Civil War What you didn't like about Captain America: Civil War - Flaws/Critiques

[gdw]

So did my audience, I was confused because I felt it was a serious moment...

I laughed as well. It wasn't because it was a bad moment though. It was more an "Oh ****!" moment, and everyone laughed at it, in an appropriate way.

It was much more "holy ****" laughter, than "that was stupid" laughter. There was zero "that was stupid" laughter both times I've seen it.

It's a very serious moment, and abrupt, and THAT'S why people laughed. Like when people laugh at a magic trick where nothing funny happened, it's just the involuntary response to the shock and awe they are experiencing in that moment.

I guess, being a magician, and being VERY familiar with this kind of reaction, the audience's responses felt perfectly appropriate and natural in the moment.

 

[gdw]

If he's pissed - he's not reading the letter. He'd be setting it off somewhere or flatout throwing it away.

You do realize that people can have more than one feeling at a time, yes? And their responses to situations can be much more complex than the binary blind anger, or total forgiveness, you guys are projecting onto Tony, yes?

You can be pissed, but still, at least partially, receptive. That is the entire point of the scene. Tony is having doubts at the end of the film. Rhodey's scene was to give Tony's actions some validation, and the letter/cell scene was for the other side of Tony's internal conflict. His doubt in what he's done, and the seeds of forgiveness that are obviously there. He can't write his friends off, butt, while he knows where he was undeniably wrong, he still thinks he believes he's on the right side of things.

Tony's conflicted at the end, that's the entire point.

 

[gdw]

. . . the Russia fight and it's aftermath is THE dramatic and character high point of the movie and initially left me with a great feeling of tension. The letter part dissipated that to a large degree.
. . .

Yes, it did, and that was it's purpose. You can't end the movie on that level of unresolved tension.
The audience would have felt 100% ripped off. The film would have introduced a conflict, and only increased the conflict, with no real resolution, by the end of the film.

While some films absolutely CAN do this, this is not that kind of film. I could see something like Daredevil ending a season like that, but not a movie about the Sentinel of Liberty.
The absolutely must be, at the very least, some tiny glimmer of hope.

 

[gdw]

. . .

And as I said there were smarter and better ways for the fight to go, have Spidey get one good hit on Cap and him to realise he couldn't get it again so he played it more tactically.

But that IS what happened. Spidey initially took cap out doing as Tony told him, going for his legs. Cap was literally knocked on his ass by Spidey.
Then Cap flipped the tables tactically, using Spidey's web's, and ultimately his strength "trapping" him under the overpass, against him.

 

[gdw]

Because there was no immediate threat? Steve said "whenever you need us."



But Zemo didn't win. The movie tries to have its cake and eat it too. Zemo says he won, but we see that Cap is ready to work with Tony again, and Tony accepts his peace offering. What kind of Avengers break-up is that?

Tony not only read and clearly absorbed Cap's entire letter, but he keeps the cell-phone, and ignores Ross. Those three things immediately dissolve any dramatic tension that might have persisted into future films. We see Tony accept Cap's olive branch. That's not a glimmer of hope, that's a resolution to the emotional cliffhanger that this movie needed to end on. For chrissakes, at least have Stark deliberate a bit about keeping the phone. Can't we lend even a little bit of weight to the fallout between our heroes?

That he read the letter and kept the cell phone don't mean some "olive branch" has been accepted. That's not in the movie, that's just your interpretation. As for Ross, Tony did exactly what he told Ross he was going to do. It was a callback, not a conclusion.

/\ Exactly.
The Ross thing was established well before Tony's final showdown with Cap and Bucky. The wedge between Tony and the government was well established long before the end of the movie.

Keeping the phone is certainly NOT accepting an olive branch, it's just being smart.
Hell, Tony probably doesn't even know why he's keeping the phone, because he has NOT forgiven them, YET. That last word is what is key.

 

[Wylie Times]

/\ Exactly.
The Ross thing was established well before Tony's final showdown with Cap and Bucky. The wedge between Tony and the government was well established long before the end of the movie.

Keeping the phone is certainly NOT accepting an olive branch, it's just being smart.
Hell, Tony probably doesn't even know why he's keeping the phone, because he has NOT forgiven them, YET. That last word is what is key.

