Season 6 Episode 2 Discussion "Home"

[Drizzle]

Ramsay is ending up like Joffrey. He's making enemies of basically the entire kingdom, other than Dorne. I can't see him lasting past the end of the season at this rate.

What has he done to piss off the Lannisters and Tyrells?

 

[Warhammer]

Damn man, I was legitimately upset that Roose died. Now nobody can casual throw shade at Ramsay anymore.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

I was wondering the same thing. Especially in light of Ramsay's talk with Roose about marching on The Wall. Last we heard from Littlefinger, Cersei gave him approval to take the North with the army of the Eyrie. Ramsay and Roose were talking about how depleted their forces are. I thought the show was leading up to us checking back in on what Littlefinger is up to; then nothing.

I am guessing it will tie together at some point though. If Ramsay is intent on taking the Wall, it will only make the North even more susceptible to Littlefinger's attack, especially with Roose's claim that attacking the Wall will turn virtually every house of the North on the Boltons. It could make the North all the more vulnerable to Littlefinger rolling in, deposing the Boltons and declaring his intention to marry Sansa and Robin Arryn. Virtually the entire North but the Karstacks would rally behind him.

I suppose what I am saying is that while is not in the episode, if his intention is still to take the North, the deck is even more in his favor.

I'd be surprised if Baelish doesn't end up taking the North. Everything is working out in his favor.

 

[Warhammer]

I'm betting Littlefinger will show up in in S6E7 in glorious, unsuspected fashion. And I will have the biggest smile on my face.

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

People can argue and still be on the same side...

Also, Davos likely racognises the importance of Jon with respect to the threat of the White Walkers, which Stannis took seriously.

The same side of which conflict? Stannis (and Davos) had a different agenda than Jon after the Wildlings were defeated. Jon was concerned with the growing Army of the Dead, Stannis was concerned with sacking Winterfell on a march South to seize the Iron Throne.

The Red Woman is the one who sensed Jon's importance by virtue of her psychic or mystical gifts. Davos, by contrast, is a more grounded character who doesn't sense or know things like that.

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

Davos revenge against the Boltons, in the wake of Stannis' defeat, being to support Jon in taaking back Winterfell.

Why would he assume that Jon will take back Winterfell? Jon already refused to do that once.

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

But does being resurrected get him out of his Night Watch vows? That was why he turned Stannis down before....

I believe the vows are until death. He died so maybe he's off the hook now.

I think we may see a change in personality too, possibly with different values and priorities that supersede his old role as NW commander.

 

[Da-Scribe]

Why would he assume that Jon will take back Winterfell? Jon already refused to do that once.

Wasn't that due to his vows? Vows which technically don't apply anymore since he died.

 

[Marvolo]

Fans have speculated for a while now that Jon's death would free him from his vows to the Night's Watch.

Behind the scenes photos show John wearing Stark attire in the Battle of the Bastards. Ever since he took his vows he has only worn black except for when he was pretending to be a traitor. So my guess is that his Stark attire is his way of saying that he isnt fighting as a Crow or a Brother of the Night' Watch. He is fighting for Winterfell for the North as a Stark. Whether that indicates he has left the Night's Watch...well, idk, but even if he does leave the Night's Watch I dont think he will ever abandon the defense of the Wall. The defense of the Wall goes beyond Crows at this point. He doesnt havr to be a crow to stay at the Wall and do what's necessary.

 

[Da-Scribe]

Fans have speculated for a while now that Jon's death would free him from his vows to the Night's Watch.

Behind the scenes photos show John wearing Stark attire in the Battle of the Bastards. Ever since he took his vows he has only worn black except for when he was pretending to be a traitor. So my guess is that his Stark attire is his way of saying that he isnt fighting as a Crow or a Brother of the Night' Watch. He is fighting for Winterfell for the North as a Stark. Whether that indicates he has left the Night's Watch...well, idk, but even if he does leave the Night's Watch I dont think he will ever abandon the defense of the Wall. The defense of the Wall goes beyond Crows at this point. He doesnt havr to be a crow to stay at the Wall and do what's necessary.

I wouldn't be surprised if he completely reforms the Night's Watch.

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

Fans have speculated for a while now that Jon's death would free him from his vows to the Night's Watch.

Behind the scenes photos show John wearing Stark attire in the Battle of the Bastards. Ever since he took his vows he has only worn black except for when he was pretending to be a traitor. So my guess is that his Stark attire is his way of saying that he isnt fighting as a Crow or a Brother of the Night' Watch. He is fighting for Winterfell for the North as a Stark. Whether that indicates he has left the Night's Watch...well, idk, but even if he does leave the Night's Watch I dont think he will ever abandon the defense of the Wall. The defense of the Wall goes beyond Crows at this point. He doesnt havr to be a crow to stay at the Wall and do what's necessary.

"Officially" he's Ned's son but not a Stark without a royal decree.

So Mel's foresight will be proven correct!

Do you have a link to those pix?

 

[Marvolo]

I wouldn't be surprised if he completely reforms the Night's Watch.

I wouldnt be surprised either. Its a broken shell and in its current condition its damn near useless.

I dont know if he would, but honestly every major house should be required to send some of their own soldiers to the Wall. Not just rapists murderers and criminals. But actual soldiers from their own armies. Do that and have them rotated out every once in a while and youd have a sizeable capable army thats always refreshing its ranks. And it keeps the Houses and Lords from forgtetting their duty to the Wall.

 

[Marvolo]

"Officially" he's Ned's son but not a Stark without a royal decree.

So Mel's foresight will be proven correct!

Do you have a link to those pix?

