The Last Jedi General Episode VIII News/Speculation/SPOILER Thread - - - Part 12

[KRYPTON INC.]

But that three years was enough time for him to search more about the Jedi and learn swordsman skills. It would never have been the best training possible, but it's at the very least believable and would put him at a bigger advantage than where she was. There's a gap in time where there's a plausible explanation. This is the thing that bugs me as well, a lightsaber is not a staff, it's not an easy weapon to use and neither Rey nor Finn were particularly comfortable with wielding it in TFA, and yet she seemed more than comfortable using it here. I just think a lot of leaps in logic are being used to explain the sudden elevation in skill level. There's got to be some rules within the universe that have to be followed, it can't all just be excused with 'The Force'.

From an old martial artist's perspective who specifically trained weapons fighting... People put too much stock in the differences in the use of hand held weapons. Single sword/stick, single knife, double sword/stick, long and short (sword and dagger or stick and dagger), staff, flexible weapons... There's WAY more cross over in the actual applicable skills than most people who haven't trained in weapons can appreciate. Once you got the angles down, foot work and spend a little time with each you see the common threads in technique and use while getting an understanding on the inherent differences.

In fact we through pop culture and the evolution of military science in general have made the use of these types of weapons far too "mystical". The evolution of martial arts since the introduciton of fire arms also plays into this. But the truth is great applicable skills aren't as hard to train and pick up as we like to think. Yes, you have to put in the time, LOTS of time, but looking at history the idea that only great swordsmen and weapon masters come from years of study is nonsense when you consider how old wars pre-firearms were fought, partially because the truth is there are a lot of un-sexy skills ancient warriors needed that in some ways superceded accumulating thousands of techniques with any hand held weapon. Now... Add in the super natural power of the Force, enhancing physical ability and the senses along with a "sixth" or even "seventh" sense?

My point is, it's my experience that Rey had the bare bones skill to use a weapon like a lightsaber with some finesse.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Where are you getting this? She couldn't even use a blaster properly the first time she used it.

She obviously had some kind of training in fighting as seen in TFA on Jakku. And not to get too real with this all but... She's a young attractive woman on a planet full of desperate and poor scum... I don't think it's out of the question that she learned to fight to defend herself not only against someone taking her life.

Spoiler

As well as having some kind of formal training with weapons as she shows on Ach-To BEFORE she ignites the saber. She shows a form of some kind using her staff. She also has that moment attempting to fight Luke.

 

[jmc]

From an old martial artist's perspective who specifically trained weapons fighting... People put too much stock in the differences in the use of hand held weapons. Single sword/stick, single knife, double sword/stick, long and short (sword and dagger or stick and dagger), staff, flexible weapons... There's WAY more cross over in the actual applicable skills than most people who haven't trained in weapons can appreciate. Once you got the angles down, foot work and spend a little time with each you see the common threads in technique and use while getting an understanding on the inherent differences.

In fact we through pop culture and the evolution of military science in general have made the use of these types of weapons far too "mystical". The evolution of martial arts since the introduciton of fire arms also plays into this. But the truth is great applicable skills aren't as hard to train and pick up as we like to think. Yes, you have to put in the time, LOTS of time, but looking at history the idea that only great swordsmen and weapon masters come from years of study is nonsense when you consider how old wars pre-firearms were fought, partially because the truth is there are a lot of un-sexy skills ancient warriors needed that in some ways superceded accumulating thousands of techniques with any hand held weapon. Now... Add in the super natural power of the Force, enhancing physical ability and the senses along with a "sixth" or even "seventh" sense?

My point is, it's my experience that Rey had the bare bones skill to use a weapon like a lightsaber with some finesse.

If that were the case then Rey should have been proficient with the lightsaber from the start. The issue is she isn't. I purposely watched the Rey/Kylo fight in TFA now just to see if there was something I was overlooking, that perhaps the fight was far more even than I remember, and I encourage others to watch it again also just as a point of reference.

Rey for the most part gets her arse kicked in that fight being on the defensive for the vast majority of it. I don't think it's any mistake for it to look that way, it's intentionally made to look like she's having a difficult time handling the situation. It's not until she focuses on the Force when she finally gets the upper hand and start demonstrating some skills.

