The Defenders This show in the larger MCU...

[Infinity9999x]

But she was not super soldier level even then.

She was definitely super-powered. Wether she was as strong as Cap is...not really sure. The problem Defenders fell into...and to an extent any Super-powered shows that also feature normal people fighting, is it's hard at times to figure out exactly what the power level is. Electra is shown to be able to ward off Luke Cage and hit him hard enough to throw him backwards, but doesn't instantly kill Daredevil or Danny with a blow.

Just as Cap is shown to be able to hold a friggin Helicopter down, but has a solid fight with the mercenary in the beginning of Winter Soldier. Where, logically, if Cap is that strong, he should be able to incapacitate a normal human with one hit. He would most likely have to actively try to not kill the person with a hit.

The power levels are routinely very inconsistent.

Regardless, Electra seems able to match Cage, and he's probably close to Cap's level. I would imagine the only reason we haven't seen him perform a feat that's on the same level is simply due to budget.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

Luke Cage is waaaaaaaaaay beyond Cap's level. He was knocking people out by flicking them with his index finger. According to IGN he's as strong as Loki

 

[Infinity9999x]

I honestly don't think this show/universe is canon

Unfortunately, as much as I wish the TV shows would cross over with the films, Feige has made it pretty clear they won't. And that's a bummer.

Now, his statements about that seemed to be more directed at AOS...but I do hope he reconsiders down the line with the Netflix stuff. It's just such high quality (not counting Iron Fist), and I do wish it felt a bit more connected in some way.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Luke Cage is waaaaaaaaaay beyond Cap's level. He was knocking people out by flicking them with his index finger. According to IGN he's as strong as Loki

Luke has been shown to do nothing around Cap's level yet. And IGN is meaningless. They're guessing at things just like we are. I take what's shown in the show at face value.

So far, Cage hasn't performed one feat that's equivalent to Cap holding down a helicopter. Again, I do believe a lot of that has to do with budget, but until we see something similar, we can't claim he's above Cap. There's no ground to do so.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

Luke has been shown to do nothing around Cap's level yet. And IGN is meaningless. They're guessing at things just like we are. I take what's shown in the show at face value.

So far, Cage hasn't performed one feat that's equivalent to Cap holding down a helicopter. Again, I do believe a lot of that has to do with budget, but until we see something similar, we can't claim he's above Cap. There's no ground to do so.

...I just said Luke knocked people out by flicking them with his finger. Cap hasn't done that. He's bent walls of metal. Cap, while crushing a radio, hasn't done that. And IGN isn't meaningless. They weren't talking out of their ass. I'll post the source when I have a chance right now I'm at work and don't have the time for it unfortunately

Luke >>>>>>>>>> Cap

 

[Infinity9999x]

...I just said Luke knocked people out by flicking them with his finger. Cap hasn't done that. He's bent walls of metal. Cap, while crushing a radio, hasn't done that. And IGN isn't meaningless. They weren't talking out of their ass. I'll post the source when I have a chance right now I'm at work and don't have the time for it unfortunately

Luke >>>>>>>>>> Cap

Cap kicked a guy so hard he flew 20 feet and ricocheted over the side of a boat.

And IGN, or any website, means jack if it's not shown in the show.

Cap has held down a Helicopter. According to estimates, that machine has three thousand pounds of lift force. He's overpowering three thousand pounds of lift force with his upper body.

Luke has done absolutely nothing that compares to this. Nothing. He may be intended to be stronger than Cap, but so far he hasn't been shown to be. That's just the facts man. No getting around it as of now.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Ultimately what you are saying is true - but, being that that is the case for this film I still say it is grounds for criticism. Regardless of how they're "built", Civil War literally is an ensemble film with the massive cast it's got. The fact that some characters are "just sort of there" - is not a good thing. The fact that Civil War has been dumbed down to a Captain America film, is not a good thing. The way I see it is Disney exploiting Captain America's 3rd film slot as a massive crossover story instead of one that's more personal for Cap (not saying it wasn't a personal story and journey for him but to me it was equally so for Iron Man) And even with these things said - since I do partially agree with you - like I said earlier a vast amount of the audience probably still have perceived it as an Avengers film.