He doesn't even touch the phone, he just dumps it out the box and stares at it.

 

[gdw]

We already knew he was ignoring Ross after he left the raft after failing to get his help, put on the suit and went to help Cap.

As for the phone scene, why would Tony trash two clues to where Cap is, since Steve is his only lead to Bucky, the guy he wants dead? It's an ambiguous scene and if you don't like that they ended on an ambiguous note, that's fine. But the idea it's a reconciliation is just an opinion.

Yes. And I'm guilty of this as well, but the absolute insistence of there being a reconciliation, when the ending was undeniably, explicitly, open ended, and ambiguous. I know, "explicitly" "ambiguous." Any who.

We do know that Tony has NOT (fully) forgiven them, given the way he left the fight. We can't forget that those were his last word's to Steve. If you think that keeping a phone is indicative of reconciliation, while still leaving those as the last words to your friends, then you have a VERY odd definition of "reconciliation."

As much as Steve reached out to Tony, Steve receives NOTHING back to indicate one way or another. All he knows is where Tony ended it.
That's NOT a reconciliation.
Steve sends a letter to say the bridge is not burned down, but Tony has yet to walk back across it. We just know (but Steve does NOT) that Tony knows that he MIGHT cross that bridge in the future. That's the MOST we can infer from the letter scene.

The fact that we KNOW they will meet again in the Infinity films is irrelevant, as we knew that regardless of how CW ended.

 

[gdw]

He doesn't even touch the phone, he just dumps it out the box and stares at it.

Even better! Nice catch. Makes it even more, undeniably, ambiguous.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Yes, it did, and that was it's purpose. You can't end the movie on that level of unresolved tension.
The audience would have felt 100% ripped off. The film would have introduced a conflict, and only increased the conflict, with no real resolution, by the end of the film.

While some films absolutely CAN do this, this is not that kind of film. I could see something like Daredevil ending a season like that, but not a movie about the Sentinel of Liberty.
The absolutely must be, at the very least, some tiny glimmer of hope.

As I have stated before you can still do that without intimating that A LOT if not most of that tension was disapated with the letter scene. Cap can say most of what is in that letter to one of the team members like say Falcon or Clint when he breaks them out and get across both his regrets and state he will still be there for Tony if need be... BUT Tony doesn't need to know all that and he should still be emotionally raw come their next meeting. Which to my mind will feel false given Tony's reactions in the letter scene. Look, all of this is in the context of suspension of disbelief. We all know the band is going to get back together at some point. But that is just it, the scene in Russia raised emotional stakes and had me wondering what that reconciliation could be like... Only to have it perfunctorily answered a few minutes later in a way I found not so believable. Look, it is a great film and part of it was the emotional ride and I would have liked it to sustain that until the end and going forward into the next film. For myself the letter and Tony's reaction felt false and forced. It doesn't end up ruining this film but it lowered the drama for future films going forward to a great degree for myself. I just didn't see why a film which even if it's Evans' last Cap film had to end on a supposed "positive" note when we will get MORE Cap as a pivotal character in at least two other films. His story is not over by any stretch so I didn't need to see the beginning of a reconciliation in the film that was about the rending of the Avengers team and the relationship, such as it was, between Steve and Tony. Having the film called CIVIL WAR end on a high note seems important to a lot of people but I honestly could have done without it as I was enjoying some meaty dramatic character stuff that I thought was handled incredibly well and which resonated greatly.

 

[Infinity9999x]

As a huge Spidey fan I was fine with how the fight went. Peter was insecure and inexperienced and that made him "lose". It wasn't like Cap could knock him out, he just outsmarted him and stalled him for a while, and it's not exactly like Spidey didn't get to shine a ton during the fight overall either.

Also, movie Cap is clearly not 616 Cap. 616 Cap never could have pulled a helicopter down.

 

[mightiest_mortal]

"Has anybody got any Orange slices?"

*entire UK audience looks confused*
*UK audience begins wondering if its because ants like oranges? I'm sure I would have remembered Davide Attenborourgh mention this*

 

[SuperAl]

It was much more "holy ****" laughter, than "that was stupid" laughter. There was zero "that was stupid" laughter both times I've seen it.