This is why the argument some are making seems more like trying to justify a poorly thought out character arc. She purposely made to look like a novice until she focuses, which is done for dramatic purposes, suddenly that thing that awoke in her has unleashed her true power. This is why people thought she had prior training, and why for 2 years people like me defender her from people calling her a Mary Sue because it was laid out that she had previous training, because by all logic of Star Wars lore that's the only plausible answer for her sudden development. Unless you're suggesting the Force just amplified her fighting skills to be equal to that of a highly trained sith/former jedi which I think is a huge stretch.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

If that were the case then Rey should have been proficient with the lightsaber from the start. The issue is she isn't. I purposely watched the Rey/Kylo fight in TFA now just to see if there was something I was overlooking, that perhaps the fight was far more even than I remember, and I encourage others to watch it again also just as a point of reference.

Rey for the most part gets her arse kicked in that fight being on the defensive for the vast majority of it. I don't think it's any mistake for it to look that way, it's intentionally made to look like she's having a difficult time handling the situation. It's not until she focuses on the Force when she finally gets the upper hand and start demonstrating some skills.

This is why the argument some are making seems more like trying to justify a poorly thought out character arc. She purposely made to look like a novice until she focuses, which is done for dramatic purposes, suddenly that thing that awoke in her has unleashed her true power. This is why people thought she had prior training, and why for 2 years people like me defender her from people calling her a Mary Sue because it was laid out that she had previous training, because by all logic of Star Wars lore that's the only plausible answer for her sudden development. Unless you're suggesting the Force just amplified her fighting skills to be equal to that of a highly trained sith/former jedi which I think is a huge stretch.

She is not a novice. She simply isn't Kylo at that point. There is a difference.

 

[jmc]

She is not a novice. She simply isn't Kylo at that point. There is a difference.

That doesn't change the point I made.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

That doesn't change the point I made.

Yes it does. Because she clearly shows skill before she gives into the Force. She is a skilled warrior withe melee weapons.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

If that were the case then Rey should have been proficient with the lightsaber from the start. The issue is she isn't. I purposely watched the Rey/Kylo fight in TFA now just to see if there was something I was overlooking, that perhaps the fight was far more even than I remember, and I encourage others to watch it again also just as a point of reference.

Rey for the most part gets her arse kicked in that fight being on the defensive for the vast majority of it. I don't think it's any mistake for it to look that way, it's intentionally made to look like she's having a difficult time handling the situation. It's not until she focuses on the Force when she finally gets the upper hand and start demonstrating some skills.

This is why the argument some are making seems more like trying to justify a poorly thought out character arc. She purposely made to look like a novice until she focuses, which is done for dramatic purposes, suddenly that thing that awoke in her has unleashed her true power. This is why people thought she had prior training, and why for 2 years people like me defender her from people calling her a Mary Sue because it was laid out that she had previous training, because by all logic of Star Wars lore that's the only plausible answer for her sudden development. Unless you're suggesting the Force just amplified her fighting skills to be equal to that of a highly trained sith/former jedi which I think is a huge stretch.

Attributes, like speed, strength, stamina, the ability to react etc. are actually a lot mor important to winning a fight than technique. The great Dan Inosanto, heir to Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do tradition (among like... SO many other sytems and a giant in the world of Filipino Marital Arts, a weapons heavy take on fighting) has said that good looking technique and fighting just are two different world. You can do a text book technique and still get your ass kicked. Meanwhile you can look at some dude that doesn't follow the "standards", his kicks look sloppy, his guard is not perfect... But he can fight. And win. Because the underlying attributes, speed, strength, footwork, stamina etc. are there. A perfect real world example is that in combat sports they have weight classes. Why? Because no matter how good the feather weight champion of the world is he's gonna get slaughtered in the ring by the heavy weight champion because the attributes of strength and durability favor the larger person.

Now I imagine that the Force, yeah, it does all that you said, enhances all the physical attributes along with the senses and all that go along with it. As we've heard before it's not swordmanship or weapons that make a Jedi... It's the Force working through them. It controls your actions but it also obeys your commands.