Right but just like I said earlier, depending on perspective both Cap and Iron Man could be seen both each as an antagonist. I don't care if Captain America is the title of the film; the promo intentionally wanted to divide the audience and it worked.

Again, I don't care what people say it was, that doesn't change what it IS. We're kind of going in circles here, so this is going to be my final reply and I am addressing these points as one whole because it comes down to we're having 2 different discussions. You're arguing about things like who is right and who is wrong and how the film speaks to people. I'm talking about the nuts and bolts of the film, it's narrative structure. The fact you can see Iron Man as right and Cap wrong doesn't change the film's narrative structure. Film's don't have an objective narrative structure. When you're crafting a film, you write them with who is the Protagonist and who is the Antagonist. These are defined roles in the narrative structure. The fact Iron Man can be seen as correct doesn't change their roles in the narrative. Every villain in the history of ever was the hero of their own story. I can make this same argument that Thanos is the hero of Infinity War if I wanted to, but that doesn't change the fact he is the Antagonist. In general, there are different types of Antagonist, but if this helps you understand what I am saying, here is a section on one of the 15 different Antagonist types Iron Man falls under:

The Authority Figure
Examples:

Principal Rooney — Ferris Bueller’s Day Off

Bill Lumbergh — Office Space

Gny. Sgt. Hartman — Full Metal Jacket

The Authority Figure is often an example of how “evil” is defined in terms of context. These three characters above are perfect examples. The Authority Figure represents opposition to a character’s free will. This type of character excels in a wide variety of genres, but often are more prevalent in comedies and dramas. Audiences always identify with opposition to authority. In films like the above, it’s easy to see that the protagonists look upon these characters as “evil” despite the fact that in the end, for the most part, they are just doing their jobs. That’s not to say that they are doing them right or well, but their intentions are to run a school, run an office, create soldiers ready for war, etc.

Iron Man is the face of the UN that is forcing the Avengers to no longer act on their own free will. He is not evil in this case. He just wants to enforce this new law so people will like superheroes again (much like Principal Rooney for example is just trying to make sure Ferris goes to school and graduates...another example of someone not evil, even if he takes the situation too far). But never the less, he is still an authority figure trying to limit Captain America's freedom (in this case, be a superhero on his own terms).

Marketing and perception of correctness don't change story structure. That is my point.

It definitely overall doesnt matter to anything

The shows don't, but as I continue to say, when did The Punisher's solo outings ever matter in an Avengers book? Rarely. So the two having seperation doesn't bother me. It's still same universe.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Unfortunately, as much as I wish the TV shows would cross over with the films, Feige has made it pretty clear they won't. And that's a bummer.

Now, his statements about that seemed to be more directed at AOS...but I do hope he reconsiders down the line with the Netflix stuff. It's just such high quality (not counting Iron Fist), and I do wish it felt a bit more connected in some way.

The Russos themselves say them and the writers considered putting them in IW, but ultimately they didn't because there was just no room.

 

[Infinity9999x]

The shows don't, but as I continue to say, when did The Punisher's solo outings ever matter in an Avengers book? Rarely. So the two having seperation doesn't bother me. It's still same universe.

I mean, it's kind of a bummer to me that we'll never see Kingpin interact with Spider-man, or Spidey interact with any of the Defenders. He fits in the with the street level crowd, and his more straight laced approach to things would be a good foil for characters like Daredevil to bounce off of.

Still, as long as the shows continue to be as quality as they are, I won't stop watching them, but it is a bummer.

 

[Infinity9999x]

The Russos themselves say them and the writers considered putting them in IW, but ultimately they didn't because there was just no room.

That makes me feel a lot better. I hope down the line we see at least some references. Especially with the Spider-man stuff as I said above.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I mean, it's kind of a bummer to me that we'll never see Kingpin interact with Spider-man, or Spidey interact with any of the Defenders. He fits in the with the street level crowd, and his more straight laced approach to things would be a good foil for characters like Daredevil to bounce off of.

