MCU Fight: Thor Vs. Vision

[jaqua99]

We actually never see Hela loses consciousness in Thor: Ragnarok. Only evidence of that is an something from the script, which was never specifically shown. Further, Thor himself said it did nothing to her. So within the MCU itself, no evidence Hela actually was unconscious.

It said it in a book or something too, didnt it? Some comic or book version of the movie stating she was KO'd

Even if it did KO her for a minute or two...or 30 seconds (which is possible since she was gone for a few minutes), it still had no effect on her. KO'ing her for 30 seconds or a minute not a win, and all it did was buy Thor like 5 minutes of time.

 

[DrCosmic]

You explain it by acknowledging Thor's lightning did NOT bring Vision to life.

The casket brought him to life. That was the plan. To give the machine the power needed to give birth to Vision.

His lightning provided the casket with the power needed to bring Vision to life.

The casket brought him to life...Thor powered the casket. Thor did not power Vision. He was merely the powersource for the device that brought him to life. Suggesting otherwise is seemingly incorrect

And the electric arrow arguement used against Thor's lightning doesn't make sense. It doesn't matter...his electric arrows slowed Vision down. It doesn't matter why the writers did that..its canon, it happened. It has an effect on him unless there is a future deliberate retcon.

Yes, it's sustained tiny electric charges that slowed Vision down, but even that doesn't have close to e
The energy output of Thor's lightning...which was magical in nature, and (make note of this) was powerful enough to KO (although briefly) a transcendent character in Hela

Vision is not going to be unaffected by Thor's lightning like that. Not a chance. Vision isnt OP. We've seen him pass out. Furthermore, his brain is synthetic, and he has never been hit as hard as Thor's lightning charged fists. Not even remotely close. Who's to say that with enough concussive force, that synthetic brain wont get rattled around and have an impact on Vision? Thats hard to say.

When have we seen Vision pass out?

Again, vibranium durability feats count for Vision, because we know what material he's made of. It is the idea that Thor has the power output to 'rattle' or 'KO' vibranium, that is the part that is pure speculation, and is not supported by his previous bouts with Vibranium.

There's no doubt that Vision will be slowed down as long as Thor's lightning is on him. He may even be very uncomfortable, but if he's going to be 'injured' then that means something that is made of vibranium has to break, and nothing in the MCU has shown that kind of power. Cap No Sold Avengers Thor's strike with an inch of Vibranium. Is Post Ragnarok Thor several orders of magnitude more powerful?

Good point though on that it was the casket that was powered, but... how could the casket use that electricity to bring Vision to life without putting that electricity into him?

You do ask a good question about his abilities, but we do see him gain the durability needed to crash through many floors and no sell a flying bus, which means puts him well above Thor's feats. Then we see him use that same density manipulation to phase into and attack Ultron bots. Now, there's little thought that Thor would come apart as easily as they do, however that is an attack that Thor has no way to block.

Additionally, we see in his fight with Hawkeye that Vision's martial skill and phasing reflexes are nearly on par with world class fighter Clint Barton. So a fight with Thor would likely have exchanges rather than an instant KO, one way or the other.

 

[jaqua99]

When have we seen Vision pass out?

Again, vibranium durability feats count for Vision, because we know what material he's made of. It is the idea that Thor has the power output to 'rattle' or 'KO' vibranium, that is the part that is pure speculation, and is not supported by his previous bouts with Vibranium.

There's no doubt that Vision will be slowed down as long as Thor's lightning is on him. He may even be very uncomfortable, but if he's going to be 'injured' then that means something that is made of vibranium has to break, and nothing in the MCU has shown that kind of power. Cap No Sold Avengers Thor's strike with an inch of Vibranium. Is Post Ragnarok Thor several orders of magnitude more powerful?

Good point though on that it was the casket that was powered, but... how could the casket use that electricity to bring Vision to life without putting that electricity into him?

You do ask a good question about his abilities, but we do see him gain the durability needed to crash through many floors and no sell a flying bus, which means puts him well above Thor's feats. Then we see him use that same density manipulation to phase into and attack Ultron bots. Now, there's little thought that Thor would come apart as easily as they do, however that is an attack that Thor has no way to block.