And Rey struggles at first and yeah... As the fight goes on and she attunes to the Force more she gets better and better. But struggling with a weapon unfamiliar to her didn't mean being all thumbs and once her attributes were charged by the Force she was able to match a wounded Kylo. But she hardly embarasses herself once she gets her hands on the saber immeiately and I think that's cause she's been fighting with weapons for a long time, specializing in the staff.

 

[jmc]

Yes it does. Because she clearly shows skill before she gives into the Force. She is a skilled warrior withe melee weapons.

So, you're honestly suggesting the Force just gave her a skill boost? No additional training required, just, boom, toe to toe with a Sith?

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

So, you're honestly suggesting the Force just gave her a skill boost? No additional training required, just, boom, toe to toe with a Sith?

It does seem to be something it does.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

So, you're honestly suggesting the Force just gave her a skill boost? No additional training required, just, boom, toe to toe with a Sith?

Not a simple skill boost. She overwhelmed Kylo. It's like being "in the zone", against a beat up and conflicted Kylo. In a film like TLJ, where they emphasis the spiritual side of the Force. That the Force itself is spiritual, you are looking for a practical explanation. Did you miss the broom?

 

[Filmfan93]

Saw it for a 4th time yesterday.

It really grows on me with each viewing and that comes from someone who loved it ever since the very first one

 

[jmc]

Attributes, like speed, strength, stamina, the ability to react etc. are actually a lot mor important to winning a fight than technique. The great Dan Inosanto, heir to Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do tradition (among like... SO many other sytems and a giant in the world of Filipino Marital Arts, a weapons heavy take on fighting) has said that good looking technique and fighting just are two different world. You can do a text book technique and still get your ass kicked. Meanwhile you can look at some dude that doesn't follow the "standards", his kicks look sloppy, his guard is not perfect... But he can fight. And win. Because the underlying attributes, speed, strength, footwork, stamina etc. are there. A perfect real world example is that in combat sports they have weight classes. Why? Because no matter how good the feather weight champion of the world is he's gonna get slaughtered in the ring by the heavy weight champion because the attributes of strength and durability favor the larger person.

Now I imagine that the Force, yeah, it does all that you said, enhances all the physical attributes along with the senses and all that go along with it. As we've heard before it's not swordmanship or weapons that make a Jedi... It's the Force working through them. It controls your actions but it also obeys your commands.

And Rey struggles at first and yeah... As the fight goes on and she attunes to the Force more she gets better and better. But struggling with a weapon unfamiliar to her didn't mean being all thumbs and once her attributes were charged by the Force she was able to match a wounded Kylo. But she hardly embarasses herself once she gets her hands on the saber immeiately and I think that's cause she's been fighting with weapons for a long time, specializing in the staff.

Even if you can make the argument Rey can wield the staff, although looking at the footage again I don't know if she's as highly skilled as you and others are indicating, she's still not someone who's been trained in anything in particular. I can buy into the idea that someone self teaches themselves some type of weapon enough for survival, I can't buy into the idea that they could go toe to toe with an expert even if they have a sudden boost of the Force because that in and of itself is a skill that needs to be trained as has been demonstrated in the past.

Look, I understand with have to take into account the fantasy aspect of these films, I don't even have a particular problem with Rey having this skill set. The problem for me is the timeline and the fact she's not had to go through the same trials as every character before her. The films are asking me to forget everything I know about Star Wars, that someone has to spend a good few years training to become a Jedi or Sith, that a lightsaber is a power and dangerous weapon to use, that all you need is someone who is proficient enough to swing something resembling a sword and is Force sensitive in order to become one of either. I can't buy that. If it was discovered she had previous training it's a non issue, even if it wasn't by a Jedi or Sith, in fact another entity outside of those two would have been a great idea. But her character arc across these two films just hasn't been consistent or earned.

 

[jmc]

It does seem to be something it does.

This is what I'm getting at. Training. This is what I don't understand from people. Training has always been a part of this franchise. Rey had none.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Saw it for a 4th time yesterday.

