The Defenders The Defenders Discussion Thread (NO SPOILER TAGS NECESSARY!)

[Iceman]

I would blame Scott Buck

Safe strategy

 

[Random490]

I did note that Claire didn't feel like the bridge between characters we were expecting. Instead, she felt like a Luke Cage supporting character. It makes me wonder if that's her role in the future.

Exactly, really down played her contributions and undercut her as the figure tying all four together.

Considering that Claire won't be in The Punisher (according to interviews the showrunners tried to find a way to fit Claire in organically, and they couldn't), that seems like it.

I've had this theory that Karen probably will be taking over as crossover character since she's coming over from Daredevil as well to be on The Punisher, and there's seeds for her to make possible appearances on Jessica Jones season 2 with the new bond she's formed with Trish.

I don't think there'll be just one character in every series anymore. Now that the event of them meeting is over, who pops up and where will be completely open.

The argument fell flat for me in a different way: because Cole wasn't financially desperate and he wasn't being roughed up in the midst of committing some very minor petty crime, he was caught in the midst of destroying dead bodies.

I didn't mind the scene or the idea. I like how it gives Danny an new insight about how to proceed. We've seen the "interrogation small fish to get to the big fish" play out a lot. So to go right to the top was refreshing. The problem was Cole's character gain no sympathy, you got a little bit in his last scene but not enough. So you never feel bad for him because he made his own decision. If they wrote him as someone who was scared, remorseful, and had no choice then it would have worked. But it seemed pretty obvious that he signed up knowing what he was getting into.

 

[KevTravels]

It'd have been great if we got a scene where Claire at least mentioned to both Luke and Danny (when they had the pow wow) that she knew another hero (alluding to DD) that she once helped.

It'd have been useful and made sense.

 

[KevTravels]

so is it easy to assume the eariest we might see season 2 would be summer 2019?

 

[dmcreif]

so is it easy to assume the eariest we might see season 2 would be summer 2019?

Likely. Depends on what the negotiations go like and what the actors' shooting schedules are like.

 

[TheVileOne]

Also, we don't know what Marvel Netflix looks like in 2019.

 

[dmcreif]

Also, we don't know what Marvel Netflix looks like in 2019.

Remember that the agreement for the Netflix shows is different from the one that is used for distribution of the films.

 

[TheVileOne]

Remember that the agreement for the Netflix shows is different from the one that is used for distribution of the films.

It might be different, but have you seen the agreement for all the shows? Do we know what the time limit is? Also, Disney said they want TV shows for their streaming service as well. Will they be OK with the Marvel Netflix shows staying on Netflix? There's just still a lot of unknown variables here.

 

[dmcreif]

It might be different, but have you seen the agreement for all the shows? Do we know what the time limit is? Also, Disney said they want TV shows for their streaming service as well. Will they be OK with the Marvel Netflix shows staying on Netflix? There's just still a lot of unknown variables here.

The deal that's being ended is Disney's original distribution deal with Netflix, which basically gave Netflix exclusive streaming rights for Disney's theatrical releases and their TV shows. The Netflix shows are produced by Netflix, and so are a joint collaboration between Netflix and Marvel TV.

To quote what someone I know on Reddit says (link here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Defenders/...s_exit_isnt_as_bad_for_netflix_watchers_as/):

Officially, the shows are jointly produced between Marvel TV and ABC Studios. Yes, both are owned by Disney. However, my impression has always been that Netflix is more than just a distribution platform. Whatever contract they signed in 2013 and then extended this year with the additional season orders of JJ, LC, and IF surely gives them some sort of creative input on top of exclusive distribution rights. The folks on the Marvel TV side have always spoken very highly of their partners at Netflix, and obviously Netflix has the final say in ordering new seasons of any of the shows.
In fact, now that I'm thinking about it, I'd say that in this case, Netflix operates pretty closely to a traditional television network: they're paying for the development and licensing of first-run original programming and I would assume, like a traditional network, they would have something in their contract that would require a significant buy-out if Marvel decided they wanted to yank all of their shows and move to another network/platform. Traditionally, shows stay at the network that bought them unless they get cancelled -- I don't think I've ever heard of a high profile example of a popular show moving networks preemptively. So this is where things differ quite a bit: with the Disney movies, Netflix is purely a distributor and nothing else, but with the Marvel TV shows, which are basically developed in-house with Netflix, and Netflix provides $$$ and a flexible, creative, creator driven arena for creating quality on-brand programming. I just don't see it as being financially reasonable or rational to move not just 1, but 6 television shows (DD, JJ, LC, IF, Punisher, Defenders) that have already been developed within an environment that's been financially and creatively nurtured by Netflix...to where? ABC? Another streaming platform? Save them for a possible future Marvel tv network? None of the alternatives make sense. The only thing that really makes sense is to keep the Netflix and Marvel collaboration intact.

 

[ImSGirl95]

So ... um ...

Netflix ‘Marvel’s The Defenders’ Is Least-Viewed Among Marvel Street-Hero Series in Debut Month, Study Finds

http://variety.com/2017/digital/new...fenders-least-viewed-series-debut-1202564402/

 

[dmcreif]

So ... um ...

