F'dup Chapters in American History(The Trump Years) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 25

[Schlosser85]

About the DeVos situation is, it is illegal to deny a child education, no matter their immigration status. This is an attempt to go around that, while scaring families from sending their children to school.

Some of those kids are worth a million Betsy DeVoses.

 

[Aximili86]

*EDIT Accidental double-post.

 

[Aximili86]

Let's use an anology you may be able to understand. Let's say you're a parent and you have a child throwing a temper tantrum. Just because you can is it okay to beat the child as you would an adult attacker? How about teaching the child a lesson by leaving it at the store so they can find their own way home to learn a lesson?

*Laughs* Jesus. Well, that's sure an example. A totally bat**** crazy one, but an example all the same.

Temper-tantrum-throwing toddlers can't blow up half of Asia, and aren't going around throwing even weaker children in gulags to starve for a decade.

Yes, North Korea should be treated cautiously, and not hold their abilities to the same standards as, say, China or Russia. They're still a huge threat, and you do still have expectations for them. No nation on earth isn't going to have second thoughts about meeting with a foreign adversary for high-stakes talks when things have had an uptick in aggression to the point of singling out the VP & Sec State with mudslinging.

The same reason you wouldn't want Trump & Kim to meet earlier on when all the "dotard" and "little rocket man" stuff was flying around. It's just not a good time to bridge gaps. Take a breath, wait until things calm down, and pursue something then.

So, basically, they probably could have gone ahead and tried to make this work. Maybe even should have. But a delay also isn't some indefensible thing under the circumstances.

You'll be pleased to know they've got even more conciliatory with each other today and yesterday, both sides publically wanting to make something work whether it's in June or sometime after. The sky's not falling.

 

[Orba]

'Trump's son should be concerned': FBI obtained wiretaps of Putin ally who met with Trump Jr.

The FBI has obtained secret wiretaps collected by Spanish police of conversations involving Alexander Torshin, a deputy governor of Russia’s Central Bank who has forged close ties with U.S. lawmakers and the National Rifle Association, that led to a meeting with Donald Trump Jr. during the gun lobby’s annual convention in Louisville, Ky., in May 2016, a top Spanish prosecutor said Friday.

José Grinda, who has spearheaded investigations into Spanish organized crime, said that bureau officials in recent months requested and were provided transcripts of wiretapped conversations between Torshin and Alexander Romanov, a convicted Russian money launderer. On the wiretaps, Romanov refers to Torshin as “El Padrino,” the godfather.

“Just a few months ago, the wiretaps of these telephone conversations were given to the FBI,” Grinda said in response to a question from Yahoo News during a talk he gave at the Hudson Institute, a conservative think tank in Washington. Asked if he was concerned about Torshin’s meetings with Donald Trump Jr. and other American political figures, Grinda replied: “Mr. Trump’s son should be concerned.”

 

[Dr Lee]

Again, we see that Mueller is miles ahead of what we know about...makes me wonder what it is he's uncovered recently that's set Trump & Co off on their latest Obstruction of Justice SNAFU...

Also, what's happened to Nunes? not heard about him or from him in a while

 

[DJ_KiDDvIcIOUs]

*Laughs* Well, that's sure an example. A totally bat**** crazy one, but an example all the same.

Temper-tantrum-throwing toddlers can't blow up half of Asia, and aren't going around throwing even weaker children in gulags to starve for a decade.

Yes, North Korea should be treated cautiously, and not hold their abilities to the same standards as, say, China or Russia. They're still a huge threat, and you do still have expectations for them. No nation on earth isn't going to have second thoughts about meeting with a foreign adversary for high-stakes talks when things have had an uptick in aggression to the point of singling out the VP & Sec State with mudslinging.

The same reason you wouldn't want Trump & Kim to meet earlier on when all the "dotard" and "little rocket man" stuff was flying around. It's just not a good time to bridge gaps. Take a breath, wait until things calm down, and pursue something then.

So, basically, they probably could have gone ahead and tried to make this work. Maybe even should have. But a delay also isn't some indefensible thing under the circumstances.

You'll be pleased to know they've got even more conciliatory with each other today and yesterday, both sides publically wanting to make something work whether it's in June or sometime after. The sky's not falling.


Or, and call me crazy if you want, does it seem more prudent to be the voice of reason with the child letting them vent or do whatever they need to while firmly having them understand that behavior is unacceptable and if they want to play with the big boys then they have to follow the rules?

*Laughs* Jesus. Well, that's sure an example. A totally bat**** crazy one, but an example all the same.

