Superman & Lois Original Discussion Thread

[flickchick85]

It is absolutely a case of bias. You were NOT open to the show. Before it was announced, you literally said you actively didn't want it to happen and that this version of Supes was not show-worthy. But that's ok. We all have biases. Including that person whose review you posted, who is mad at Lana Lang's mere presence in this show. How DARE they include a classic character in Superman's stories! Gosh, can't imagine where that person's fandom came from where they'd hate Lana Lang.

 

[misslane38]

It is absolutely a case of bias. You were NOT open to the show. Before it was announced, you literally said you actively didn't want it to happen and that this version of Supes was not show-worthy. But that's ok. We all have biases. Including that person whose review you posted, who is mad at Lana Lang's mere existence in this show. How DARE they include a classic character in Superman's stories! Gosh, can't imagine where that person's fandom came from.

NEWSFLASH: You're biased too! Biased to embrace it. You say so yourself: we all have biases. Embrace yours and spare me your judgment. These women have a history of seeing how triangles, exes, and Lana have been handled in comics and on CW shows. It's never good. It's not good here. I would link to at least 3 other fans who hate the DCEU and were ready to support this show only to get more and more deflated as details leaked. It is flawed. Clark's characterization as a husband and father is the most problematic. Lois may have her name in the title, but she's not an equal player here. It has issues.

 

[flickchick85]

Guess you missed to the part where I said we all have biases. Or at least missed the point of it. Of course I have bias. I like Tyler's version of Superman and thought he was show-worthy. So I wanted his characterization on Supergirl honored and expanded, and I'm happy that it is here, with new, added dimensions. And I was also on record being wary of this premise when it leaked, but the pilot turned out far, FAR better than I'd even hoped.

It seems the difference between us is I have no problem acknowledging my biases, which has always seemed an issue for you on this site. The manner in which you state your opinions comes across like you believe they are the authority or final word on something, which is why you end up getting into it with so many people here. You and your friends have no more insight on the CW or love triangles or Superman or anything else than any of the rest of us. Just be more accepting of the notion that other opinions are just as valid as yours and all will be gravy.

Also, newsflash: every show is flawed. I already mentioned something in this script I considered a flaw. That does not make it bad. It is the opinion of you and your Twitter circle it is bad. It is the opinion of me and the others here who read it, as well as those on Spotted Ratings and that review posted above, that it is good. Different strokes.

 

[herolee10]

I'm curious if this show will have to create new villains from scratch for Superman to face seeing as how so many of his rogues have been converted to Supergirl's rogue gallery (with Lex Luther being the latest acquisition).

 

[misslane38]

Guess you missed to the part where I said we all have biases. Of course I have bias. I like Tyler's version of Superman and thought he was show-worthy. So I wanted his characterization on Supergirl honored and expanded, and I'm happy that it is here, with new, added dimensions. And I was also on record being wary of this premise when it leaked, but the pilot turned out far, FAR better than I'd even hoped.

It seems the difference between us is I have no problem acknowledging my biases, which has always seemed an issue for you on this site. The manner in which you state your opinions comes across like you believe they are the authority or final word on something, which is why you end up getting into it with so many people here. You and your friends have no more insight on the CW or love triangles or Superman or anything else than any of the rest of us. Just be more accepting of the notion that other opinions are just as valid as yours and all will be gravy.

I noted your line about biases, and I was open to the show as a Superman and Lois fan. I want to see them more. When I expressed concerns earlier, it was because I didn't see how it could work without things like supporting cast used up by SUPERGIRL. When Crisis happened, and I heard a non-SG showrunner was attached, I was more optimistic. Then the leaks started. I cited my other friends' reactions, and linked to one example, to illustrate that one could be even more open than me, maybe even you, and still be gutted by the pilot's shortcomings. This isn't an issue of bias, which we both agree exists on all sides. This is just a difference of opinion. Maybe you disagree with LaT's assessment, that's fine. I encourage people to at least consider concerns thoughtfully before being so dismissive.

 

[flickchick85]

I'm curious if this show will have to create new villains from scratch for Superman to face seeing as how so many of his rogues have been converted to Supergirl's rogue gallery (with Lex Luther being the latest acquisition).

Spoiler

Lex Luthor is in the pilot here. So I guess he's not a permanent "acquisition." Also, there's emphasis on Crisis changing things, so they can pretty much use whomever they want, regardless of their pre-Crisis history on Supergirl.