Netflix ‘Marvel’s The Defenders’ Is Least-Viewed Among Marvel Street-Hero Series in Debut Month, Study Finds

http://variety.com/2017/digital/new...fenders-least-viewed-series-debut-1202564402/

That doesn't mean anything. For all we know, there's a million reasons why ratings are down. Could be there's other things on TV that are more engaging. Or it could be that some people are holding off watching The Defenders until they've gotten through all 5 seasons of MCU Netflix preceding the show so that they don't miss out on any potentially important details.

Also, this analytical company Jumpshot has a bit of flip-flopping of opinions. Earlier this year, they reported Iron Fist was the least watched Marvel/Netflix show, only to later retract, claiming it was one of the most viewed shows, so I'd take their data with a bit of skepticism: https://mic.com/articles/171777/iro...etflix-original-to-date-here-s-why#.LAdTSzXLs http://comicbook.com/marvel/2017/08/23/iron-fist-success-netflix/

 

[herolee10]

Having recently seen the newest trailer for the Punisher, I have to ask, why the hell does that show look like it had a MUCH BIGGER budget than the Defenders (you know, the show that all of these solo series were building up to as a big event)?

Wow, I really hope that IF there is a second season that they not only increase the episode count to 13 (like how every other show is) but that they give them a serious big boost in their production budget.

I honestly felt like the Defenders (looking back at it now) looked like the cheapest out of ALL of the solo shows at times and that they had run out of a decent budget by the time they came to episode 6.

The Punisher actually looks like it could pass as a film in terms of its production value, whereas this show looks like it was made on a cheaper budget than the CW-DCTV shows.

 

[dmcreif]

Having recently seen the newest trailer for the Punisher, I have to ask, why the hell does that show look like it had a MUCH BIGGER budget than the Defenders (you know, the show that all of these solo series were building up to as a big event)?

Wow, I really hope that IF there is a second season that they not only increase the episode count to 13 (like how every other show is) but that they give them a serious big boost in their production budget.

I honestly felt like the Defenders (looking back at it now) looked like the cheapest out of ALL of the solo shows at times and that they had run out of a decent budget by the time they came to episode 6.

The Punisher actually looks like it could pass as a film in terms of its production value, whereas this show looks like it was made on a cheaper budget than the CW-DCTV shows.

The original Netflix agreement was for one standalone season of 13 episodes for each hero, and then eight episodes of *The Defenders*. Then *Daredevil* proved a popular hit so it got greenlit for a second season and *Luke Cage* and *Iron Fist* got bumped back a cycle to let *Daredevil* season 2 come out earlier.

I don't know the exact terms of the contract, but as far as I'm aware, that original agreement covered the budget for the originally ordered seasons plus *The Defenders*. Everything outside of that - *Daredevil* season 2, *The Punisher*, and post-*Defenders* seasons for each Netflix show - are negotiated under separate contracts and thus are budgeted separately.

 

[Dasher10]

Does this mean that Defenders will be canceled? I feel like the budget issue was due to paying the entire cast to show up + CGI and the sets for Episodes 3 and 8. It was $40,000,000 for the show which is the same across season 1 of all the other shows and having the cast size of a solo series + an increased emphasis on CGI and fight scenes meant that even with half the season length, the show still had half the budget it needed. Iron Fist already looked cheap on the same budget and having Danny's powers written out for two episodes translated to saving money.

Plus there was the villain problem. The Hand weren't interesting and much of that had to do with how Iron Fist derailed them and changed them from ninjas into an alternate version of HYDRA. The bad guys simply weren't interesting, their plan was both convoluted and nonsensical and they wound up not actually doing much of anything. It was really the story of Elektra betraying The Hand and then redeeming herself by saving Matt at the end. Plus Alexandra wasn't a character from the comics.

Interviews also made it clear that the writers had trouble coming up with ideas for how to handle The Hand and that was in large part due to how Iron Fist wrote them. The show was handled by the Daredevil writers room and they had to deal with the immediate aftermath of a very messy Iron Fist show.

Now if the series got double the budget, Scott Buck didn't bungle Iron Fist and we got a more familiar villain, Defenders would be regarded very differently.

Combine that with much of the audience for each show not watching the other ones and audiences needing to get caught up on continuity.

 

[TheVileOne]

Having recently seen the newest trailer for the Punisher, I have to ask, why the hell does that show look like it had a MUCH BIGGER budget than the Defenders (you know, the show that all of these solo series were building up to as a big event)?

Wow, I really hope that IF there is a second season that they not only increase the episode count to 13 (like how every other show is) but that they give them a serious big boost in their production budget.

I honestly felt like the Defenders (looking back at it now) looked like the cheapest out of ALL of the solo shows at times and that they had run out of a decent budget by the time they came to episode 6.

The Punisher actually looks like it could pass as a film in terms of its production value, whereas this show looks like it was made on a cheaper budget than the CW-DCTV shows.

I got to be honest, doesn't look like the budget for Punisher was that much bigger.

