The Last Jedi General Episode VIII News/Speculation/SPOILER Thread - - - Part 12

[Spider-Fan]

Love this.

I'll be honest, I have no love for the prequels any way - I've never gotten over idea that if you watch all the movies the way George apparently intended (i.e. start with Phantom Menace and work on through) the Luke/Vader revelation in ESB, one of THE key twists ever in cinema, is rendered redundant.

I would much rather have seen a KOTOR movie.

Doing a Clone Wars series could have worked, but the approached it wrong and sent the wrong message. They made it ALL about Anakin Skywalker. That was the flaw. He was some Chosen One, etc. Anakin should have been a great pilot and warrior in that series, but the series should have been more about the Clone Wars and he should have been a smaller part in that larger story. Not made into a messiah. That was the mistake, and the PT is inherently flawed due to that misguided approach. It as other flaws, yes. But, that ruined its whole foundation from the get-go.

Like the fact that rey is a nobody.
Have no problem with ren killing snoke.
Do have a problem that rey can master the force with little to no training.
Do have a problem that in the ot we are lead to believe that most of the powerful force users have been killed. That the empire was defeated and the rebels won. Yet up pops possibly the most powerful force user we have ever seen who is on the verge of taking over the galaxy with no explanation.
Many of the audience don't care about this and enjoy the film. Great for them but some of us do care and think it could have been handled better.

I do think Snoke offers a possible explanation as to why he came about. He says to Rey "Darkness rises, and the light to meet it." The Emperor and Vader were gone. Luke was the last Jedi. So, if light comes to meet the darkness, for their to be true balance, should the inverse not be true also? Shouldn't the darkness rise to meet the light? That doesn't offer backstory as to where he came from, but I think it is an idea they can toy with in Episode IX.

 

[jmc]

Where the hell are you getting that from?

The time frame between ANH and ESB is 3 years. It's canon.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Over a 3 year period and the timeframe on Degobah is clearly condensed for the sake of the movie. Rey had what, 5 days? Maybe 7 between TFA and TLJ. Not time consensed for the sake of the films length, the two stories literally span a few days. Come on, you can't honestly say it's the same when the timeline for each character is so vastly different.

Who was teaching Luke between Empire and Jedi?

 

[FunkMiller]

The time frame between ANH and ESB is 3 years.

Ah. I thought you meant you thought he had three years of training on Dagobah, condensed down!

There’s no real evidence in the film to suggest Luke is on Dabogah for more than a few days, especially when paralleled with the story of the others going to Bespin.

 

[jmc]

Who was teaching Luke between Empire and Jedi?

It's entirely plausible Luke could have found more information over the years about the Jedi and Force and self taught, we know other force sensitive people exist also, and swordsman skills are easy enough to learn with someone. He wouldn't have just stopped for 3 years, then decided when he was on Hoth hanging upside down to start trying again. It's far more believable than someone getting to the level Luke was in ROTJ within a few days of discovering they are force sensitive. .

 

[Spider-Fan]

It's entirely plausible Luke could have found more information over the years about the Jedi and Force and self taught. He wouldn't have just stopped for 3 years, then decided when he was on Hoth hanging upside down to start trying again. It's far more believable than someone getting to the level Luke was in ROTJ within a few days of discovering they are force sensitive. .

That's my point. Luke taught himself what he knew of the force. While Rey may not have known she was in tune with the force through her life, she may have been learning things about it without knowing it. See how in TFA she just seems to know things like bypassing the compressor and such, and she just intuitively knows them. To me, this is the force working through her and her using the force without knowing she is using it. Between that and what Snoke says in one of my previous posts, I buy her learning quickly.

 

[FunkMiller]

That's my point. Luke taught himself what he knew of the force. While Rey may not have known she was in tune with the force through her life, she may have been learning things about it without knowing it. See how in TFA she just seems to know things like bypassing the compressor and such, and she just intuitively knows them. To me, this is the force working through her and her using the force without knowing she is using it. Between that and what Snoke says in one of my previous posts, I buy her learning quickly.

And let’s be brutally honest about this... it’s not like there’s really that much to learn when you get right down to it. How to twiddle a lightsaber round and throw things about with the force seems to be the main things that Jedi’s learn in terms of physical prowess. Rey seems pretty set with both of those before the end of TFA. They never present her as being as well trained as the likes of Obi Wan or Qui Gon. The girl can handle a blade and is powerful enough with the force to be able to naturally move stuff about. Not really sure what else there is she should have been taught.

 

[jmc]

That's my point. Luke taught himself what he knew of the force. While Rey may not have known she was in tune with the force through her life, she may have been learning things about it without knowing it. See how in TFA she just seems to know things like bypassing the compressor and such, and she just intuitively knows them. To me, this is the force working through her and her using the force without knowing she is using it. Between that and what Snoke says in one of my previous posts, I buy her learning quickly.