It really grows on me with each viewing and that comes from someone who loved it ever since the very first one

I am glad you are enjoying every viewing more and more man. t:

 

[Mask&Cape]

Where are you getting this? She couldn't even use a blaster properly the first time she used it.

From the TFA movie.

Rey is shown defending herself and BB-8 with her staff and minutes later using it catch Finn.

Being able to fight has nothing to with shooting a gun.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

This is what I'm getting at. Training. This is what I don't understand from people. Training has always been a part of this franchise. Rey had none.

Except... Luke literally goes from incapable of doing the task Obi-Wan set for him to precision control while blinded mind you... ALL THROUGH THE FORCE. In like a minute. And that's all the training he had in the Force that we saw. Later the Force works through him as he does something he was bragging about throughout ANH... Piloting. And not just any kind of piloting. This was the equivalent of someone that's an experienced Cessna pilot with no actual aerial combat under their belt at all taking part in a massive dog fight as part of a squadron at the helm of an F-35 jet fighter. How did he accomplish all that AND hit the bullseye under enormous pressure in a full combat scenario?

The Force was the only answer we got.

And the training we experienced with Luke, while some was physical, a lot more seemed intellectual, spiritual and emotional. We never see Yoda give Luke one lesson in using a saber. But we hear a lot about "concentration", "feeling" and the like, similar to Obi-Wan's words to Luke to "Stretch out with your feelings".

 

[Mask&Cape]

So I was just wondering about a few things:

So Rey was not fully trained as Jedi? Who will be her Jedi Master now? Can she train other Jedi? What about the "rule of two"?

Do the Knights of Ren have a "rule of two"?

I was just wondering if we will see a mass of Knights of Ren vs. new Jedi in the next movie battle each other.

Rey is her own master and teacher now. She'll no doubt him get the odd sage advice from Maz but the point is that the Jedi are supposed on a new path now. The "rules" are gone.

From the way Luke told the story, there were a dozen padwans and he started training them all at the same tine. Then half joined Ben. Snoke has probably been teaching them all so no rule of two there either.

Kylo is the Master of the Knights of Ren but I tookn that to mean the leader, mot teacher.

Assuming that IX will an an end to Kylo Ren and the First Order, and break for a few years for Ridley & company, Lucasfilm are going to want room to use Rey , Finn, etc. in comics, animation. So I think the story will jump ahead a few years with Rey and the Resistance having encountered some of the Knights of Ren and lost to/defeated some of them with a couple still at Kylo's side for IX.

 

[jmc]

Except... Luke literally goes from incapable of doing the task Obi-Wan set for him to precision control while blinded mind you... ALL THROUGH THE FORCE. In like a minute. And that's all the training he had in the Force that we saw. Later the Force works through him as he does something he was bragging about throughout ANH... Piloting. And not just any kind of piloting. This was the equivalent of someone that's an experienced Cessna pilot with no actual aerial combat under their belt at all taking part in a massive dog fight as part of a squadron at the helm of an F-35 jet fighter. How did he accomplish all that AND hit the bullseye under enormous pressure in a full combat scenario?

The Force was the only answer we got.

And the training we experienced with Luke, while some was physical, a lot more seemed intellectual, spiritual and emotional. We never see Yoda give Luke one lesson in using a saber. But we hear a lot about "concentration", "feeling" and the like, similar to Obi-Wan's words to Luke to "Stretch out with your feelings".

And Rey didn't even have that. Luke's awakening came about because someone taught him about it. It's established some type of external training is required to properly use the Force. It's hard for me to accept that someone just figures this stuff out on their own and become so proficient in it that quickly, literally days. I get it people are Force sensitive, but there's a difference between that and being a Force user which has always been established as something needing to be taught.

 

[markjoedelonge]

It wasn't cringe at all. But I get it's the cool word to use for anything now lol. Boyega was acting surprised as Finn of course. Clearly not having romantic feelings, but surprised to find she had them for him.

Lol I'm not using a cool word or something. I'm describing my reaction to it. I literally cringed. It was such a forced "romance".

 

[harlequinade]

It wasn't cringe at all. But I get it's the cool word to use for anything now lol. Boyega was acting surprised as Finn of course. Clearly not having romantic feelings, but surprised to find she had them for him.

