Well, I've read The Silmarillion at least 20 times (that's conservative), LotR WAY more than that (I used it to cure myself of insomnia, but that's another story), Unfinished Tales several times, the entirety of 12 volumes of The History of Middle Earth once (some of the volumes more), and everything else except the recent release and I can only say that if they did that with an eye to creating an accurate reflection of the 2nd age, I don't think they did a very good job. They may have a commercial success on their hands (I think they do), but that's another story. I get that the commercial success is important and I don't have a problem with that. I just think you can do both.Me too, haha! But it's a good discussion and I have a lot of respect for everyone's perspectives on this. Unfortunately LOTR reddit is a mess right now with just an overflow of people who either want to troll, or attack each other for disagreeing, or who don't know what they are talking about but want to act like they do because they think Peter Jackson wrote the Bible on Middle Earth, or they don't want to hear anything negative about the show, or don't want to hear anything positive about the show, or who are bigots, etc. And even the threads that haven't devolved, there are just too many posts to keep up with, the subs are overridden. So it's great to have a more focused, contained discussion here in good faith.
As an addendum, in Unfinished Tales Tolkien wrote "[Galadriel] deemed it her duty to remain in Middle-earth while Sauron was still unconquered.” (2.04.01.019)
To prepare for making this show, the showrunners said they read/reread basically every Tolkien text and letter about Middle Earth even though they don't have rights to many of them. They made particular note of The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales. So obviously some of these texts have informed them while they can't be officially informed them from a rights perspective and have to write around or indirectly about a lot of this stuff in the show. It's a weird situation, no doubt, so I am trying to look at it from a more removed view and just enjoy whatever the heck it is we do get. It might end up resembling Tolkien more or resembling it less by the time it has finished.
Our bookshelves look very similar, so I totally grok this view. It’s not that different from my own. I suppose where we differ, if we differ at all, is that I see JRRT’s work as the ultimate rejection of the whole concept of “canon.” He never stopped writing and changing Middle Earth. From the Lost Tales to the last months of his life tweaking Galadriel’s story, it constantly evolved. What we have in LOTR and the Silmarillion is just a snapshot of where he was in its sub-creation (as he might have put it) at the time and it changed even after that was published. There are early works that portray dragons as armored personnel carriers and imply Numonrean battleships and dirigibles, and later attempts to completely rewrite the “flat earth” mythos because everyone know we live on a globe now. If he’d had the lifespan of Elros, would JRRT have ever written a warrior Galadriel? I can’t say no to that. I’m content to let it play out and figure out what he might or might not have kept later.Well, I've read The Silmarillion at least 20 times (that's conservative), LotR WAY more than that (I used it to cure myself of insomnia, but that's another story), Unfinished Tales several times, the entirety of 12 volumes of The History of Middle Earth once (some of the volumes more), and everything else except the recent release and I can only say that if they did that with an eye to creating an accurate reflection of the 2nd age, I don't think they did a very good job. They may have a commercial success on their hands (I think they do), but that's another story. I get that the commercial success is important and I don't have a problem with that. I just think you can do both.
Given that Tolkien's view of Middle Earth evolved, we will always be able to pick out a statement here or there that supports a given opinion, but when I look at it, I think in terms of the preponderance of evidence and that indicates non-warrior Galadriel and a character more in the "Melian Light" category. Now, a LOT of what I think comes from The Silmarillion and that was put together by Christopher and not directly by the author, but answer me this....."Who knew more about JRR's take on the characters? Him or us?" From that perspective, I'll take Christopher's opinion over virtually anyone's and call the text of The Silmarillion canon.If you do that, I think you can understand why I don't see this show as Tolkien's 2nd age.
Man.....I gotta stop this S***, but it's hard for someone who loves his writings....oh well.
An interesting way of looking at it. At the time of JRRs death, The Silmarillion had yet to be published and was a work in progress to finish. What Christopher did was to take his father's writings and put them in a coherent, consistent form that encompassed his father's overall intent.Our bookshelves look very similar, so I totally grok this view. It’s not that different from my own. I suppose where we differ, if we differ at all, is that I see JRRT’s work as the ultimate rejection of the whole concept of “canon.” He never stopped writing and changing Middle Earth. From the Lost Tales to the last months of his life tweaking Galadriel’s story, it constantly evolved. What we have in LOTR and the Silmarillion is just a snapshot of where he was in its sub-creation (as he might have put it) at the time and it changed even after that was published. There are early works that portray dragons as armored personnel carriers and imply Numonrean battleships and dirigibles, and later attempts to completely rewrite the “flat earth” mythos because everyone know we live on a globe now. If he’d had the lifespan of Elros, would JRRT have ever written a warrior Galadriel? I can’t say no to that. I’m content to let it play out and figure out what he might or might not have kept later.
I‘m onl dissapointed by one thing: that this giant dark fortress from the trailer wasn’t Tol Sirion but most likely Angband.
I was hoping we‘ll see Galadriel finding the body in the fortress guarded by werwolves and vampires.
But they of course don’t have the rights for that.
Angband was also cool.
Luthien and Huan.so who found Finrod in the book then?
I‘m onl dissapointed by one thing: that this giant dark fortress from the trailer wasn’t Tol Sirion but most likely Angband.
I was hoping we‘ll see Galadriel finding the body in the fortress guarded by werwolves and vampires.
But they of course don’t have the rights for that.
Angband was also cool.
No, definitely not Angband, that's wiped out beneath the ocean at this point. They couldn't say the name but I believe it was supposed to be remains of Morgoth's first fortress, Utumno, which would have been roughly where they were in the Forodwaith.
It's implied, but not specifically stated, that the sinking of Beleriand took place "after" the defeat of Morgoth in the War of Wrath. All the pits of his realm were unroofed upon the victory of the Hosts of the Valar. That doesn't make much sense if it had already sunk. This is discussed in the (last) chapter of The Silmarillion "Of the Voyage of Earendil".Yes, but it was partly described as the Valar unearthing it and hunting down Morgoth in the deepest pit, so one could easily view this as being part of what was left behind.
That said, yes, it could also just be a lesser stronghold that was close to Utumno.
Sure. I mean, they've made up a lot of things that didn't exist in the books so there's no reason it can't be Utumno or whatever. It's just another book contradiction.....by the way, that was a smart addition made by whatever mod or admin.I guess I am not sure how that has anything to do with whether we can pretend this is a part of Utumno or not?
Like you said, considering it an Utumno-adjacent stronghold works just as well. Love the deep cut of having the Elves in the Forodwaith looking for a place like this.