Additionally, we see in his fight with Hawkeye that Vision's martial skill and phasing reflexes are nearly on par with world class fighter Clint Barton. So a fight with Thor would likely have exchanges rather than an instant KO, one way or the other.

What I'm saying is, how do we know Vision's head won't move? Vibranium is light..it's not like Vision will be still like a statue when Thor hits him. His hits wont damage the vibranium but if he hits him hard enough to where there he moves Vision's head, it's possible that synthetic brain could be bouncing around.

Of course they'd fight for a while. But what can Vision do to Thor?

Vision went unconcious when he locked Ultron out of the net. It wasn't from force. But I assume it was due to some sort of overload in that synthetic brain, which suggests Vision can lose consciousness.

True about the density...but I wouldnt exactly put no selling a bus and falling through those floors above Thor's durability feats.

Objectively and based on feats, they seemingly cant do much to each other. I just give it to Thor because he has more feats, and better feats and more consistent showings.

 

[Spider-Fan]

It said it in a book or something too, didnt it? Some comic or book version of the movie stating she was KO'd

Even if it did KO her for a minute or two...or 30 seconds (which is possible since she was gone for a few minutes), it still had no effect on her. KO'ing her for 30 seconds or a minute not a win, and all it did was buy Thor like 5 minutes of time.

Books =/= cannon. Only thing that matters is what we see on the screen, and there is no evidence she was ever unconscious.

 

[jaqua99]

Books =/= cannon. Only thing that matters is what we see on the screen, and there is no evidence she was ever unconscious.

That's fair. But what we saw on screen also was that Hawkeye's electric arrows restrained Vision and there is no evidence that Thor's lightning is ineffective, as the "bringing him to life" thing didn't really happen.

But ultimately this is gonna just go back and forth with the three of us validating our arguements until we get bored haha.

So thanks for the enthusiasm for the game, and I love to see that you guys are putting thought into this



Same goes to you Dr.Cosmic!

 

[BigThor]

Books =/= cannon. Only thing that matters is what we see on the screen, and there is no evidence she was ever unconscious.

You could clearly see her falling unconscious from the balcony after Thor's giant lightning bolt. Her eyes were closed and her body was limp, she was definitely unconscious go look at the film.

 

[Spider-Fan]

You could clearly see her falling unconscious from the balcony after Thor's giant lightning bolt. Her eyes were closed and her body was limp, she was definitely unconscious go look at the film.

Her body would be limp in a fall like that because she cannot fly. Still means nothing.

 

[BigThor]

Her body would be limp in a fall like that because she cannot fly. Still means nothing.

Not being able to fly has nothing to do with your body being limp, not to mention that her eyes were closed and she did nothing to stop or brace her fall.

You do remember that she can glide and hover right? She could've flipped mid fall and slowed her fall while landing her feet like she did when Thor tossed her on the rainbrow bridge.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Not being able to fly has nothing to do with your body being limp, not to mention that her eyes were closed and she did nothing to stop or brace her fall.

You do remember that she can glide and hover right? She could've flipped mid fall and slowed her fall while landing her feet like she did when Thor tossed her on the rainbrow bridge.

Where was that shown in the movie? I cannot think of a single instance of this. It is much harder to brace yourself in a fall when you start the fall off balance.

But again, this is not really evidence for me she was unconscious.

 

[BigThor]

To put it bluntly, Vision has withstood being made out of vibranium.

Vision isn't made completely out of vibranium like Ultron Prime, his body is laced with vibranium similar to Black Panther's suit.

Everyone is forgetting in AOU Thor was the only Avenger powerful enough to crack the vibranium core of Ultron's gravity device. So vibranium is not completely unbreakable, Thor has already broke it and is the only MCU character to do so.

 

[BigThor]

Where was that shown in the movie? I cannot think of a single instance of this. It is much harder to brace yourself in a fall when you start the fall off balance.

But again, this is not really evidence for me she was unconscious.

1:07 secs, while she didn't glide for a long period of time she did it enough to land feet first.

[YT]JSJbF3Zz_Os[/YT]


Not to mention her balance, body control, and coordination in her battle against Asgard. I have a hard time believing she would just let herself crash into the ground without trying to right herself. It's wouldn't even be in character for her to do that.