But Luke is considered the most powerful Jedi's in history and could barley move his X-wing half a metre after 3 years of his awakening. She's lifting dozens of massive boulders within a week with one meditation lesson to her name. So, what Rey is just 100 times more powerful than Luke ever was? If that's the case then Kylo has never been a threat and will never be one. She's already bested him twice having no real experience and has shown enough will to reject the dark side. What good is a character that is that powerful? There's no challenge that she can't deflect.

 

[Orba]

That's my point. Luke taught himself what he knew of the force. While Rey may not have known she was in tune with the force through her life, she may have been learning things about it without knowing it. See how in TFA she just seems to know things like bypassing the compressor and such, and she just intuitively knows them. To me, this is the force working through her and her using the force without knowing she is using it. Between that and what Snoke says in one of my previous posts, I buy her learning quickly.

I wouldn't say that she intuitively knew about electronics, she was left with Unkar and she grew up around scavengers and criminals so it would hardly be strange that she had picked things up over the years. She even mentioned that she knew about the modifications that had been done to the Falcon so she might have helped with some of the work that was done on it. She was also being paid in food and water so if she didn't know what things to look for when scavenging she wouldn't have lasted as long as she did.

 

[Spider-Fan]

But Luke is considered the most powerful Jedi's in history and could barley move his X-wing half a metre after 3 years of his awakening. She's lifting dozens of massive boulders within a week with one meditation lesson to her name. So, what Rey is just 100 times more powerful than Luke ever was? If that's the case then Kylo has never been a threat and will never be one. She's already bested him twice having no real experience and has shown enough will to reject the dark side. What good is a character that is that powerful? There's no challenge that she can't deflect.

Luke does say he only ever saw her raw power one other time. So, it is indeed possible she is more powerful than Luke is, just untrained and not able to control it as easily. As for Kylo presenting a challenge, while Kylo has been bested by her, they more or less have been built up as equals. In TFA, Kylo was wounded when fighting Rey. In TLJ, she doesn't really best him. She deflects him and runs off. Not the same.

Further, if Rey is more powerful than Luke was in the OT, is that really a problem?

 

[jmc]

Luke does say he only ever saw her raw power one other time. So, it is indeed possible she is more powerful than Luke is, just untrained and not able to control it as easily. As for Kylo presenting a challenge, while Kylo has been bested by her, they more or less have been built up as equals. In TFA, Kylo was wounded when fighting Rey. In TLJ, she doesn't really best him. She deflects him and runs off. Not the same.

Further, if Rey is more powerful than Luke was in the OT, is that really a problem?

If don't have a problem with it. It's just how she got there that I have the issue with. It all just comes down to timeline with me - years vs days. Here's the other thing. Heroes needs to be challenged. The hero should never been the equal of the villain, it goes against basic good vs evil storytelling.

 

[Lilbaz]

Doing a Clone Wars series could have worked, but the approached it wrong and sent the wrong message. They made it ALL about Anakin Skywalker. That was the flaw. He was some Chosen One, etc. Anakin should have been a great pilot and warrior in that series, but the series should have been more about the Clone Wars and he should have been a smaller part in that larger story. Not made into a messiah. That was the mistake, and the PT is inherently flawed due to that misguided approach. It as other flaws, yes. But, that ruined its whole foundation from the get-go.



I do think Snoke offers a possible explanation as to why he came about. He says to Rey "Darkness rises, and the light to meet it." The Emperor and Vader were gone. Luke was the last Jedi. So, if light comes to meet the darkness, for their to be true balance, should the inverse not be true also? Shouldn't the darkness rise to meet the light? That doesn't offer backstory as to where he came from, but I think it is an idea they can toy with in Episode IX.

Which makes the whole thing pointless. If luke had died in anh then another jedi would come along and another after that. The struggle is pointless. There will always be balance.

 

[markjoedelonge]

I like Rey coming from nobody. But isn't she still a chosen one in the sense that the Force has "chosen" her and imbued her with the raw power?

I have also come around on Snoke's death. Although TFA really made the impression that Snoke was the ultimate baddie, by killing Snoke, they've made Kylo the ultimate baddie. (though he has to tone down his whiny outbursts)

 

[Aximili86]

And there's been nothing really in the movies pre-The Last Jedi even indicating Luke's all that especially powerful.

Anakin? Totally. And Luke held his own against Anakin, so there's the counterargument. But you could likewise make the point that "defeating" Vader (even though, yeah, Luke defeated him) was never about besting him a duel in terms of "what the force wanted", rather appealing to his better nature and turning the actually-really-powerful guy back.