What?? Is there some laughter language where you can figure out if a laugh is a "oh *****" laugh or a "that was stupid" laugh.

Why ruin that dramatic moment? It completely killed that entire scene. Not every scene needs to end with a joke or something comedic. Someone was potentially dead, the last thing you do is try to make the audience laugh. It completely took me out of the moment. I just rolled my eyes.

 

[mightiest_mortal]

Why ruin that dramatic moment? It completely killed that entire scene. Not every scene needs to end with a joke or something comedic. Someone was potentially dead, the last thing you do is try to make the audience laugh. It completely took me out of the moment. I just rolled my eyes.

I think it added to the drama and made the scene. It showed Stark truly raging internally.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I was talking about the damage incurred AFTER he shows up in Siberia. Cap and Tony don't engage in a one on one fight until AFTER Cap and Bucky have, together, severely damaged his suit.
The reactor did not have any trouble while he was going after Bucky, at which point he was NOT fighting Cap, he was just trying to shake him off so he could kill Bucky.
Tony does not fully engage Cap until AFTER Bucky nearly rips the arc reactor out, which is what I've been saying from the start.

WHEN CAP AND TONY FIGHT one on one, Tony's suit is severely damaged. Pointing to BEFORE the one on one fight, BEFORE the damage was incurred, serves no purpose.

Okay, but even then, IM should wiped the floor with Cap, the IM armour has survived a tank shell full on, houses collapsing on it, flying through a Leviathan, and more. IM was still able to take hits from Iron Monger with a damaged suit, and Thor, and Hulk. Bucky shouldn't have been able to pin him to the wall when he did the damage to the reactor either, IM should have been able to just push him off one handed and even then, Cap should have been totally outclassed.

The movie is great, I love it, but this is a major flaw with the final battle.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

But that IS what happened. Spidey initially took cap out doing as Tony told him, going for his legs. Cap was literally knocked on his ass by Spidey.
Then Cap flipped the tables tactically, using Spidey's web's, and ultimately his strength "trapping" him under the overpass, against him.

But again, the fight was way too one sided in Caps favour, when it shouldn't have been. I didn't mind the Spidey fight in isolation, but to also later in the same movie also have Cap take down IM as well made it a flaw in the movie for me.

 

[marcvader]

Damn you guys like to argue in circles and repeat the same opinion ad nauseum.

 

[mightiest_mortal]

Okay, but even then, IM should wiped the floor with Cap, the IM armour has survived a tank shell full on, houses collapsing on it, flying through a Leviathan, and more. IM was still able to take hits from Iron Monger with a damaged suit, and Thor, and Hulk. Bucky shouldn't have been able to pin him to the wall when he did the damage to the reactor either, IM should have been able to just push him off one handed and even then, Cap should have been totally outclassed.

The movie is great, I love it, but this is a major flaw with the final battle.

All of Tonys "gimmick" suits have been FAR weaker than his regular Iron-Man suits. His suitcase one was damaged badly by Whiplash of all people, and his flying IronMan3 armour fell apart on its own regularly. Neither had anything like the kind of weaponry of his other suits too.

Way I see it, Iron-Man was wearing his fold-out-of-a-helicopter-gimmick armour rather than one of his more durable and more powerful armours. Lets be honest, he's not going to keep his strongest armour hidden away in a helicopter incase he might need it one day

(This is just my head canon lol)

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

All of Tonys "gimmick" suits have been FAR weaker than his regular Iron-Man suits. His suitcase one was damaged badly by Whiplash of all people, and his flying IronMan3 armour fell apart on its own regularly.

Way I see it, Iron-Man was wearing his fold-out-of-a-helicopter-gimmick armour rather than one of his more durable and more powerful armours. Lets be honest, he's not going to keep his strongest armour hidden away in a helicopter incase he might need it one day

(This is just my head canon lol)

Ha ha if that's your own logic that's fair enough. Though that 'gimmick' armour still ripped apart a huge metal door just before the fight.

I just feel they could have chosen a smarter way for Cap to beat IM, brute force alone it simply shouldn't have happened.

 

[Wylie Times]

Ha ha if that's your own logic that's fair enough. Though that 'gimmick' armour still ripped apart a huge metal door just before the fight.