[YT]Kuh2DE-vEso[/YT]

 

[Mjölnir]

Her body would be limp in a fall like that because she cannot fly. Still means nothing.

Hela is really gracious so she'd poise her body to land on her feet, instead of falling motionless to land on her back. Anyone that falls tries to move in order to maneuver to a better position, even us normal mortals.

So I'd say that her falling motionless is a clear indication, and then the script gives us the intended interpretation. Her being out of the action for a while is another indication.

 

[Thör-El]

Thor is the king of Powerhouse tier imo.

He got a few votes for transcendent tier in his last fight too, but I dont know about that one

Really it depends where you want to draw the line between tiers but with the line where it is at the moment (below Fenris) yeah I'd argue he's transcendent.

Obviously we've seen firsthand that Hela's above Thor but she's also above Ronan, Ultron, Kurse and Fenris so that doesn't rule out Thor being lower in the same league. Plus Thor's "biggest lightning blast in the history of lightning" at the very least stunned/ragdolled her and left her out of the fight for a few minutes which isn't nothing.

I think Thor and Hulk are both above Fenris but that's maybe more of an argument for moving Fenris down a tier.

After Ragnarok I think Thor could take a majority against Kurse and Ultron Prime if he fought using skill/lightning rather than trying to brawl and letting them get in close and use their strength advantage like he did in TDW/AoU. At the very least they would be much closer fights.

Ronan with the Power Stone's an odd one, he seemed confident he could destroy Xandar/defeat Thanos and his durability was impressive but besides killing Thanos messenger and curbstomping Drax he's lacking in feats. We saw that destroying his hammer was a fairly easy way to take the stone from him. I don't think we've seen enough to say he's a tier above Malekith with the Reality Stone who was supposedly going to destroy the universe but in practice fought fairly evenly with Thor.

Vision isn't made completely out of vibranium like Ultron Prime, his body is laced with vibranium similar to Black Panther's suit.

Everyone is forgetting in AOU Thor was the only Avenger powerful enough to crack the vibranium core of Ultron's gravity device. So vibranium is not completely unbreakable, Thor has already broke it and is the only MCU character to do so.

Plus Thor's lightning, Iron Man's repulsors and Vision's mind gem blasts together were melting Ultron's vibranium shell in Age of Ultron.
Presumably Cap's shield/Vision's vibranium have the same melting point and I wouldn't rule out a far more powerful lightning storm being enough on its own.

 

[VictusMortuus]

If Thor is able to create an electrical force field around himself that would prevent Vision from trying any phasing attacks on him and I've no doubt Thor is substantially stronger than Vision so he would win with that. Also is Thor ; like Hulk; too dense for Vision to phase through? We definitely know Thor is a much more skilled fighter so I think Thor takes this and takes it with relative ease.

 

[CoherentChaos]

If Thor is able to create an electrical force field around himself that would prevent Vision from trying any phasing attacks on him and I've no doubt Thor is substantially stronger than Vision so he would win with that. Also is Thor ; like Hulk; too dense for Vision to phase through? We definitely know Thor is a much more skilled fighter so I think Thor takes this and takes it with relative ease.

Well my personal headcanon is that, based on actual physiology, and even cases in the MCU itself (if you consider Netflix canon to the whole) is that indestructibility on a surface level is useless. Luke Cage almost died from a concussion and internal hemmorage because a point blank shotgun blast rattled his brain. Concussive force is nothing to write off. Sure, being stabbed by adamantium claws is viscerally and very visibly unhealthy but so is being hit in the face by a being that creates shockwaves with their punches.

So Thor and Hulk, to be as durable as they are, are definitely nearly invincible inside and out, or else Thor would have liquified his organs a hundred times over and Hulk would break his legs by simply super jumping. So the whole "Vision can just phase into them" argument is kind of flimsy to me, just like the "Ant-Man can just enter them and then go giant to explode them" is. Got to try harder than that to grant an instant kill move.