Still, as long as the shows continue to be as quality as they are, I won't stop watching them, but it is a bummer.

Spider-Man is one of the ones that makes the most sense to crossover with the street level guys. Even if he has flirted with the Avengers and is largely more powerful, he still is a friendly neighborhood Spider-Man fighting a lot of the same guy Daredevil would. Granted, a fist fight with Fisk wouldn't work in the MCU with Spidey (Fisk had basically super strength in the comics...not near that level here). But if there was a crossover I'd want to see in the MCU TV & film division, it would be Spidey with a DD or Iron Fist or something.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Spider-Man is one of the ones that makes the most sense to crossover with the street level guys. Even if he has flirted with the Avengers and is largely more powerful, he still is a friendly neighborhood Spider-Man fighting a lot of the same guy Daredevil would. Granted, a fist fight with Fisk wouldn't work in the MCU with Spidey (Fisk had basically super strength in the comics...not near that level here). But if there was a crossover I'd want to see in the MCU TV & film division, it would be Spidey with a DD or Iron Fist or something.

Agreed. And honestly, the physical confrontations between Fisk and Spider-man always seemed goofy to me anyway. As I stated above, it's another example that comics do of blurring that line with super-strength. But fact of the matter is, if Spidey can catch an SUV hurling through the air at 30mph, he could knock Fisk out with one punch.

Still, Fisk doesn't have to be a physical threat. One thing I loved about the USM comics is that they showed how Fisk could be a thorn to Spidey without having it get physical. It still did eventually, but he was shown to be very dangerous simply through his organization and connections and what he was willing to do to stay in power. That would be fun to watch. Make Pete outsmart Fisk instead of beating him up.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

Cap kicked a guy so hard he flew 20 feet and ricocheted over the side of a boat.

Yeah and Luke flicked a guy with his index finger, and knocked him out.

And IGN, or any website, means jack if it's not shown in the show.

Says who? It's not Luke's fault he never had the chance to square with Loki in Harlem.

https://youtu.be/MpaAhbyHgAI?t=10m12s

his source is the "Marvel Superhero Strength Scale" - so think twice before you dismiss a source just because you disagree with it

Cap has held down a Helicopter. According to estimates, that machine has three thousand pounds of lift force. He's overpowering three thousand pounds of lift force with his upper body.

Luke has done absolutely nothing that compares to this. Nothing. He may be intended to be stronger than Cap, but so far he hasn't been shown to be. That's just the facts man. No getting around it as of now.

Wasn't it you yourself in this thread who said that Cap's actual strength has been very inconsistent in the MCU? Luke Cage is a lower budget than any Cap film; it's not his fault that in his own stories he hasn't had the chance to pull off stunts as crazy as Cap

Again, I don't care what people say it was,

Well, I do. And I guess, like Jay Z says, that's where we differ.

that doesn't change what it IS.

I've already conceded that in the end what you're saying about the movie is most accurate, but the way the movie was promoted in the minds of the audience - and rightfully so - contradicts it as a Cap-centric movie to an extent.

We're kind of going in circles here, so this is going to be my final reply and I am addressing these points as one whole because it comes down to we're having 2 different discussions. You're arguing about things like who is right and who is wrong and how the film speaks to people. I'm talking about the nuts and bolts of the film, it's narrative structure. The fact you can see Iron Man as right and Cap wrong doesn't change the film's narrative structure. Film's don't have an objective narrative structure. When you're crafting a film, you write them with who is the Protagonist and who is the Antagonist. These are defined roles in the narrative structure. The fact Iron Man can be seen as correct doesn't change their roles in the narrative. Every villain in the history of ever was the hero of their own story. I can make this same argument that Thanos is the hero of Infinity War if I wanted to, but that doesn't change the fact he is the Antagonist. In general, there are different types of Antagonist, but if this helps you understand what I am saying, here is a section on one of the 15 different Antagonist types Iron Man falls under:



Iron Man is the face of the UN that is forcing the Avengers to no longer act on their own free will. He is not evil in this case. He just wants to enforce this new law so people will like superheroes again (much like Principal Rooney for example is just trying to make sure Ferris goes to school and graduates...another example of someone not evil, even if he takes the situation too far). But never the less, he is still an authority figure trying to limit Captain America's freedom (in this case, be a superhero on his own terms).

