Season 8 Theories and Speculation

[blackdragon6]

I really hope the ending spoilers I saw are fake.

I saw them, and if true I can see why people were rooting for The NK. I mean just kill these idiots already

 

[Motown Marvel]

It's ridiculous how many people are suddenly complaining about dragon glass and/or Valyrian steel killing the Night King when this has been the known plan ever since Sam killed a White Walker with dragon glass 5 seasons ago. If you wanna have a sore ass over Arya getting the kill, fine; but the dragon glass isn't really something you can complain about at this point.

 

[Iceman]

It's ridiculous how many people are suddenly complaining about dragon glass and/or Valyrian steel killing the Night King when this has been the known plan ever since Sam killed a White Walker with dragon glass 5 seasons ago. If you wanna have a sore ass over Arya getting the kill, fine; but the dragon glass isn't really something you can complain about at this point.

I've got no problem with Arya getting the kill, I quite like that side of it. I just wish it wasn't her alone with everyone else pretty much useless. They could have mounted a combined huge sacrificial distraction taking on all the White Walkers and opening up the opportunity for a super-stealth character like her, and leaving a body count of most of the hero characters left who aren't crucial for the post NK endgame. That would have been very satisfying for me.

And the thing I don't like about how dragonglass affects White Walkers and the Night King is that it's not just that they're vulnerable to it, they get one-shotted by it and in anyone's hands. I didn't like it when Sam killed the Walkers that way either. I like them being vulnerable to it in the way that a regular hero character is vulnerable to a regular blade (ie often capable of surviving a single stab wound) - not an insta-kill.

I wouldn't assume everyone's complaints are sudden unless you can recall their views at the time we were first faced with this issue.

 

[Motown Marvel]

I've got no problem with Arya getting the kill, I quite like that side of it. I just wish it wasn't her alone with everyone else pretty much useless. They could have mounted a combined huge sacrificial distraction taking on all the White Walkers and opening up the opportunity for a super-stealth character like her, and leaving a body count of most of the hero characters left who aren't crucial for the post NK endgame. That would have been very satisfying for me.

And the thing I don't like about how dragonglass affects White Walkers and the Night King is that it's not just that they're vulnerable to it, they get one-shotted by it and in anyone's hands. I didn't like it when Sam killed the Walkers that way either. I like them being vulnerable to it in the way that a regular hero character is vulnerable to a regular blade (ie often capable of surviving a single stab wound) - not an insta-kill.

I wouldn't assume everyone's complaints are sudden unless you can recall their views at the time we were first faced with this issue.

I also enjoyed Arya getting the kill, but everything in the episode leading up to that moment should have been handled so much better. This battle was culmination of Jon's entire character arc and they gave him nothing to do! At the very least he and the Night King should have crossed swords for a fight prior to the Night King making his way into the Godswood where he gets smoked by Arya. I didn't require Jon getting the kill, but Jon did deserve more.

But my point is, I've never heard anyone complain about dragon glass or Valyrian swords killing White Walkers so easily. It's been known since Sam killed the White Walker five seasons ago this was how the Night King would almost certainly be killed. And now that it has actually happened I'm seeing so many people complain about it when it's previously never been a problem.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Anyone one got a proper link to the spoilers? I can't really find them whole. Just in pieces, that have me really confused.

 

[Marvolo]

The fandom right now:

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

I don't mind Arya getting the kill and I agree with this post which I just read in the ratings thread at Westeros:

"Remember that Martin deliberately set out to smash the tired old tropes of high fantasy that were (and still are) being mindlessly repeated in an endless number of boring, predictable novels. We’ve seen this ever since Ned lost his head, and all the rest.

You can be sure that in Martin’s head it was always going to the dark sister who would unexpectedly pull a Howland Reed move at the end to defeat an undefeatable opponent. That’s why this was shown to Bran seasons ago now. Even Melisandre knew it.

Only Jon and Dany, the storybook “heroes”, didn’t know it. Which is just fine.