Beings like Thor and Hulk have a certain damage threshold across their entire body and I'm not entirely convinced that Vision or Ant-Man have enough power to overwhelm, or even if they could the damage wouldn't be as severe as it would if they did it to Cap or Widow. Maybe Hulk's brain gets partially messed up but maybe Vision also ends up severing his own arm on a molecular level when he goes back to solid, because something's got to give and Hulk's insides aren't going to give that easily. Maybe Thor's jaw gets a little sore when Scott goes giant in his mouth, but the worst thing that happens to him (aside from resulting mental trauma) is that he's puking out blood and gore and bones, none of which belonging to Thor himself.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Do you have any idea how indestructible Vision's insides have to be in order to crush himself down like 20 floors? Vision can control his molecular density, both inside AND out. His insides are every bit as strong as his exterior.

 

[BigThor]

Do you have any idea how indestructible Vision's insides have to be in order to crush himself down like 20 floors? Vision can control his molecular density, both inside AND out. His insides are every bit as strong as his exterior.

They definitely are, I agree I can't wait to see Vision's power displays in Infinity War.

 

[Docker2.0]

Thor. Tough fight but I get the feeling his lightning will be the difference.

 

[Spider-Fan]

That's fair. But what we saw on screen also was that Hawkeye's electric arrows restrained Vision and there is no evidence that Thor's lightning is ineffective, as the "bringing him to life" thing didn't really happen.

But ultimately this is gonna just go back and forth with the three of us validating our arguements until we get bored haha.

So thanks for the enthusiasm for the game, and I love to see that you guys are putting thought into this

No prob amigo, this is a fun game

They definitely are, I agree I can't wait to see Vision's power displays in Infinity War.

Same. I want to see him just go all out and show what he is capable of!

 

[BigThor]

Same. I want to see him just go all out and show what he is capable of!

I wish Vision was in Ragnarok with Thor and Hulk because he wasn't used to his full potential in Civil War.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I wish Vision was in Ragnarok with Thor and Hulk because he wasn't used to his full potential in Civil War.

Captain America: Civil War is probably my 2nd favorite MCU film overall. But, that is the one issue I have with the film. It felt like they didn't know what to do with Vision. At least not when he was in a scene about anything other than his relationship with Wanda.

 

[Thör-El]

I wish Vision was in Ragnarok with Thor and Hulk because he wasn't used to his full potential in Civil War.

Let's see....

Hydra attack Lagos - Vision's conveniently absent from a fight he could've won without any drama.

Avengers HQ - In the space of a couple of minutes we learn he's weak to electricity and to Wanda manipulating the mind gem.

Airport Battle - Vision mostly holds back because he's too overpowered. Steps in for a minute to even the odds against Giant Man but then messes up and shoots down War Machine/lets Cap & Bucky get away.

Siberia - Again, Vision could have broke up the Cap vs Iron Man fight and easily caught Zemo so the writers leave him out.

Damn, you're right, not a great film for Vision. I don't think adding him to Ragnarok would've worked well either though.

 

[Mjölnir]

Let's see....

Hydra attack Lagos - Vision's conveniently absent from a fight he could've won without any drama.

Avengers HQ - In the space of a couple of minutes we learn he's weak to electricity and to Wanda manipulating the mind gem.

Airport Battle - Vision mostly holds back because he's too overpowered. Steps in for a minute to even the odds against Giant Man but then messes up and shoots down War Machine/lets Cap & Bucky get away.

Siberia - Again, Vision could have broke up the Cap vs Iron Man fight and easily caught Zemo so the writers leave him out.

Damn, you're right, not a great film for Vision. I don't think adding him to Ragnarok would've worked well either though.

I don't really think the parts where he's left out matter much since those cases have plenty of heroes left out. I also think it's quite fitting for Vision to not be interested in fighting any of the other Avengers unless absolutely necessary.

I agree that it does leave things lacking in terms of showing his power. It is a Captain America film though and not really an environment suited for such a powerful character to go all out. I think his role made decent sense and he'll probably be showing more in Infinity War.

 

[BigThor]

Damn, you're right, not a great film for Vision. I don't think adding him to Ragnarok would've worked well either though.

Why not?

He clearly would've fit in better and wouldn't have had to be toned down orrandomly absent from fight scenes.

 

[jaqua99]

BT, I think they meant it would be hard writing the character in