I'm not really arguing about the film's narrative structure other than the fact that I do believe this is a very personal story for Iron Man and not just Cap. So much so that with a little more exposition, this film could've alternatively been titled Iron Man: Civil War. If we're to break down the narrative and how it should have been, I don't think it should have been a Captain America movie because it's a massive crossover story involving two teams led by him and Iron Man; that much is consistent with the comics and in the comics this was more of an Avengers-type story than a Cap-story, if I'm not mistaken and for that reason, not only is it a disservice to water down the adaptation to being a Cap story but also just a disappointment that they decided to do the Civil War story so soon, if they had waited and made it a proper Avengers film, the scale would've been so much bigger

Marketing and perception of correctness don't change story structure. That is my point.

It does for the people watching the movie, that's my point. And who are we to say how someone should perceive/interpret a movie if they're enjoying the show as much as we are?

 

[Infinity9999x]

Yeah and Luke flicked a guy with his index finger, and knocked him out.

Says who? It's not Luke's fault he never had the chance to square with Loki in Harlem.

https://youtu.be/MpaAhbyHgAI?t=10m12s

his source is the "Marvel Superhero Strength Scale" - so think twice before you dismiss a source just because you disagree with it


Wasn't it you yourself in this thread who said that Cap's actual strength has been very inconsistent in the MCU? Luke Cage is a lower budget than any Cap film; it's not his fault that in his own stories he hasn't had the chance to pull off stunts as crazy as Cap

The website means exactly nothing to me man. Sorry, if it's not shown in the show, or specifically referenced in the show, then there is no evidence to support it. Plain and simple.

Cap so far has been shown to complete feats of strength beyond anything Luke Cage has. Are the strength displays inconsistent? Yes. They are for Luke Cage too. Similarly, if Luke Cage is strong enough to tear sheets of metal off walls, when he kicks a guy and sends him flying backwards, his kick should probably just punch through the dudes chest.

But at the end of the day we're dealing in fantasy here, and the reason why the strength levels are inconsistent with these characters is because the writers need to create drama. Though if you want a fun breakdown of what super strength would be like if you really had it, check out the Because Science episode about it on Youtube. It's pretty fun.

As for our discussion, Luke could very well be Loki level strong, however, until we are shown that, or it is stated in one of the shows/movies etc, it's not a provable point. Supplemental materials like the website you posted change all the time. It's like taking a novelization of a film as canon, when it often has contradictory events in it, because the novel was based off an older shooting script than what ended up being the actual product.

So Luke may be Loki strong, he may be stronger than Cap, but as of now there's nothing to back that up. End of story.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

The website means exactly nothing to me man. Sorry, if it's not shown in the show, or specifically referenced in the show, then there is no evidence to support it. Plain and simple.

Plain and simple, the source that the website uses is the Marvel Superhero Strength Scale. Whether you choose to ignore it or not, does not change the fact that Luke is as strong as Loki.

Cap so far has been shown to complete feats of strength beyond anything Luke Cage has.

No he hasn't. In Av1, Cap struggled to break open an unlocked door on the helicarrier. Luke could've kicked it down; he did so on a bunch of metal bars blocking his path on his show.

Are the strength displays inconsistent? Yes. They are for Luke Cage too. Similarly, if Luke Cage is strong enough to tear sheets of metal off walls, when he kicks a guy and sends him flying backwards, his kick should probably just punch through the dudes chest.

Well funny you say that because since Luke is a good guy, he's never been compelled to punch an adversary, henchman, or civilian so hard in the chest which could potentially kill him. But Diamondback who was using Hammertech to replicate Luke's strength, did punch a cop in the chest so hard that it killed him, so that's that.

But at the end of the day we're dealing in fantasy here, and the reason why the strength levels are inconsistent with these characters is because the writers need to create drama. Though if you want a fun breakdown of what super strength would be like if you really had it, check out the Because Science episode about it on Youtube. It's pretty fun.