If you really think this isn’t what Martin has always planned, then you must not know his wife’s views on Arya. "
-----------------------------------------------------------

Okay but did she have to hog ALL of the damned glory?

Jon was thwarted and denied his fair share three times:

1) His diving attack against the Walkers on horseback was foiled by their storm.
2) The Night King raised the recently fallen in a ring around Jon.
3) Viserion was inconveniently placed between Jon and the Godswood and they decided that Jon couldn't and wouldn't manage that threat.

At the very least Jon should have slain the Viserion wight, but instead they had him stand up in frustration and surrender to be bitten in half or incinerated just before Arya annihilated the dead:

^This is just plain awful!

They could have had Viserion move his lurching, probing head over the wall where Jon was hiding so that Jon could thrust his sword up into Viserion's neck! Much like the slaying of Glaurung, father of dragons, in Tolkien's Silmarillion by the hero Turin who hid in a narrow ravine and waited til the beast slithered above him like so:

I guess they just deemed such a move to be too "tropey. " Yet, sometimes I think that's exactly what's called for --scenes as awesome as Jon's first duel with a White Walker at Hardhome!

They had numerous opportunities to make more cool scenes like this to thrill and satisfy us and opted for none.

I wouldn't have even minded if Jon was the one who directed dragon fire on the Night King, giving Rhaegal the "dracarys" audible (which would have been cool), because even though it would ultimately prove ineffective, at least it would have been... 'something' from him. SMH

 

[TheVileOne]

Why did a little rock stump block Viserion's fire?

 

[blackdragon6]

Welp, bad fan fiction it is then lol

 

[Iceman]

I also enjoyed Arya getting the kill, but everything in the episode leading up to that moment should have been handled so much better. This battle was culmination of Jon's entire character arc and they gave him nothing to do! At the very least he and the Night King should have crossed swords for a fight prior to the Night King making his way into the Godswood where he gets smoked by Arya. I didn't require Jon getting the kill, but Jon did deserve more.

But my point is, I've never heard anyone complain about dragon glass or Valyrian swords killing White Walkers so easily. It's been known since Sam killed the White Walker five seasons ago this was how the Night King would almost certainly be killed. And now that it has actually happened I'm seeing so many people complain about it when it's previously never been a problem.

While I was fine with Arya getting the kill on the Night King and just wanted a larger contribution and supporting sacrifice from the other hero characters, Jon certainly needed more this episode.

I never liked the White Walkers going out like chumps to Sam after even regular wights are supposed to instil so much fear. That seemed like the kind of cheesy shortcut that other fantasy writers would take. Maybe others didn't make a big fuss about it at the time because it was just a couple of random Walkers that Sam killed and they were hoping that wouldn't be extended to the final showdown. But for me it had already drastically reduced the effectiveness of the White Walker mythology and I'm surprised even the Night King was just as much a chump. Being invulnerable to something as rare as dragonfire is a strange buff to have when the NK himself would have nightmares about being chased by a bunch of villagers armed with dragon glass Valyrian weapons. In the same way that our hero characters seem to be useless against the sheer numbers of otherwise weak wights, the Night King seems vulnerable to being charged by high numbers of correctly armed humans. Looking back, one of the lesser intimidating big bads of an epic series.

 

[MovieSlave]

The fandom right now:

Pretty much.

They have definitely rushed this season as well as some of the previous one but it's entertaining seeing how many people seem to be triggered. Too lazy to post the triggered meme at the moment.

 

[Motown Marvel]

So....does the Night’s Watch still exist? Or are they released from their oath....making Sam Lord of Horn Hill?

 

[InCali]

I really really really really hope....

Spoiler: Spoiler

The Night King isn't stupid enough to fall into a trap and be speared by Arya's weapon right as he's about to strike Bran down.

That's pretty amazing. Life must suck for you.

 

[MaceB]

Okey doke. I was away for the weekend, but now I've come back and watched this fabled episode that got people so angry. My main take-away... I liked it a heck of a lot more than 803.