I just feel they could have chosen a smarter way for Cap to beat IM, brute force alone it simply shouldn't have happened.

It really wasn't just brute force though. They systematically picked his armor apart, and it took two of them to do it. From the airport fight on you can see all the damage Tony's armor is taking in his HUD. Even then it took two super soldiers constantly hitting him from behind to stop him.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

It really wasn't just brute force though. They systematically picked his armor apart, and it took two of them to do it. From the airport fight on you can see all the damage Tony's armor is taking in his HUD. Even then it took two super soldiers constantly hitting him from behind to stop him.

Was it even the same armour as the airport scene though? He seemed to have no problems flying there or ripping a metal door open to get in there.

And sorry but Cap stopping IM mid flight to damage his thrusters and keep him grounded was another thing that shouldn't have happened. And even with all of the damage, he still should have been too much for both of them in my view.

 

[Wylie Times]

Was it even the same armour as the airport scene though? He seemed to have no problems flying there or ripping a metal door open to get in there.

Yes it was the exact same armor. He was able to fly in the airport after Ant-Man damaged his armor too. We've seen him be able to fly before even damaged.

And sorry but Cap stopping IM mid flight to damage his thrusters and keep him grounded was another thing that shouldn't have happened. And even with all of the damage, he still should have been too much for both of them in my view.

You're underestimating how strong Cap actually is in the MCU. We've see him hurl motorcycles before. The Extremis soldiers had comparable strength and they had similar feats to Cap, they were just able to tear through the armors because of their heat powers.

And like I said, they were constantly attacking him from behind. As soon as he got the upper hand on one the other would attack with either the shield or Bucky's metal arm.

 

[Aejej]

Hahahaha! Sorry, dudes. Jamon's on the money. Iron Man SHOULD have cleaned Cap's and Bucky's clocks, suitcase armor or no suitcase armor. Iron Stark can hover out of reach of any ground-based opponent. The weapons array in any given armor is so extensive, he should've been able to hogtie them together the way the two cops were in Men at Work. When they showed the scene of Cap/Bucky kicking his ass in the trailer, I thought "No way."

It's called bad writing, people. Deal with it.

 

[Aejej]

And like I said, they were constantly attacking him from behind. As soon as he got the upper hand on one the other would attack with either the shield or Bucky's metal arm.

I guess we'll chalk it up to Tony's blind rage and tactical oversight.

 

[Nathan]

Iron Stark can hover out of reach of any ground-based opponent.

Which is why they moved the fight to an enclosed area, where he doesn't have much maneuverability.

The weapons array in any given armor is so extensive, he should've been able to hogtie them together the way the two cops were in Men at Work.

Weapons, most of which would have flat out murdered Cap, but that wasn't his goal. And he tried to tie Cap up. It didn't hold.

When they showed the scene of Cap/Bucky kicking his ass in the trailer, I thought "No way."

They pretty much didn't give him any time to react. And two super soldiers teaming up, are more than challenging enough, especially since he was holding back, because Cap was in the vicinity. And even with the 2 pummeling him, they still barely did any damage. Heck, Ironman basically won the fight. Bucky lost an arm, Cap was barely standing. And you have to remember, he was still holding back, because he didn't want Cap dead. He only really lost because he wasn't paying attention.

It's called bad writing, people. Deal with it.

Or maybe just pay attention and actually watch carefully how they set up the entire confrontation.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Yes it was the exact same armor. He was able to fly in the airport after Ant-Man damaged his armor too. We've seen him be able to fly before even damaged.



You're underestimating how strong Cap actually is in the MCU. We've see him hurl motorcycles before. The Extremis soldiers had comparable strength and they had similar feats to Cap, they were just able to tear through the armors because of their heat powers.

And like I said, they were constantly attacking him from behind. As soon as he got the upper hand on one the other would attack with either the shield or Bucky's metal arm.

Okay then, say it's the same suit, it was still able to rip open a huge metal door with just his hands with the same suit to get in there. Cap and Bucky had to break in. Even with 50% power, he should have been able to knock Cap clean out with one punch, and then rip Bucky literally in half.

Their punches still shouldn't have had much impact either, as the Mk 3 armour with 20% power was still taking full on hits from Iron Monger with no damage in the first movie. And this is what now, the Mk.9 at least?