 

[flickchick85]

I noted your line about biases, and I was open to the show as a Superman and Lois fan. I want to see them more. When I expressed concerns earlier, it was because I didn't see how it could work without things like supporting cast used up by SUPERGIRL. When Crisis happened, and I heard a non-SG showrunner was attached, I was more optimistic. Then the leaks started. I cited my other friends' reactions, and linked to one example, to illustrate that one could be even more open than me, maybe even you, and still be gutted by the pilot's shortcomings. This isn't an issue of bias, which we both agree exists on all sides. This is just a difference of opinion. Maybe you disagree with LaT's assessment, that's fine. I encourage people to at least consider concerns thoughtfully before being so dismissive.

I did, thanks. I read that whole review you posted and disagree on just about every single point. So agree to disagree.

 

[misslane38]

I did, thanks. I read that whole review you posted and disagree on just about every single point. So agree to disagree.

Cool. This is what I said about the show a month before it was announced. I also run the fyeahsupermanandloislane tumblr where I've promoted the show. I want it to succeed for Clois and because I genuinely love the Superman mythos. I don't think it's fair to characterize my feelings as dead set against the show or to assume that my feelings didn't change. I even shared others' opinions (Tyler's and his Superman's biggest fan btw), to dispel the notion of bias. I appreciate you disagree with her, but I think she made good points. On Twitter she has at least 4 others sharing her sentiments. I think people should be prepared for some to be upset. We can agree to disagree on this now, though.

 

[flickchick85]

Cool. This is what I said about the show a month before it was announced. I don't think it's fair to characterize my feelings as dead set against the show or to assume that my feelings didn't change. I even shared others' opinions (Tyler's and his Superman's biggest fan btw), to dispel the notion of bias. I appreciate you disagree with her, but I think she made good points. On Twitter she has at least 4 others sharing her sentiments. I think people should be prepared for some to be upset. We can agree to disagree on this now, though.

People are always gonna be upset. Because different people want different things from Superman. That much has been made CRYSTAL clear by the Snyder era. So some upset fans are not a concern at this point, it's an inevitability. But posting your friends' opinions does not "dispel the notion of bias." It's an echo chamber, just as all fandom factions are. Most of your Twitter crew appear to be Smallville fans and liked that take. You yourself like the DCEU. Great. I hated both of those things and think they were "fundamentally flawed" takes on the characters, as you put it. Different strokes. But obviously there are also people reading this pilot (even some who AREN'T "Tyler's biggest fans" so to speak) who are digging it, too.

Also, you skipped this one...

I'd rather not have any more of Hoechlin's Superman unless it's a prequel series or something. There's so much of his character's backstory that is all tell and no show that I just can't seem to care about him. And as much as I'd love to finally see a Superman story explore Clark as a father and husband, I don't think that's something that the DCTV formula can really execute well.

Can't imagine where I got the idea that you were against this show's existence.

 

[Sithborg]

Some of the stuff in this pilot deserves a bigger budget than the CW can give them, so yeah, I hope they can find a great director who can make the most of what they've got.

The script definitely works for me, though! Really enjoyed it. This is SO the Superman I want to see. The only thing "CW" about it are the few scenes with just the teens, and I could imagine their drama grating on me throughout the show, but the family stuff is A+, imo. It's the same with Black LIghtning for me, so I certainly get the comparisons. Thankfully though, there's some great Superman content to balance it out.

Okay, good. I was getting confused as to how the comparison to Black Lightning was working out. Because, uhh, the pilot of Black Lightning alone goes to places where Superman really can't.

 

[flickchick85]

Okay, good. I was getting confused as to how the comparison to Black Lightning was working out. Because, uhh, the pilot of Black Lightning alone goes to places where Superman really can't.

Yeah this doesn't have BL's social commentary or anything like that. Those who hate SG's overt politics will be glad to know this script is devoid of that except for one scene where Clark and Lois briefly clash with a "small town conservative" Smallville resident. The BL comparison is purely in the family dynamics. But also in the way they don't have the typical CW superhero formula - there's no comic-relief geek friend or "Team Superman" beyond their family.

 

[vantheman77]

I’m glad Superman and Lois went to series order. After reading the pilot story, now we can see why CW approved it.

I’m glad that the Crisis will be addressed in this. I wonder if Kingdom Come Superman will appear down the line (the one with the black background before the Crisis changes).

 

[herolee10]

Spoiler

Lex Luthor is in the pilot here. So I guess he's not a permanent "acquisition." Also, there's emphasis on Crisis changing things, so they can pretty much use whomever they want, regardless of their pre-Crisis history on Supergirl.