Temper-tantrum-throwing toddlers can't blow up half of Asia, and aren't going around throwing even weaker children in gulags to starve for a decade.

Yes, North Korea should be treated cautiously, and not hold their abilities to the same standards as, say, China or Russia. They're still a huge threat, and you do still have expectations for them. No nation on earth isn't going to have second thoughts about meeting with a foreign adversary for high-stakes talks when things have had an uptick in aggression to the point of singling out the VP & Sec State with mudslinging.

The same reason you wouldn't want Trump & Kim to meet earlier on when all the "dotard" and "little rocket man" stuff was flying around. It's just not a good time to bridge gaps. Take a breath, wait until things calm down, and pursue something then.

So, basically, they probably could have gone ahead and tried to make this work. Maybe even should have. But a delay also isn't some indefensible thing under the circumstances.

You'll be pleased to know they've got even more conciliatory with each other today and yesterday, both sides publically wanting to make something work whether it's in June or sometime after. The sky's not falling.

This is quite the odd post, both essentially the same thing and within 1 minute of each other.

Anywho, things are pretty calm. Trump couldn't handle not receiving all the glory for the talks (commemorative coins anyone?) and did not like that they were still popping off at the mouth.

NK has their own people they have to be thinking about in regards to for propaganda purposes. Almost all of their bluster has no real world bearing on any other country.

Damn near every expert agrees that the only reason they are so willing to talk now is due to the fact that their last nuclear test most likely failed spectacularly killing the majority of their nuclear scientist while also crippling any hopes of having nuclear capability.

Add into the fact that Xi's secret visit shortly after more than likely entailed him telling Kim to play ball or he would put someone in charge who will because he no longer wants to deal with their BS seeing as how he is now China's president for life.

One would think getting them to the table to finally get all this behind the world would be a tad more important then getting into a pissing contest yet here we are.

 

[Aximili86]

The edit didn't work, seems it posted it twice. I didn't realize, no need to be a d*ck about it. I'll delete it now.

Also "things are pretty calm" is a good thing. How is that a bad thing for Trump? NK's had a markedly-different demeanor since the cancellation, rather than their usual defiant bluster. Seems that's a plus rather than a negative. Trump can be a slimey bastard of a person and not every little thing he ever does be the wrong thing, you know. That's how the middle of the country sees this stuff, life's not all political points.

 

[MaceB]

*Laughs* Jesus. Well, that's sure an example. A totally bat**** crazy one, but an example all the same.

Temper-tantrum-throwing toddlers can't blow up half of Asia, and aren't going around throwing even weaker children in gulags to starve for a decade.

I think you missed the point of the analogy. The point is this: we are the grown ups - let Kim bluster and kick his feet and wine all he wants... as long as he's coming to the table... he can act however he wants.

He's a child. We shouldn't expect decorum from a toddler nor North Korea. Let him crap himself in the backseat of the car and cry all he wants... as long as he's agreeing to clean up his room in exchange for ice cream... let him bluster. As long as the room gets cleaned, then that's all we care about.

 

[Aximili86]

Well, sure. Only that Trump's own bluster & posturing on this has yielded great momentum on this than anything the last three presidents managed to accomplish.

That's not to say the NK talks are going to pan out to the extent we want them to, that's all in the wind at the moment. But even getting them to the table is, objectively, moving the dial toward a solution more than his few predecessors. If "rocket man" dumb****ery is a part of that, then whatever. History won't care about that if it gets done, only if it doesn't.

 

[Sithborg]

Again, we see that Mueller is miles ahead of what we know about...makes me wonder what it is he's uncovered recently that's set Trump & Co off on their latest Obstruction of Justice SNAFU...

Also, what's happened to Nunes? not heard about him or from him in a while

You didn't hear about the clandestine meeting between him and the FBI and intelligence community over the many, many documents he has been asking for. That Kelley and Trump's new lawyer attended. And that Democrats had to force their way in. Essentially a way for them to find out what the case is being built to.

Though, ironically, Kelley and Flood didn't stay for it. And given Nunes' past behavior, he likely didn't read any of the documents he requested.

 

[MaceB]

Well, sure. Only that Trump's own bluster & posturing on this has yielded great momentum on this than anything the last three presidents managed to accomplish.

That's not to say the NK talks are going to pan out to the extent we want them to, that's all in the wind at the moment. But even getting them to the table is, objectively, moving the dial toward a solution more than his few predecessors. If "rocket man" dumb****ery is a part of that, then whatever. History won't care about that if it gets done, only if it doesn't.