I'll check it out when I have a chance. I think I've stumbled upon the because science channel before.

As for our discussion, Luke could very well be Loki level strong, however, until we are shown that, or it is stated in one of the shows/movies etc, it's not a provable point. Supplemental materials like the website you posted change all the time. It's like taking a novelization of a film as canon, when it often has contradictory events in it, because the novel was based off an older shooting script than what ended up being the actual product.

So Luke may be Loki strong, he may be stronger than Cap, but as of now there's nothing to back that up. End of story.

Me personally, I've seen evidence in the shows and movies respectively that back up the fact that Luke's strength trumps Cap's. But don't forget that the reason we're having this discussion in the first place is to dance around why the Netflix characters haven't appeared in the movies and this goes back to my original point that storytelling wise: there is no logical explanation for it and anyone that tries to justify it is simply coming up with their own fan explanation and excuses when the truth is, it's because of disagreements behind the curtains. This was the reason Spiderman didn't show up in the MCU until phase 3. Not because it didn't make sense for Peter Parker to be in the MCU, but because it took like 7 years for Sony and Disney to work something out. That is the end of the story, my friend

 

[SPO2 Dalisay]

The logical reason is they are stuck in traffic. None of the Defenders have the strategic transportation, no extra S.H.I.E.L.D quinjet, to get to the Avengers in a timely manner

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

The logical reason is they are stuck in traffic. None of the Defenders have the strategic transportation, no extra S.H.I.E.L.D quinjet, to get to the Avengers in a timely manner

Neither did Spiderman. Stark would provide them with whatever transport they need

But if the Infinity War takes the battle to NYC, that's where the Defenders are posted so they wouldn't need to go anywhere but defend the city

 

[SPO2 Dalisay]

Neither did Spiderman. Stark would provide them with whatever transport they need

But if the Infinity War takes the battle to NYC, that's where the Defenders are posted so they wouldn't need to go anywhere but defend the city

You have any ideal how long it takes to move around a city like New York, even when there is not a major battle going on blocking already slow traffic to a snarl? Spider-Man is able to use his webs to sling above little things like a broken down truck on the road. None of the Defenders have that mobility in their power set.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

You have any ideal how long it takes to move around a city like New York,

Yeah I do. I work here and I live in Queens.

even when there is not a major battle going on blocking already slow traffic to a snarl? Spider-Man is able to use his webs to sling above little things like a broken down truck on the road. None of the Defenders have that mobility in their power set.

Well the context of our discussion was Civil War. If Stark recruited the Defenders he would've provided transport to Germany for that airport battle. If we're talking about Infinity War and the battle comes to NY, well...the Netflix characters are already there.

 

[SPO2 Dalisay]

Yeah I do. I work here and I live in Queens.Well the context of our discussion was Civil War. If Stark recruited the Defenders he would've provided transport to Germany for that airport battle. If we're talking about Infinity War and the battle comes to NY, well...the Netflix characters are already there.

He didn't want power, he wanted softness, thus the webbing

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

He didn't want power, he wanted softness, thus the webbing

How do you know exactly what he wanted? Can you read his mind or something?

 

[TheVileOne]

Stark wanted Spider-Man because the writers wanted to bring in Spider-Man to the MCU

Guys, the films aren't acknowledging the shows anymore. They do not matter to the MCU.

 

[SPO2 Dalisay]

How do you know exactly what he wanted? Can you read his mind or something?

I don't know maybe it was Tony Stark focusing on the tensile strength of the webbing while in Peter Parker's room and getting that look when he was webbed to a doorknob. Then the battle plan was to use it to first snatch Captain America's shield with a web and then use a webbing to tie his hands when the offer to surrender was again given. It seemed as if the entire plan was to use as little force as possible and hope Steve Rogers would again do the right thing as he did when confronted by police and War Machine.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Plain and simple, the source that the website uses is the Marvel Superhero Strength Scale. Whether you choose to ignore it or not, does not change the fact that Luke is as strong as Loki.