That's the balance of the force, the chosen one stuff. From The Last Jedi we get the sense that Luke's really something special & new with all that third act stuff, but that's the first indicator we've had of it.

At least with Rey and The Force Awakens we kind of get a vague sense there's some big deal about her, Kylo's aware of her (the reason why we only learned last week) and then she bests his mind-probe thingamajigger.

If you watched A New Hope in a vaccuum, knowing nothing of the other movies, you'd likely get the impression any Jedi could make that trench shot though.

And yeah, there's actual reasonable reasons Rey would have the knowledge she does in TFA. Basic fighting abilities, she's been fending for herself on a desert trading outpost since she was, what, 6? And she's salvaging star destroyers for meals, she's probably picked up some basic technical/mechanical stuff along the way. It's pretty easy to speculate she may have flown before, too - she seems to know a fair bit about Unkar's assets & operations. It's not said in-movie whether she's piloted craft before, but it's not much of a jump. Keep in mind Luke was incredibly small-time as a pilot too, nobody whines about his feats on zero training in the third act of ANH. The Force, man. Simple.

 

[Spider-Fan]

If don't have a problem with it. It's just how she got there that I have the issue with. It all just comes down to timeline with me - years vs days.

While she displays more power than say Luke did in ANH, it is not miles apart. Luke still knows the force enough to use it to destroy the death star and such, and all he had for a lesson was stopping lasers with a training blade one time. But again, I for me personally, it is adequately explained here by Snoke, and let's be honest, in so many movies, things are mastered very quickly. It's not a new cinematic tool they're using here.

Which makes the whole thing pointless. If luke had died in anh then another jedi would come along and another after that. The struggle is pointless. There will always be balance.

It doesn't make it pointless to me. The idea of balance was never really explained in great detail. Does it mean peace? Does it mean equal darkness and light? Etc. The Jedi definition indicated it means peace, but what if that is not right? Or what if the Jed miscalculated what peace meant? I actually think they have an opportunity to flesh out the idea of what balance really means in Episode IX. I feel Johnson hinted at it, and I would like Abrams to take it further.

 

[Aximili86]

Also, no, if Luke died in ANH, and another Jedi was around to take his place, that Jedi wouldn't have defeated Vader & Sheev.

The whole point of Luke is he's Anakin's kid. Anakin's kid, making the right choice in front of Anakin, resisting the same stuff he did, makes Anakin second-guess his life.

Random Jedi doesn't do that, Luke does. It's not a power thing, it's a "he's my son" thing. Any other Jedi, Vader either sticks him with his red saber, or that Jedi defeats Vader and turns darkside, or that Jedi defeats Vader and stays lightside but gets fried extra crispy by Palps and Vader lets it happen because he doesn't give a ****.

 

[jmc]

I'll just elaborate a bit more in terms of heroes and villain. There's nowhere Kylo can go in Episode 9 that Rey can't now defend against. It's established in these two films just how much of an equal she is. Forgetting whether it's earned or not, by doing that this early it's left Rey no place to go in terms of being able to overcome the dark side. Kylo is basically a nothing villain moving forward that isn't going to present Rey an obstacle she hasn't already overcome. Good storytelling will always make the villain superior to the hero to give the hero something to work for. The victory is earned when the hero overcomes the villain in the last act of the story. Rey is going to suffer from the issues that plague modern superhero films in that the heroes aren't given sufficient obstacles to overcome.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Also, no, if Luke died in ANH, and another Jedi was around to take his place, that Jedi wouldn't have defeated Vader & Sheev.

The whole point of Luke is he's Anakin's kid. Anakin's kid, making the right choice in front of Anakin, resisting the same stuff he did, makes Anakin second-guess his life.

Random Jedi doesn't do that, Luke does. It's not a power thing, it's a "he's my son" thing.

But why does Rey need to be someone and not just another Jedi? Just because that is what the OT did? Does every story need to be the OT? Does it always have to come down to the same plot points and cliches?

 

[Lilbaz]

I particularly enjoy the fact that people keep misrepresenting what the term Mary Sue means...

Enlighten us what does it mean?

 

[Spider-Fan]

I'll just elaborate a bit more in terms of heroes and villain. There's nowhere Kylo can go in Episode 9 that Rey can't now defend against. It's established in these two films just how much of an equal she is. Forgetting whether it's earned or not, by doing that this early it's left Rey no place to go in terms of being able to overcome the dark side. Kylo is basically a nothing villain moving forward that isn't going to present Rey an obstacle she hasn't already overcome. Good storytelling will always make the villain superior to the hero to give the hero something to work for. The victory is earned when the hero overcomes the villain in the last act of the story. Rey is going to suffer from the issues that plague modern superhero films in that the heroes aren't given sufficient obstacles to overcome.