Where are you reading this info from? Unless the entire script for the pilot leaked elsewhere. In any case, thanks for the update.

I'm hoping the rumors that I've heard about a love triangle involving Superman, Lois, and Lana aren't true either. Seriously, why would the producers think that fans would want to see that again after how much time was invested in that concept back in "Smallville"?

 

[flickchick85]

Where are you reading this info from? Unless the entire script for the pilot leaked elsewhere. In any case, thanks for the update.

I'm hoping the rumors that I've heard about a love triangle involving Superman, Lois, and Lana aren't true either. Seriously, why would the producers think that fans would want to see that again after how much time was invested in that concept back in "Smallville"?

The script leaked. I and others in this thread have read it. It gives no indication of a love triangle in the pilot, imo, but it's the CW, so I'm sure it's a possibility somewhere down the line. Hopefully Helbing & Co. think better of it, though, or at least have it be one-sided on Lana's part. They've got enough to work with here in the drama department without resorting to that.

 

[SupermanFan]

I’m glad Superman and Lois went to series order. After reading the pilot story, now we can see why CW approved it.

I got about 3 pages into the script and thought I can see exactly why they gave this an early green light.

I’m glad that the Crisis will be addressed in this. I wonder if Kingdom Come Superman will appear down the line (the one with the black background before the Crisis changes).

Never say never but I doubt it will happen. Also I think the one with the black emblem actually no longer exists as we saw he had the red & yellow emblem at the end of Crisis.

 

[vantheman77]

When Kingdom Come Superman had the red and yellow emblem, it's actually the symbol of the Superman clone descendant named Superman Secundus.

Diggle and Lyla must appear at some point in Superman and Lois' first season.

They'll likely use the Kent Farm from Smallville and Elseworlds for the Smallville scenes.

 

[SupermanFan]

When Kingdom Come Superman had the red and yellow emblem, it's actually the symbol of the Superman clone descendant named Superman Secundus.

Diggle and Lyla must appear at some point in Superman and Lois' first season.

They'll likely use the Kent Farm from Smallville and Elseworlds for the Smallville scenes.

Is that a real thing? Lol

Yeah I think they will for sure.

Oh yeah I’ll be surprised if they don’t unless they couldn’t get it on a permanent basis.

 

[Wheels]

I'm too into Superman not to watch this. Plus, the fact you guys like what you read makes me at ease.

 

[vantheman77]

Is that a real thing? Lol

Yeah I think they will for sure.

Oh yeah I’ll be surprised if they don’t unless they couldn’t get it on a permanent basis.

Here you go:


Superman Secundus

 

[Fran-el]

When I think about the script I like the most, I was personally small in Lois and Clark, a teenager in Smallville and now seeing this new stage of Superman excites me a lot. The best thing is that he has everything, a classic Superman in attitude, rescuing, Super fights ... For the youngest there is the plot of the children, Lois research ... I wrap up with family problems, I think it's a very well written script where he manages to have the spirit of Superman in a new stage and get excited.

 

[misslane38]

I like the script for the most part, but I have two major concerns. First, it is clear that the title of the show is misleading: Superman and Lois is very much a show in which Superman, and Superman alone, is the protagonist.

Spoiler

Clark has more interactions with Lois's father, General Lane, in the pilot than his own daughter! Lois also doesn't seem to a central figure in her son's lives. Neither one is portrayed as having any qualities or interests aligned with hers. The creators of this show only seem to be interested in how Jon and Jordan relate to their father. There's also this line in the script directions: "Lois clearly doesn't agree -- but drops it." Even though Lois has been the parent who has been Jordan's primary support system, her opinions about how to raise their children are treated dismissively.

Second, I don't think the pilot portrays Clark as a very good father, and it also seems to ignore obvious aspects of Clark's own backstory.

Spoiler

It makes no sense that Jordan feels neglected by his father or has few interactions with him in which the two could relate to each other. Clark grew up feeling different and often alone. Clark spends half of his life living as a man who most certainly would not be considered someone like Jon (i.e. "privileged from birth"). It is almost a deal-breaker for me that Clark did not tell his children the truth about him, and thus the truth about themselves.

I am not that concerned about Lana as a spoiler in the Clark/Lois marriage, but I do think the set up for her character indicates she will a figure of pity for at least the first season. Her one-sided feelings for Clark and her family problems will undoubtedly make her someone in which both Lois and Clark will invest significant emotional support. I do not see things ending well with her husband.