Now that they've ruined Jon's storyline, I see 804 the next logical extension, and I didn't mind it as much as a lot of people. There are basically 2 storylines that matter to me now: Jaime and Cersei, and Dany and Cersei. Out of those two, Jaime's story is the most important to me. I can only hope they don't ruin his arc like they did Jon's.

For me, Jaime has always been the sort of secondary or tertiary hero of the show. Jon is the primary hero, in the melodramatic mode. These kinds of heroes are defined by their virtue. Jon didn't have to grow into a hero... he was always a hero, based on his unfailing virtue. The Melodramatic hero is always good, but is challenged by seemingly insurmountable obstacles. In the end, his virtue is recognized, and that's where we get our satisfaction from. You can see that happening now that Jon's arc is over... he's recognized as a man of virtue by his peers, essentially the one thing he always sought as a bastard. Jon is Goku; Jon is Luke Skywalker - always good, never changing.. the symbol of what is good, and what we should look to emulate.

Jaime, however, is a hero in the tragic mode. These heroes undergo internal struggles, in which they overcome their own inner demons. The tragic hero is fundamentally flawed; his or her flaws bring about enormous tragedy, and is their job to rise above those challenges and learn from those flaws. Jaime is Anakin Skywalker; Jaime is Vegeta. As such, his arc is dependent on ridding himself of his major character defect - his reliance on Cersei. If Jaime doesn't kill Cersei, then his arc is essentially ruined. He is not a hero, and all of his character growth means nothing.

I'm confident that Jaime is going to kill Cersei. I think the show writers like Jaime, as apparently they didn't like Jon.

This gets complicated though, because now Jaime's main obstacle and Dany's main obstacle are the same: Cersei. They can't both kill her. To be frank, the one area where I expected the bittersweet ending was in Dany's story, since it's been pretty obvious since season 3 or 4 that she would never sit on the Iron Throne. That wouldn't be a satisfying resolution in my eyes. The only satisfying resolution for Dany is for her to essentially destroy the throne as she initially intended. She won't climb to power, but neither will anyone else. I assume that's where the story is going.

So I guess, Dany's resolution is a political one.. regarding the Iron Throne. Dany is the ultimate hero of the "game of thrones," because she will end that game forever. Jaime's resolution is a personal one... killing Cersei. Jon's resolution is broken. No need to worry about that anymore.


I personally liked a lot of the dialogue and action of this episode. I didn't mind Rhaegal being shot. Yeah.. I know it's logistically stupid, but I was honestly fine with it. It raises the stakes, and moves Dany in the right direction.. I guess.

The trouble I think that a lot of people have right now, is that we were expecting a bittersweet ending, but it's looking more and more like we won't get a satisfying resolution at all, except for Dany. The Iron throne will be gone, but Jon's virtue won't be recognized and Jaime's growth will be denied him. The whole episode had this sinking feeling of, "oh man, none of this is gonna end good." It really feels like there's no way out of this now, except for all of our main characters to get screwed. Which makes the show hard to watch. Yes.. I'm cool with a bittersweet ending, but I do want our heroes to succeed in a way that resolves the storylines. Because if it doesn't... if it truly is D&D's intention to rob us of a satisfying resolution, it's hard not to feel resentful about that. I care about Jon. I care about Jaime. I care about Dany. They don't have to live. They don't have to grow rich and powerful. But I do want them to overcome their main obstacles.

 

[harlequinade]

Daenerys not burning that fleet down was the dumbest thing I've seen in months

 

[TheFuture]

Okey doke. I was away for the weekend, but now I've come back and watched this fabled episode that got people so angry. My main take-away... I liked it a heck of a lot more than 803.

Now that they've ruined Jon's storyline, I see 804 the next logical extension, and I didn't mind it as much as a lot of people. There are basically 2 storylines that matter to me now: Jaime and Cersei, and Dany and Cersei. Out of those two, Jaime's story is the most important to me. I can only hope they don't ruin his arc like they did Jon's.