Now, you're changing the issue.

Regarding Trump's value in this whole thing... I'm not convinced he's done anything really. I understand why Kim would want to negotiate with an impatient old man who thinks diplomats are a waste of time. I can see that... but should we really give credit to Trump for that? The ink is still wet, I don't think we can claim anything at this point. It's possible that going it alone and all this bluster will be given all the credit; it's possible that it'll turn out a lopsided deal that can't be verified. We shall see.
But it's important to note.... that even if Trump stumbles upon a success here, his foreign policy style can't be mimicked, AND it's just as likely to fail as to succeed. Maybe it'll work this time... but insulting foreign adversaries and bullying them into talks will not work all the time. It's not a reliable position.

 

[SV Fan]

Regarding Trump's value in this whole thing... I'm not convinced he's done anything really. I understand why Kim would want to negotiate with an impatient old man who thinks diplomats are a waste of time. I can see that... but should we really give credit to Trump for that? The ink is still wet, I don't think we can claim anything at this point. It's possible that going it alone and all this bluster will be given all the credit; it's possible that it'll turn out a lopsided deal that can't be verified. We shall see.
But it's important to note.... that even if Trump stumbles upon a success here, his foreign policy style can't be mimicked, AND it's just as likely to fail as to succeed. Maybe it'll work this time... but insulting foreign adversaries and bullying them into talks will not work all the time. It's not a reliable position.

My main beef with Trump and NK is the same people who cry about Iran are the same people praising Trump and NK. Personally I have 0 issues with what Trump is doing in regards to NK, I believe every 20 years or so you should give your political enemies a chance to prove they changed. This goes for Iran, and NK and Cuba.

It seems in the case of Trump and his supporters they have a hypocritical stance on this

 

[MaceB]

I'm totally down with the US meeting with Kim. I don't think it should be a deal over dinner, solidified by a handshake though. We have diplomatic procedures for a reason. We do this stuff cautiously for a reason. We demand verification for a reason. We work in coordination with our allies for a reason.

I'm grateful that Trump got Kim to the table, but I disagree with this "foreign policy on the fly" approach.

 

[Aximili86]

IWe have diplomatic procedures for a reason. We do this stuff cautiously for a reason.

Absolutely. But the diplomatic policy of strategic patience hasn't exactly panned out with NK so far in terms of stopping their nuke program progressing. Surely we can both agree with that.

And that doesn't mean that Trump's tack is better. It's just not necessarily worse on this issue alone, we'll have to see how it pans out. Trying something different though was probably warranted, given all the **** they were testing every-other-month there. At a certain point when they're that close to a functional reliable ICBM, you've gotta pivot and give something else a shot.

 

[MaceB]

I do disagree with that actually. NK has been contained for decades. Strategic patience has done very well for us. NK hasn't gotten a ballistic missile and they've been alienated from the world. We've weakened their reputation and their economy. It may not be as satisfying to drag it out, but deterrence and sanctions and international agreements work.

As a policy, Trump's tack absolutely is worse, because it's just as likely to fail as it is to succeed, and it can't be duplicated. Maybe it'll work out this time, but there's no indication that bullying is a reliable foreign policy strategy. I hope he gets a victory and North Korea cooperates, don't get me wrong, but I'm not going to give Trump credit for bullying a bully. Like I said, i don't agree with that approach. If anything, Moon should get the bulk of the credit; while Trump has been doing the dance in public, Moon has been arranging meetings, giving concessions, and talking with his enemies. He's the one who deserves the true credit IMO.

We're not cowboys, we are the Borg. You can't trick us, because we have an army of diplomats double-checking everything. You aren't going to outmaneuver us, because we take our time. We are the slow moving, but always progressing bureaucracy. We'll out wait you and out think you at every turn.

 

[Sithborg]

And again, N. Korea didn't have much to lose, since their nuke program has been set back for years.

 

[DJ_KiDDvIcIOUs]

The edit didn't work, seems it posted it twice. I didn't realize, no need to be a d*ck about it. I'll delete it now.

Also "things are pretty calm" is a good thing. How is that a bad thing for Trump? NK's had a markedly-different demeanor since the cancellation, rather than their usual defiant bluster. Seems that's a plus rather than a negative. Trump can be a slimey bastard of a person and not every little thing he ever does be the wrong thing, you know. That's how the middle of the country sees this stuff, life's not all political points.

Oh, I guess you didn't hear the news yet.