 

[kguillou]

Sigh, I can actually believe the whole "least watched series" thing simply because there is just NO buzz around this show at all. It literally came and went. DD, JJ, and LC all lots of online and social media buzz surrounding them. Hell, even IRON FIST had a ton of online conversation going (mostly because everyone was shocked at how bad it was) but with The Defenders, the "Netflix Avengers," there is just radio silence, like the show never happened.

Man that is depressing as **** especially since its NOT a bad show. Its flawed and didn't live up to its full potential but I felt like the show had a lot of good going for it especially when the characters came together.

I also feel like the marketing awareness for this show was very lackluster. I live around NYC and when DD, JJ, LC and IF were airing there would be huge billboards and ads around the city advertising those shows around Times Square. I never jack squat for The Defenders. Just sayin'.

 

[Random490]

That doesn't mean anything. For all we know, there's a million reasons why ratings are down. Could be there's other things on TV that are more engaging. Or it could be that some people are holding off watching The Defenders until they've gotten through all 5 seasons of MCU Netflix preceding the show so that they don't miss out on any potentially important details.

Also, this analytical company Jumpshot has a bit of flip-flopping of opinions. Earlier this year, they reported Iron Fist was the least watched Marvel/Netflix show, only to later retract, claiming it was one of the most viewed shows, so I'd take their data with a bit of skepticism: https://mic.com/articles/171777/iro...etflix-original-to-date-here-s-why#.LAdTSzXLs http://comicbook.com/marvel/2017/08/23/iron-fist-success-netflix/

Exactly, I take this with a grain of salt, we may never know how well Defenders preform because Netflix never releases that information. This is just a company making an educated guess. So I'm not worried

 

[Dasher10]

My main worry now is that storylines like Seven Capital Cities of Heaven and Shadowland and villains like The Hood might be off the table. I can see three additional seasons happening and now I worry that they might not happen.

 

[metaphysician]

I'm not sure how it can be "cancelled", since there's not a contract for a second season to be made yet. It might not get a second season, but that's not really a "cancellation". I imagine the biggest factor there would be their arrangements with Disney.

 

[rashad]

[YT]bfjvoEvAzCE[/YT]

 

[KevTravels]

Sigh, I can actually believe the whole "least watched series" thing simply because there is just NO buzz around this show at all. It literally came and went. DD, JJ, and LC all lots of online and social media buzz surrounding them. Hell, even IRON FIST had a ton of online conversation going (mostly because everyone was shocked at how bad it was) but with The Defenders, the "Netflix Avengers," there is just radio silence, like the show never happened.

Man that is depressing as **** especially since its NOT a bad show. Its flawed and didn't live up to its full potential but I felt like the show had a lot of good going for it especially when the characters came together.

I also feel like the marketing awareness for this show was very lackluster. I live around NYC and when DD, JJ, LC and IF were airing there would be huge billboards and ads around the city advertising those shows around Times Square. I never jack squat for The Defenders. Just sayin'.

I feel the same. There were a lot of interest/interviews/articles online but it seemed as that was the jist of it. This should have been the summer phenom for tv/Netflix. And yet it wasn't.

After the hit of the other shows, they should have showered this with even more $$$ for production and promotion.

 

[Mike Murdock]

I'm not sure how it can be "cancelled", since there's not a contract for a second season to be made yet. It might not get a second season, but that's not really a "cancellation". I imagine the biggest factor there would be their arrangements with Disney.

Non-renewal, which is often used interchangeably. That being said, Disney's streaming service would theoretically be the biggest snag.

 

[TheVileOne]

[YT]bfjvoEvAzCE[/YT]

Basically, if they were going to use the Hand as villains, they should've used The Beast.

 

[dmcreif]

Non-renewal, which is often used interchangeably. That being said, Disney's streaming service would theoretically be the biggest snag.

There was a Redditor I run into a lot who said that logistically, it doesn't make sense to move the Netflix MCU shows. It would cost too much money for Marvel to set up another streaming service for their mature content and break their existing agreements with various networks to feel worth it.

 

[dmcreif]

Does anyone have a problem with Elektra here, or is it just me?

I am in no way criticizing Elodie Yung for her performance. She's great for this part. But here's the thing about Elektra: she was fine from Episode 1-5 when she was clearly not herself and under brainwashing by the Hand, as I could sympathize with her. However, I lost all sympathy for Elektra the moment she killed Stick, and then later on killed Alexandra and took over the Hand, fully intending to continue their plans for her own desires.


Also, there's another problem I feel Elektra cause for the story, in that her past relationship with Matt makes The Defenders plot become a bit of a love story. I know Matt wants to believe Elektra has still got a sliver of good in her, and that's why he's willing to stay back and die in a futile attempt to save her even through he had seen her kill Stick and lead the Hand. But in retrospect, it just makes Matt come off as selfish and a little bit suicidal. Because sure, Matt is a Catholic and forgiveness is a big deal (hell, in the comics, he forgave Karen even after she ruined his life by selling out his identity), but Elektra has clearly gone beyond the point of forgiveness for actions that she willingly CHOSE to do. After all, she CHOSE to kill Stick. She CHOSE to kill Alexandra. She CHOSE to continue the Hand's dragon bone mining operation. She wasn't brainwashed into any of those choices.