The small town drama is actually a nice change of pace compared to other Arrowverse shows, but it's not really what I want from a Superman series. I think it is time for a Superman show that is more Lois and Clark than Smallville, particularly if the intention is to give Lois and her role on the show equal weight. I am also concerned about the casting. It doesn't seem like there is a place (yet) for series regulars who are either POC or LGBTQ. The way the Cushing family is written, especially Kyle, the last thing I want is for any of them to be POC or mixed race.

So, unlike a lot of my fandom buddies, I liked a lot of the script and am still optimistic about the show, but I do have some concerns.

 

[SupermanFan]

The Pilot is setting up the show’s arcs, Lois has plenty to do in the pilot and the pilot directly sets up her arc going forward. There will be episodes that are Clark focused, episodes that are Lois focused and episodes that focus more on the boys. That’s what happens when you have an ensemble cast.

 

[misslane38]

The Pilot is setting up the show’s arcs, Lois has plenty to do in the pilot and the pilot directly sets up her arc going forward. There will be episodes that are Clark focused, episodes that are Lois focused and episodes that focus more on the boys. That’s what happens when you have an ensemble cast.

I am not ignoring that Lois has her own arc in the pilot, but it is obvious that she is not getting the same attention as Clark. It's not just about what a character does, it's about the complexity of characterization and how that character's point of view and agency is treated in all aspects of the show. Giving Lois a solid journalism arc is not a panacea for all other forms of rounded characterization.

This isn't about serving the needs of an ensemble cast. All of the Arrowverse shows have ensemble casts, but each of them also has a central protagonist: Oliver Queen, Barry Allen, Kara Danvers, Jefferson Pierce, etc. Superman and Lois was supposed to be special because it has two protagonists -- it is right there in the title! So, when it comes to narrative focus, I expect Clark and Lois to share the spotlight at the top; every other character should get secondary focus.

The pilot is the thesis statement of the show, and if it is, then this pilot is telling me that Lois Lane is not a co-lead, which is distinctly not the impression you get when you watch the pilot of Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman. If Superman and Lois does not balance its titular leads the way Lois and Clark did in the 90s, then I will be extremely disappointed.

 

[SupermanFan]

I am not ignoring that Lois has her own arc in the pilot, but it is obvious that she is not getting the same attention as Clark. It's not just about what a character does, it's about the complexity of characterization and how that character's point of view and agency is treated in all aspects of the show. Giving Lois a solid journalism arc is not a panacea for all other forms of rounded characterization.

This isn't about serving the needs of an ensemble cast. All of the Arrowverse shows have ensemble casts, but each of them also has a central protagonist: Oliver Queen, Barry Allen, Kara Danvers, Jefferson Pierce, etc. Superman and Lois was supposed to be special because it has two protagonists -- it is right there in the title! So, when it comes to narrative focus, I expect Clark and Lois to share the spotlight at the top; every other character should get secondary focus.

The pilot is the thesis statement of the show, and if it is, then this pilot is telling me that Lois Lane is not a co-lead, which is distinctly not the impression you get when you watch the pilot of Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman. If Superman and Lois does not balance its titular leads the way Lois and Clark did in the 90s, then I will be extremely disappointed.

But the writer obviously felt the best way to kick off this particular story was to take the approach he has with the pilot. He has to introduce the concepts and arcs which he does. If they put more focus on Lois in the Pilot then the pilot might not work aswell. Going forward you will get episodes that are more focused on each character. Tbh i personally think Lois had plenty to do here & they’ve set up an interesting solo arc for her going forward.

 

[misslane38]

But the writer obviously felt the best way to kick off this particular story was to take the approach he has with the pilot. He has to introduce the concepts and arcs which he does. If they put more focus on Lois in the Pilot then the pilot might not work aswell. Going forward you will get episodes that are more focused on each character. Tbh i personally think Lois had plenty to do here & they’ve set up an interesting solo arc for her going forward.

I do not expect the series to be much different from the pilot. The only way the show lives up to its stated goal of focusing equally on Superman AND Lois is if it does three things:

1. Explores how Jon and Jordan are like their mother and how they relate to their mother. Establishes how aspects of Lois, including her personality and her nurturing, have shaped her sons.
2. Explores Lois's relationship with her childhood, upbringing, and family. If Clark get Smallville, Lana, and a son dealing with having super powers, then Lois should have arcs relating to her father, sister, and exes/friends.
3. Explores Lois in relation to her profession. Her journalism arc should not solely be used as a plot mechanism (i.e. provide exposition). Lois's efforts should be integral to solving problems; she should have her own antagonists.

Only one of these three things was a priority in the pilot. That concerns me.