their own personal nemesis. There will probably be an exception with the Hound and the Mountain but other than that.

 

[Rocco]

We know it's about the scenario and not the Lord of the Rings LOL. The scenario is very different in Lord of the Rings compared to this situation in GOT, if it wasn't then I'd agree 100%. Arya didn't show up out of nowhere to that battle. She was always there at that battle. Pepper Potts showing up to a battle she was never part of yeah that would have been stupid, Han Solo as well.
Look if it hadn't played out the way it did with Arya and how they found a way to tie it back even if they really didn't need to then I'd be with you all the way my friend. I get it. I wanted Jon to have a win, I really did but he really was never the hero so many thought he was. He's failed so much lol and has had to be coaxed into things. A buddy at work here this morning said that and I was like "yeah that's true" LOL

The Sweet Prince that was promised.

View attachment 24359

Robyn killing the night king would have made no sense at all. Arya obviously makes more sense even if you hate it. It's not like every other character not Jon wouldn't have worked. Robyn was never on the same journey or position as Arya. I can see why she was chosen by the showrunners. They clearly put more thought into it than we give them credit for in the explanation for it.

 

[MaceB]

We know it's about the scenario and not the Lord of the Rings LOL. The scenario is very different in Lord of the Rings compared to this situation in GOT, if it wasn't then I'd agree 100%. Arya didn't show up out of nowhere to that battle. She was always there at that battle. Pepper Potts showing up to a battle she was never part of yeah that would have been stupid, Han Solo as well. Also, the night king is no "one ring" or "darth vader."
Look if it hadn't played out the way it did with Arya and how they found a way to tie it back even if they really didn't need to then I'd be with you all the way my friend. I get it. I wanted Jon to have a win, I really did but he really was never the hero so many thought he was. He's the anti-Aragorn, very flawed the way GRRM likes his heroes. He's failed so much lol and has had to be coaxed into things. A buddy at work here this morning said that and I was like "yeah that's true" LOL GOT is clearly not about certain heroes facing off against their own personal nemesis. There will probably be an exception with the Hound and the Mountain but other than that.

By that logic, you'd be cool with Gendry killing the Night King? He was there after all. Dance around it however you want, but at the very last second... someone swooped in and defeated the big bad with nearly no compelling reason as to why. That's how it's similar. Imagine if Black Panther's sister came in at the last minute and defeated his villain (I can't remember the dude's name). She was there... she had the physical capacity to do it... she knew the suit better than anyone. Why didn't the writers do that? It sure would be a surprise. They didn't do it because it would have been a surprise at the expense of the story.

But that'd be a hugely dissatisfying resolution, just like this was here. When the lead character (for all intents and purposes) spends literally the entire show preparing for something... only to have that something performed by someone else at literally the last second.... it's a letdown.

Like I've said... several times... I'm open to them fixing this. But if the Night King is never mentioned again and this isn't clarified... it's a waste at best, and an absolute insult at worst. You keep saying... "dude, dude, dude.. I understand... but let me tell you how you're wrong." Doesn't sound like you understand much at all... or you're doing your best not to. I'm dissatisfied with this ending, and I've explained why very thoroughly. You don't care... a random twist seems like it's enough for you. Great. I'm glad you had a good experience. I need more. And if I don't get more, then I'll be very disappointed in the show... as will others.... for obvious reasons that have been outlined for you like a dozen times now.

 

[Rocco]

By that logic, you'd be cool with Gendry killing the Night King? He was there after all. Dance around it however you want, but at the very last second... someone swooped in and defeated the big bad with nearly no compelling reason as to why. That's how it's similar. Imagine if Black Panther's sister came in at the last minute and defeated his villain (I can't remember the dude's name). She was there... she had the physical capacity to do it... she knew the suit better than anyone. Why didn't the writers do that? It sure would be a surprise. They didn't do it because it would have been a surprise at the expense of the story.

But that'd be a hugely dissatisfying resolution, just like this was here. When the lead character (for all intents and purposes) spends literally the entire show preparing for something... only to have that something performed by someone else at literally the last second.... it's a letdown.

Like I've said... several times... I'm open to them fixing this. But if the Night King is never mentioned again and this isn't clarified... it's a waste at best, and an absolute insult at worst. You keep saying... "dude, dude, dude.. I understand... but let me tell you how you're wrong." Doesn't sound like you understand much at all... or you're doing your best not to. I'm dissatisfied with this ending, and I've explained why very thoroughly. You don't care... a random twist seems like it's enough for you. Great. I'm glad you had a good experience. I need more. And if I don't get more, then I'll be very disappointed in the show... as will others.... for obvious reasons that have been outlined for you like a dozen times now.