His mother is Lyanna. He is a Stark even without a royal decree. Idk how he will prove it or if it even matters if he cant. I dont think the North gives a damn about some royal decree from Tommen. And Stannis is dead so a decree would be meaningless to most of the North. I think as long as he pledges himself a Stark to the North they would except him as a Stark because they believe he is Ned's son and they think he is Ned's last male heir. And Im thinking Sansa might claim him as a Stark too. Since she is pretty much the head of the House if she says he is a Stark then thats probably gonna be good enough for the Lords that are fighting against the Boltons.

 

[MurkeNyou]

Battle of the Bastards, eh? I like the sound of that.

 

[Marvolo]

Battle of the Bastards, eh? I like the sound of that.

Yeah, I forgot I wasnt in the book readers thread. Ill spoiler tag details like that from now on.

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

His mother is [BLACKOUT]Lyanna[/BLACKOUT]. He is a Stark even without a royal decree. Idk how he will prove it or if it even matters if he cant. I dont think the North gives a damn about some royal decree from Tommen. And Stannis is dead so a decree would be meaningless to most of the North. I think as long as he pledges himself a Stark to the North they would except him as a Stark because they believe he is Ned's son and they think he is Ned's last male heir. And Im thinking Sansa might claim him as a Stark too. Since she is pretty much the head of the House if she says he is a Stark then thats probably gonna be good enough for the Lords that are fighting against the Boltons.

That lineage is probable but still as yet unrevealed, and unknown to him and nearly everyone else until a keeper of that secret comes forward. And I think this is a patrilineal society, so he would have his father's last name unless he's a bastard in which case he would still be a Snow.

Brandon is the heir to Winterfell, with Rickon next in line who is being harbored by one of the northern lords. Maybe he'll finally come forth if the Boltons go down. Of course there is the problem of Littlefinger coming up from the Vale soon.

 

[Marvolo]

That lineage is probable but still as yet unrevealed, and unknown to him and nearly everyone else until a keeper of that secret comes forward. And I think this is a patrilineal society, so he would have his father's last name unless he's a bastard in which case he would still be a Snow.

Brandon is the heir to Winterfell, with Rickon next in line who is being harbored by one of the northern lords. Maybe he'll finally come forth if the Boltons go down. Of course there is the problem of Littlefinger coming up from the Vale soon.

Spoiler

Bran is believed dead by most Lords. Him being missing makes him as good as dead to them. Rickon is going to be Ramsay's hostage starting in next week's episode. So I doubt Rickon will be ruling any house unless D&D change their habits and dont kill him off.

While yes Jon would have his Rhaegar's last name, if anyone finds out about his true lineagr, that doesnt change his blood. He is as much a Stark as any of his brothers and sisters. Besides, as you point out the the northern Lords think he is Ned's son and until anyone finds out about his true parents he would be considered a Stark by blood and his last name would be Stark unless they or Sansa decide to fight him on the issue.

For now, Jon and Sansa are the only heirs of Winterfell that can rule or run it. And Im almost positive that Jon and no one else is going to be forcing Sansa to marry ever again if she doeent want to so no man from another house will be taking control of Winterfell anytime soon unless she is ok with it. Its either going to be Jon or Sansa who get Winterfell. Legalities be damned.

 

[Warhammer]

I just want the years long theory of Jon being the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar Targaryen to be true. D&D, give it to me.

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

Spoiler

Bran is believed dead by most Lords. Him being missing makes him as good as dead to them. Rickon is going to be Ramsay's hostage starting in next week's episode. So I doubt Rickon will be ruling any house unless D&D change their habits and dont kill him off.

While yes Jon would have his Rhaegar's last name, if anyone finds out about his true lineagr, that doesnt change his blood. He is as much a Stark as any of his brothers and sisters. Besides, as you point out the the northern Lords think he is Ned's son and until anyone finds out about his true parents he would be considered a Stark by blood and his last name would be Stark unless they or Sansa decide to fight him on the issue.

For now, Jon and Sansa are the only heirs of Winterfell that can rule or run it. And Im almost positive that Jon and no one else is going to be forcing Sansa to marry ever again if she doeent want to so no man from another house will be taking control of Winterfell anytime soon unless she is ok with it. Its either going to be Jon or Sansa who get Winterfell. Legalities be damned.

I wouldn't expect the legalities and the conventions (established by GRRM) of that society to be ignored. Bastards don't get to inherit the last name, titles and lands. They are Snows, and that's why Jon took the Black -he had nothing to gain in merely being Ned's son. [BLACKOUT]And Rhaegar was married to Elia Martell so that makes any of his offspring born out of wedlock illegitimate. [/BLACKOUT]

 

[Drz]

Marvolo, you're forgetting that Jon Snow knows Bran is alive.

Not to mention Jon Snow has never been legitimized, you'd need the King's authority to do that.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Jon is legit, because [BLACKOUT]his parents were married when he was born[/BLACKOUT].

 

[Drz]

in regards to R+L = J, does anyone alive know they we're married?

 

[DarthSkywalker]

If the theory is correct, [BLACKOUT]Howland, Bloodraven and potentially Bran[/BLACKOUT].

 

[Drz]

And remind me again: Lyanna being a woman, wouldn't Ned's children still come first?

 

[DarthSkywalker]

And remind me again: Lyanna being a woman, wouldn't Ned's children still come first?

Spoiler

He would be the king of all of Westeros, which means the North is his. I would imagine he'd make Sansa the Warden of the North right now, but outside of that yeah it would belong to him.

Having a "King of the North" who is truly the King of Westeros doesn't seem like a bad play. But right now I expect the people to rally to Sansa and Jon together.