This is where I again pose the question, is simply defeating Kylo what needs to happen? Or is Rey going to learn there is more to what needs to be done? I hope it ends up being more interesting simply than another light saber duel.

Look at Luke vs Vader in TESB. Yes, they fight. But Vader's goal is not to kill Luke. Luke wants to kill Vader, yes. But Vader is testing Luke's limits, trying to capture him. Seeing if he really is a threat to the Emperor or himself. In ROTJ, Luke wants to turn Vader and Vader wants to turn Luke. There is a game of chess going on beyond just trading swords. I hope they learn this from the OT and have more layers to the Episode IX conclusion than it being simple as Rey needs to defeat Kylo. That's too simple.

 

[Aximili86]

No, I didn't mean in relation to Rey (personally I love that she's a random).

I was just rebutting his point about Luke being supposedly useless because any other Jedi could take up the mantle. They couldn't. Say Kanan or Ezra or whoever were still out there somewhere, Vader guns down Luke in ANH and the Death Star survives. Kanan or Ezra aren't taking on Vader & Sheev and coming out on top. Only Luke does that, because Vader turning back is the key, he's the Chosen One and can take down Sheev. Luke, on his own, probably couldn't, Yoda or Obi-Wan couldn't, any other straggler Jedi still around by the time of the OT sure as hell couldn't.

 

[Spider-Fan]

No, I didn't mean in relation to Rey (personally I love that she's a random).

I was just rebutting his point about Luke being supposedly useless because any other Jedi could take up the mantle. They couldn't. Say Kanan or Ezra or whoever were still out there somewhere, Vader guns down Luke in ANH and the Death Star survives. Kanan or Ezra aren't taking on Vader & Sheev and coming out on top. Only Luke does that.

Gotcha. We good

 

[SomeOldGuy]

This is where I again pose the question, is simply defeating Kylo what needs to happen? Or is Rey going to learn there is more to what needs to be done? I hope it ends up being more interesting simply than another light saber duel.

Look at Luke vs Vader in TESB. Yes, they fight. But Vader's goal is not to kill Luke. Luke wants to kill Vader, yes. But Vader is testing Luke's limits, trying to capture him. Seeing if he really is a threat to the Emperor or himself. In ROTJ, Luke wants to turn Vader and Vader wants to turn Luke. There is a game of chess going on beyond just trading swords. I hope they learn this from the OT and have more layers to the Episode IX conclusion than it being simple as Rey needs to defeat Kylo. That's too simple.

Yeah, I saw that as one of the main themes of TLJ. The Jedi and Sith are caught in an endless loop. They have to find a new paradigm. Whatever that is, I know it isn’t a lightsaber battle between Kylo and Rey.

 

[jmc]

This is where I again pose the question, is simply defeating Kylo what needs to happen? Or is Rey going to learn there is more to what needs to be done? I hope it ends up being more interesting simply than another light saber duel.

Look at Luke vs Vader in TESB. Yes, they fight. But Vader's goal is not to kill Luke. Luke wants to kill Vader, yes. But Vader is testing Luke's limits, trying to capture him. Seeing if he really is a threat to the Emperor or himself. In ROTJ, Luke wants to turn Vader and Vader wants to turn Luke. There is a game of chess going on beyond just trading swords. I hope they learn this from the OT and have more layers to the Episode IX conclusion than it being simple as Rey needs to defeat Kylo. That's too simple.

And yet I can't see how they can avoid it. I said this a while back, but TLJ ends in a way that makes sense for the conclusion of a trilogy, not as the middle chapter, and yet it is the middle chapter. The issue is there's no easy place to go from here one way or the other. If Rey is this powerful now and Kylo is no longer a challenge, and she knows her parents are nobody, what's the underlying character journey we're working with for episode 9? What's the challenge for Rey now that all her questions have been answered? They condensed a trilogy's worth of character arc into two films.

 

[Aximili86]

Which poses an interesting question - do you think there's still room for Kylo to come back after this point? After TFA I would have still said yes, long a road as it may have been, but it sort of seemed from this that even Leia's close to giving up on him by now.

Kylo sure seems all-in on the conquerer lifestyle now, not like he didn't have a couple of big moments in the second and third acts to reconsider.

Which sort of gets us to like...Rey's probably going to have to fight him in some way shape or form. Not entirely sure Kylo's going to die, but you'd think an actual throwdown almost has to happen, given where we are.

EDIT: I don't know that Kylo's "no longer a challenge", JMC. They seemed basically equals in the throne room, maybe even with Kylo edging her out a little in terms of taking on the guards. And all we really know about their natural abilities is they're both big deals. Rey being a bigger deal? Doesn't seem that's been established, they seem like equal mirror-images of each other so far.