For me, Jaime has always been the sort of secondary or tertiary hero of the show. Jon is the primary hero, in the melodramatic mode. These kinds of heroes are defined by their virtue. Jon didn't have to grow into a hero... he was always a hero, based on his unfailing virtue. The Melodramatic hero is always good, but is challenged by seemingly insurmountable obstacles. In the end, his virtue is recognized, and that's where we get our satisfaction from. You can see that happening now that Jon's arc is over... he's recognized as a man of virtue by his peers, essentially the one thing he always sought as a bastard. Jon is Goku; Jon is Luke Skywalker - always good, never changing.. the symbol of what is good, and what we should look to emulate.

Jaime, however, is a hero in the tragic mode. These heroes undergo internal struggles, in which they overcome their own inner demons. The tragic hero is fundamentally flawed; his or her flaws bring about enormous tragedy, and is their job to rise above those challenges and learn from those flaws. Jaime is Anakin Skywalker; Jaime is Vegeta. As such, his arc is dependent on ridding himself of his major character defect - his reliance on Cersei. If Jaime doesn't kill Cersei, then his arc is essentially ruined. He is not a hero, and all of his character growth means nothing.

I'm confident that Jaime is going to kill Cersei. I think the show writers like Jaime, as apparently they didn't like Jon.

This gets complicated though, because now Jaime's main obstacle and Dany's main obstacle are the same: Cersei. They can't both kill her. To be frank, the one area where I expected the bittersweet ending was in Dany's story, since it's been pretty obvious since season 3 or 4 that she would never sit on the Iron Throne. That wouldn't be a satisfying resolution in my eyes. The only satisfying resolution for Dany is for her to essentially destroy the throne as she initially intended. She won't climb to power, but neither will anyone else. I assume that's where the story is going.

So I guess, Dany's resolution is a political one.. regarding the Iron Throne. Dany is the ultimate hero of the "game of thrones," because she will end that game forever. Jaime's resolution is a personal one... killing Cersei. Jon's resolution is broken. No need to worry about that anymore.


I personally liked a lot of the dialogue and action of this episode. I didn't mind Rhaegal being shot. Yeah.. I know it's logistically stupid, but I was honestly fine with it. It raises the stakes, and moves Dany in the right direction.. I guess.

The trouble I think that a lot of people have right now, is that we were expecting a bittersweet ending, but it's looking more and more like we won't get a satisfying resolution at all, except for Dany. The Iron throne will be gone, but Jon's virtue won't be recognized and Jaime's growth will be denied him. The whole episode had this sinking feeling of, "oh man, none of this is gonna end good." It really feels like there's no way out of this now, except for all of our main characters to get screwed. Which makes the show hard to watch. Yes.. I'm cool with a bittersweet ending, but I do want our heroes to succeed in a way that resolves the storylines. Because if it doesn't... if it truly is D&D's intention to rob us of a satisfying resolution, it's hard not to feel resentful about that. I care about Jon. I care about Jaime. I care about Dany. They don't have to live. They don't have to grow rich and powerful. But I do want them to overcome their main obstacles.

Jaime might do her in but he'll probably die side by side with her....even if he doesn't necessarily have to. I think his and Jon's story are going to both end in a utterly depressing manner unfortunately.

 

[Deck Rickard]

Why did a little rock stump block Viserion's fire?

“What kind of fire can melt stone?”

“Dragonfire. Except the really strong rocks of Winterfell. Ned Stark knew winter was coming so he invested in industrial strength granite.”

 

[MaceB]

Jaime might do her in but he'll probably die side by side with her....even if he doesn't necessarily have to. I think his and Jon's story are going to both end in a utterly depressing manner unfortunately.

If that happens and Jaime is honest to goodness going back to King's Landing to rejoin Cersei, then his storyline will be made broken and pointless, just like Jon's has.

That'll leave us only with Dany's storyline... in which she most likely dies, while achieving the goal of destroying the throne.