No one was more surprised than me realizing in this moment that this was supposed to be romance arc

Boyega is awful, the girl was pretty good but they had no chemistry whatsoever, particularly romantic kind

 

[Lilbaz]

Luke trained with obwan then had a couple of years between anh and esb. He then trained with yoda and darth vader still toyed with him. He was no match for vader and barely escaped losing a hand in the process. Another couple of years and he goes to rescue han in the process he uses his jedi mind trick on the orc. This is the moment we realise that he has become a jedi. It is growth through years. Rey got this in the first film. It doesn't feel earned and cheapens what it means to become a jedi.

 

[Filmfan93]

I am glad you are enjoying every viewing more and more man. t:

Yes! My 5th viewing will be on Thursday with Dad (finally). Really hope he likes it.

How are you stacking on viewings, Darth? And how does your opinion changes with each viewing? Or does it?

 

[Marvolo]

Lol I'm not using a cool word or something. I'm describing my reaction to it. I literally cringed. It was such a forced "romance".

Forced? Hardly. And I wouldnt even describe it as a romance. Its one small kiss.

In her first scene with Finn it's made abundantly clear that she idolized him and considers him a hero. So she already probably had a crush on him. Then she quickly finds out he is taking an escape pod. She is disillusioned. Then she finds out he isn't a coward. He comes up with a plan and they head off to Canto Bight. While there she opens up to him about her past. Then they are arrested, break out of jail, go on a wild stampede/ride evading the police, then the infiltrate the Supremacy, then they almost die, then they have to fight and protect each other, then they escape and again narrowly avoid death together, then they go on a suicide run together to take out the battering ram, and she ends up saving Finn's life, but as far she knows their last hope is gone. As far as she knows at that moment she and the rest of the Resistance are about to die. Considering all that is it really so hard to believe that she would have a crush on Finn and that in that moment any sane person wouldnt express those feelings?

 

[Marvolo]

Luke trained with obwan then had a couple of years between anh and esb. He then trained with yoda and darth vader still toyed with him. He was no match for vader and barely escaped losing a hand in the process. Another couple of years and he goes to rescue han in the process he uses his jedi mind trick on the orc. This is the moment we realise that he has become a jedi. It is growth through years. Rey got this in the first film. It doesn't feel earned and cheapens what it means to become a jedi.

No it doesn't. The force and Jedi aren't scientific things. Its magic. Comparing one Jedi to another is pointless because there is no set scientific baseline. Just because Luke had to do one thing to achieve something doesn't mean another Jedi has to follow his same regiment or take the same amount of time to train or that that they will pick up abilities like video game perks in a predetermined order over time.

Rey already has some melee skills. This is established in TFA. Her abilities with the Force enhance those skills. She gets stronger in the Force in this film so her abilities get better. Seems pretty logical to me. I dont need the film to waste time establishing whats already established or showing me arbitrary scenes of her sparing. Why can't people just accept that she already had some fighting ability and that the Force, a magical thing that turns beings into supernatural warrior wizards, enhances and improves her abilities? People seem to accept it just fine when a superhero is capable in a fight and has powers without extensive on screen training scenes. It should be just as easy to accept that Rey had some fighting abilities and her superpowers enhance those abilities.

 

[jmc]

Luke trained with obwan then had a couple of years between anh and esb. He then trained with yoda and darth vader still toyed with him. He was no match for vader and barely escaped losing a hand in the process. Another couple of years and he goes to rescue han in the process he uses his jedi mind trick on the orc. This is the moment we realise that he has become a jedi. It is growth through years. Rey got this in the first film. It doesn't feel earned and cheapens what it means to become a jedi.

This is what I don't get with people defending this. Luke did all this training for 3 years, both self teaching and spent time with two Jedi masters, and got his arse handed to him by Darth Vader because he wasn't ready. He was a vastly more experienced Force user than Rey and his inexperience cost him a hand.
And Rey is able to go toe to toe with someone with years of experience on her in a matter of days. It makes no sense. There's nowhere for her left to go for Episode 9 as a character, she proficient enough to be Kylo Ren's equal by film two without having to do much of anything. She's obviously going to beat him.