No because it was Arya and they came up with a reason why that at least made sense for the show. If it was anyone other than Jon and Arya with no tie back that made me go "Ooohhhh well holy ****" then I would have hated it. You keep comparing Arya to every other character that was there and Arya is more special than them honestly. It seems I'm upsetting you not my intention. I do understand actually. I'm not trying to frustrate you. I like good debate. I'm just trying to argue the decision in hopes you'll at least go "oh ok yeah I can see why this can be allowed as one possible and acceptable scenario besides Jon doing the deed." I tried lol. No hard feelings.

 

[MaceB]

No because it was Arya and they came up with a reason why that at least made sense for the show. If it was anyone other than Jon and Arya with no tie back that made me go "Ooohhhh well holy ****" then I would have hated it. It seems I'm upsetting you not my intention. I do understand actually. I'm not trying to frustrate you. I'm just trying to argue the decision in hopes you'll at least go "oh ok yeah I can see why this can be allowed as one possible and acceptable scenario besides Jon doing the deed." I tried lol. No hard feelings.

There's nothing tying it back to Arya either though. Like I've said like 4 times now... if Gendry had done it. People could point to Gendry's line about how Jon's father and his father fight together and won... being foreshadowing. No it wasn't. If Brianne had done it... people could say, "look! She said that they'd die with honor... Foreshadowing!" No it wasn't. If Don Darian had done it... people could say, "see! He said it was destiny. It was foreshadowed all along." No it wasn't.

The blue eyes, brown eyes prophecy is all you've got, and I'm sorry - it's a stretch. In that scene, Melissandre was basically caught off guard. She looked into Arya's eyes and was like, "woa! You're going to kill a lot of people! I see them in you! We'll meet again." That in no way alludes to the Night King unless you contort it to do so.

I'm getting frustrated cause we're going in circles. I've asked... so many times now... what value does Arya bring to this scene? And no one can tell me. It doesn't complete her arc in any way. It doesn't lead to any emotional growth. The only value it provides is to make the Night King less intimidating. Don't agree with me? Then prove me wrong... what value does she uniquely bring that Jon couldn't? ... besides the fact that it was an empty twist. Because if it really is all about the twist, then anyone could have done it. This was fan service. Fans like Arya, so they decided to give fans her moment. That's the only reason as far as I can tell, and I haven't heard one answer as to why that wouldn't be the case.

 

[Rocco]

There's nothing tying it back to Arya either though. Like I've said like 4 times now... if Gendry had done it. People could point to Gendry's line about how Jon's father and his father fight together and won... being foreshadowing. No it wasn't. If Brianne had done it... people could say, "look! She said that they'd die with honor... Foreshadowing!" No it wasn't.

The blue eyes, brown eyes prophecy is all you've got, and I'm sorry - it's a stretch. In that scene, Melissandre was basically caught off guard. She looked into Arya's eyes and was like, "woa! You're going to kill a lot of people! I see them in you! We'll meet again." That in no way alludes to the Night King unless you contort it to do so.

I'm getting frustrated cause we're going in circles. I've asked... so many times now... what value does Arya bring to this scene? And no one can tell me. It doesn't complete her arc in any way. It doesn't lead to any emotional growth. The only value it provides is to make the Night King less intimidating. Don't agree with me? Then prove me wrong... what value does she uniquely bring that Jon couldn't? ... besides the fact that it was an empty twist. Because if it really is all about the twist, then anyone could have done it. This was fan service. Fans like Arya, so they decided to give fans her moment. That's the only reason as well as I can tell, and I haven't heard one answer as to why that wouldn't be the case.

Yes they contorted it with Arya because they knew they could. Gendry and Brienne didn't have the Melisandre prediction, Bran being Arya's brother, and the god of death connection. That's the only way quite frankly D&D could get away with it. It's not a lot but it's something. If it wasn't for those reasons then I would reject it entirely. You can always stop responding lol. So I've told you and you don't like it which is fine. I don't think it has anything to do with value besides she's saving her brother. He's Jon's cousin. I'm also not saying Jon doing it wouldn't have brought value, it absolutely would. A friend and co-worker never once thought that Jon should have done it out of value. So it seems it wouldn't have brought value to the situation for everyone. It would have for you and me obviously.