Korean leaders meet in surprise summit

Trump wanted to be a Hotshot baby about so they did it without him. Now we've yet again lessened America's foreign policy influence. Exactly what Putin an China want. Either Trump is too stupid to realize the actual costs of his "America First" policies or he's completely okay with selling out our country so he and his friends can get even richer.

This is exactly why Putin helped him win the election.

Now, you're changing the issue.

Regarding Trump's value in this whole thing... I'm not convinced he's done anything really. I understand why Kim would want to negotiate with an impatient old man who thinks diplomats are a waste of time. I can see that... but should we really give credit to Trump for that? The ink is still wet, I don't think we can claim anything at this point. It's possible that going it alone and all this bluster will be given all the credit; it's possible that it'll turn out a lopsided deal that can't be verified. We shall see.
But it's important to note.... that even if Trump stumbles upon a success here, his foreign policy style can't be mimicked, AND it's just as likely to fail as to succeed. Maybe it'll work this time... but insulting foreign adversaries and bullying them into talks will not work all the time. It's not a reliable position.

You are correct, see above. Trump has not only done nothing except try to take credit where it wasn't due, but now he also looks like an even bigger fool because they did it without him. I highly doubt he will learn any lessons from this.

My main beef with Trump and NK is the same people who cry about Iran are the same people praising Trump and NK. Personally I have 0 issues with what Trump is doing in regards to NK, I believe every 20 years or so you should give your political enemies a chance to prove they changed. This goes for Iran, and NK and Cuba.

It seems in the case of Trump and his supporters they have a hypocritical stance on this

The hilarious thing is a clip from Hannity about 7 or 8 years ago talking about Obama going to meet with NK which showed how bad he is at foreign policy and a clip from a few weeks ago praising Trump for being the mastermind to make peace with them now. He couldn't even do the right thing with his Faux & Friends cheering him in the right direction.

 

[SV Fan]

Donald J. Trump
Verified account

@realDonaldTrump
3h3 hours ago

Put pressure on the Democrats to end the horrible law that separates children from there parents once they cross the Border into the U.S. Catch and Release, Lottery and Chain must also go with it and we MUST continue building the WALL! DEMOCRATS ARE PROTECTING MS-13 THUGS.

it should be noted this law is an executive order he signed.

 

[MaceB]

I would like to think that Americans aren't dumb enough to fall for this kind of obvious gamesmanship, but....

 

[Lily Adler]

I believe his base will think it's true.

 

[Dr Lee]

I believe his base will think it's true.

the hardcore MAGA cultists will sadly....they don't have the intelligence to realize they're being conned and lied to on a daily basis

 

[Lily Adler]

Donald Trump Jr. Claims Social Media Conservative Conspiracy Theory

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/poli...w-ban-on-instagram/ar-AAxP2qW?ocid=spartanntp

 

[chamber-music]

And again, N. Korea didn't have much to lose, since their nuke program has been set back for years.

Yep.

Kim tossed everything he could at North Korea's nuclear/missile ambitions and failed.

Make no mistake, Kim Jong Un is coming to the negotiating table because he is low on options rather than because he had a sudden change of heart about foreign relations.

 

[Aximili86]

NK hasn't gotten a ballistic missile and they've been alienated from the world.

Uhm, wait, what?

You do know they have a lot of functional ballistic missiles, right? Short-and-mid range basically reliable and semi-equivalent to the west's. It's the long-range ICBMs they're figuring out now, and they've tested quite a few. How reliable those are currently, we don't really know.

But they have the nukes, they have the missiles. The thing the west's not 100% sure on is if they've managed to scale down their nukes enough to fit on their ballistic missiles, not whether or not they have ballistic missiles. They do, and the mastery of that science has been escalating more quickly in recent years.

They're isolated economically, absolutely (aside from the Chinese handouts, which have seemed to be stopped or at least minimized over this last year from what they were previously). But being isolated doesn't mean a whole lot when you don't give a **** if your people can put food on the table, you're just throwing a majority of the cash you do have into the military.

So, no, strategic patience, while noble, hadn't worked in terms of blunting their missile program before they got too close to a working ICBM. They have the mid-range ballistics now, and they've tested long-range ICBMs. We just don't know how successful those missiles would be if they actually did something stupid like land one in the Pacific off the U.S or Canada rather than off their own coast. And we're not sure whether their nukes are currently able to fit on one.

But they're right on the brink, both sides of politics agree on that, that's how the Obama administration saw it. A year, two tops, the way things are going, they'll be there.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I believe his base will think it's true.

Which is exactly why he lies all the time and it doesn't matter.