So... 2 broken plots, and one semi successful plot in which the main character dies. Cool.



... I don't think that's the case though. I think Jaime is going to King's Landing and will ultimately kill Cersei.

 

[BatLand]

I think the child complicates things. Even if Jamie is there to take down Cersei, she is with child. I don't think Jaime would kill an unborn child.

 

[MaceB]

No one forced the show runners to write it that way. If they wrote themselves into a corner, that's their fault. Jaime must kill Cersei. If he goes back to her, then all of his character growth has been absolutely worthless.

 

[The Shape]

I think the child complicates things. Even if Jamie is there to take down Cersei, she is with child. I don't think Jaime would kill an unborn child.

Will make more sense if/when it's revealed that Cersei isn't really pregnant.

 

[TheFuture]

It's ridiculous how many people are suddenly complaining about dragon glass and/or Valyrian steel killing the Night King when this has been the known plan ever since Sam killed a White Walker with dragon glass 5 seasons ago. If you wanna have a sore ass over Arya getting the kill, fine; but the dragon glass isn't really something you can complain about at this point.

I don't mind Arya defeated him but I do mind that they couldn't distinguish between the Night King and his Generals. Given the amount of powers the NK has, from element manipulation to raising the dead, you would think that it would take more to kill him. This guy was the big bad but they *****ed him out for Arya getting a cool moment....just like they *****ed Rhaegal out for a cool moment for Euron. All for the GOTCHA bull****.

 

[warhorse78]

If that happens and Jaime is honest to goodness going back to King's Landing to rejoin Cersei, then his storyline will be made broken and pointless, just like Jon's has.

That'll leave us only with Dany's storyline... in which she most likely dies, while achieving the goal of destroying the throne.

So... 2 broken plots, and one semi successful plot in which the main character dies. Cool.



... I don't think that's the case though. I think Jaime is going to King's Landing and will ultimately kill Cersei.

To be honest, I don't know if Jaime is truly consideredl redeemed. Sure, he came to help fight for Winterfel, but don't forget his last battle before he took on Highgarden was him sacking Riverrun and killing the Stark kid's uncle. Even Arya seen him and Bronn at the Freys, and you can bet your bottom dollar if he and Bronn didn't leave when they did, they too would have been dead from poison. I too do think he's going to King's Landing to kill Cersei, but I think it's more the fact she attacked a fleet that had his beloved brother, Tyrion on it. Even then, the way this show is being set up, I am now predicting it's Arya that kills Cersei with Jaime's face. I also won't be surprised if during the Clegane Bowl, Hound is nearly killed when Greyworm comes in to save the day and take out the Mountain.

 

[warhorse78]

I don't mind Arya defeated him but I do mind that they couldn't distinguish between the Night King and his Generals. Given the amount of powers the NK has, from element manipulation to raising the dead, you would think that it would take more to kill him. This guy was the big bad but they *****ed him out for Arya getting a cool moment....just like they *****ed Rhaegal out for a cool moment for Euron. All for the GOTCHA bull****.

People think that was cool? I thought it was so sad. I know it's Dany's dragon, but I felt it was also Jon's. I was also hoping a cool scene of Arya living one of her favorite stories where she rides alongside Jon on one of the dragons during the big battle. Screw this show, they could have done so much if they weren't hell bent on just being cruel and violent for the sake of it.

 

[MaceB]

I also won't be surprised if during the Clegane Bowl, Hound is nearly killed when Greyworm comes in to save the day and take out the Mountain.

That does seem to be where they're going. They seem hellbent on denying fans any of the promises that they themselves made. It's not like anyone forced D&D to make Clegane tell the Mountain that he's coming for him in Season 7. And then some folks are like, "psh... you know that GOT is known for surprises!" Like, seriously... why am I watching then? I get no satisfaction out of Greyworm killing the Mountain. I hope it'll be a good fight, but dude... am I supposed to be happy that something I've hoped for, for years isn't going to happen?