No he hasn't. In Av1, Cap struggled to break open an unlocked door on the helicarrier. Luke could've kicked it down; he did so on a bunch of metal bars blocking his path on his show. Well funny you say that because since Luke is a good guy, he's never been compelled to punch an adversary, henchman, or civilian so hard in the chest which could potentially kill him. But Diamondback who was using Hammertech to replicate Luke's strength, did punch a cop in the chest so hard that it killed him, so that's that.

I'll check it out when I have a chance. I think I've stumbled upon the because science channel before.

Me personally, I've seen evidence in the shows and movies respectively that back up the fact that Luke's strength trumps Cap's. But don't forget that the reason we're having this discussion in the first place is to dance around why the Netflix characters haven't appeared in the movies and this goes back to my original point that storytelling wise: there is no logical explanation for it and anyone that tries to justify it is simply coming up with their own fan explanation and excuses when the truth is, it's because of disagreements behind the curtains. This was the reason Spiderman didn't show up in the MCU until phase 3. Not because it didn't make sense for Peter Parker to be in the MCU, but because it took like 7 years for Sony and Disney to work something out. That is the end of the story, my friend

Again, the marvel comics website is supplemental material that is changed constantly, it means nothing if it’s not referenced in the show itself.

Cap has pulled down over 3000 pounds of force with his upper body, that trumps anything Luke has done. No argument to be had, that is a simple fact.

And point being, Luke kicking someone so hard it sends them flying, physically should have just punched through their body. The presentation of it defies physics in many ways, but again, that’s just the nature of the medium.

As for the arguments for why certain characters don’t show up in specific shows/movies, I completely agree. It’s just a rights or tv/film division issue. There’s no logical reasoning for it. Even if they made it canon that Luke was less powerful than Cap, he is still an asset the avengers would want. The reason he isn’t there had no logical bearing. It’s just a division issue.

In much the same way that the reason other heroes don’t pop up in other books is because those books aren’t about them. Though I do wish there was more crossover with the Netflix marvel properties and the movies.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

I don't know maybe it was Tony Stark focusing on the tensile strength of the webbing while in Peter Parker's room and getting that look when he was webbed to a doorknob. Then the battle plan was to use it to first snatch Captain America's shield with a web and then use a webbing to tie his hands when the offer to surrender was again given. It seemed as if the entire plan was to use as little force as possible and hope Steve Rogers would again do the right thing as he did when confronted by police and War Machine.

The bolded is all that matters here, the rest is all your speculation. Stark knew they were going in for a fight

Again, the marvel comics website is supplemental material that is changed constantly, it means nothing if it’s not referenced in the show itself.

What do you mean "again"? This is the first time you've tried this rebuttal since every other time all you've said is "ign is crap" - and anyways, I got no reason to believe that the scale on the marvel website isn't overall in line with the MCU, I don't see why it wouldn't be

Cap has pulled down over 3000 pounds of force with his upper body, that trumps anything Luke has done. No argument to be had, that is a simple fact.

And point being, Luke kicking someone so hard it sends them flying, physically should have just punched through their body. The presentation of it defies physics in many ways, but again, that’s just the nature of the medium.

I've already pointed out sections in the media where Luke's strength trumps Cap's, so I'm just gonna have to repeat myself; Cap struggled to break open a locked door on a helicarrier, meanwhile Luke kicked down a set of metal bars blocking his path. Cap can kick a man and send them flying in the air, meanwhile Luke flicks a man and knocks him out cold.

As for the arguments for why certain characters don’t show up in specific shows/movies, I completely agree. It’s just a rights or tv/film division issue. There’s no logical reasoning for it. Even if they made it canon that Luke was less powerful than Cap, he is still an asset the avengers would want. The reason he isn’t there had no logical bearing. It’s just a division issue.

In much the same way that the reason other heroes don’t pop up in other books is because those books aren’t about them. Though I do wish there was more crossover with the Netflix marvel properties and the movies.

This is all it comes down to man. There's nothing else to be said here and I'm glad we can at least agree on this.