Part VI (Spoiler Thread)

Obi-Wan: "Kill him, Luke. Kill him now. DO IT!!!"

#TheJediWay
Honestly, it seems to me like you enjoy reading lore and listening to what George Lucas says more than you actually do watching the films.

And that's absolutely fine. You do you.
But Obi-Wan wants Luke to kill Vader. It's very clearly stated in the films. You making hashtags and spouting nonsense isn't going to change that.

Edit: Or at the very least, be ready to kill his father, if it comes to it. And now I've stretched myself to meet you halfway.
 
When Obi-Wan says that Luke must face Darth Vader again, Obi-Wan doesn't mention killing. I think this isn't even about stopping or redeeming Vader/Anakin, it's about how Luke's experience on Cloud City will make him ineffective as a Jedi if he doesn't confront the source of his pain and fear.

Obi-Wan knows how dangerous it is to be anywhere near Vader, and that Luke must be ready to fight and kill Vader even though Vader's death isn't the goal of the confrontation. The conversation could have gone something like this:
There's no point in discussing the issue with the poster in question. He literally believes that Obi-Wan wanted Luke to kill his father. it's both absurd and hilarious considering he touts himself as a Star Wars master yet has little to no idea of what the Jedi code entails.

He also thinks George Lucas is wrong (LMAO)
 
When Obi-Wan says that Luke must face Darth Vader again, Obi-Wan doesn't mention killing. I think this isn't even about stopping or redeeming Vader/Anakin, it's about how Luke's experience on Cloud City will make him ineffective as a Jedi if he doesn't confront the source of his pain and fear.

Obi-Wan knows how dangerous it is to be anywhere near Vader, and that Luke must be ready to fight and kill Vader even though Vader's death isn't the goal of the confrontation. The conversation could have gone something like this:
The goal is the destruction of the Sith. Obi-Wan doesn't need to mention killing. Luke does, and he doesn't tell him no. He reinforces the idea that that is what Luke must do. What you just wrote is not informed by Obi-Wan's words. He believes Anakin dead. Luke realizes that isn't the case, because his father reached out to him through the force, and he felt the good.

One of the big errors is arguing he doesn't want Luke to kill him, is you have to ignore that Obi-Wan lied to Luke. He didn't want him to know Vader was his dad.
 
There's no point in discussing the issue with the poster in question. He literally believes that Obi-Wan wanted Luke to kill his father. it's both absurd and hilarious considering he touts himself as a Star Wars master yet has little to no idea of what the Jedi code entails.

He also thinks George Lucas is wrong (LMAO)
Yes. Like multiple posters here. That you think this is an odd theory in the Star Wars community, is strange to me, no doubt. I continually show the text to prove my point, but you ignore it, which leads me to believe you cannot refute my argument. It's the same with the constant insults.

If Lucas was infallible why was the film ever named Revenge of the Jedi? Why did Luke make out with Leia? Why did he need to be reminded that Obi-Wan needed to claim Anakin's laser sword in RotS? Why did Boba's origin as a Mando change multiple times? Why has he constantly changed his films, including changing the context of Han and Greedo's meeting? More over, if you believe what Lucas says/writes, why are you ignoring how many good and proper Jedi go about killing folk in Star Wars, even if it's not the "Jedi Way"? And if Obi-Wan is one of those "bad Jedi", why do you continue to argue that he's telling Luke to do the "correct" thing, when he spent so long doing the incorrect thing, including after this show, where we know he kills Maul? He also helps guide Luke to blow up the Death Star, killing tens of thousands. An anti-Jedi move according to you.
 
Yes. Like multiple posters here. That you think this is an odd theory in the Star Wars community, is strange to me, no doubt. I continually show the text to prove my point, but you ignore it, which leads me to believe you cannot refute my argument. It's the same with the constant insults.

If Lucas was infallible why was the film ever named Revenge of the Jedi? Why did Luke make out with Leia? Why did he need to be reminded that Obi-Wan needed to claim Anakin's laser sword in RotS? Why did Boba's origin as a Mando change multiple times? Why has he constantly changed his films, including changing the context of Han and Greedo's meeting? More over, if you believe what Lucas says/writes, why are you ignoring how many good and proper Jedi go about killing folk in Star Wars, even if it's not the "Jedi Way"? And if Obi-Wan is one of those "bad Jedi", why do you continue to argue that he's telling Luke to do the "correct" thing, when he spent so long doing the incorrect thing, including after this show, where we know he kills Maul? He also helps guide Luke to blow up the Death Star, killing tens of thousands. An anti-Jedi move according to you.
I don't need to insult you. I'm just clarifying your inability to accept that you don't get the Jedi. You probably would have liked for Windu to execute Palpatine if you didn't already know Palpatine survived the PT. You probably enjoyed Anakin executing Dooku. You think the Jedi are badass warriors who take out the bad guys and win the day.

They're not. That hubris demonstrated in the PT that you probably loved so much is exactly why they all had to die. The Force enacted correction to their misguided ways and gave the Sith dominion for 20 years until balance was finally achieved via The Chosen One.

You have much to learn regarding Star Wars and you won't learn it here on this forum. You're demonstrating great resistance to your overall ideology on the Jedi being completely wrong and far from what the creator intended. A creator you don't even care to listen to.
 
Its obvious Obi wants Luke to kill Vader. Obi is human, and we dont need to pretend he is an infallible paragon of good above killing. He has human emotions and he has justifiable reasons to want Vader dead. He very clearly says the emperor has already won immediately after Luke says he can't kill his father.

Unless Johnny isn't fluent in english he knows Obi believed killing Vader was the only way to victory based on the dialogue in that scene. Johnny is trolling.
 
I love Star Wars. I really do. My favourite film franchise of all time, despite having huge issues with a lot of the films.

But I absolutely loathe Star Wars "lore". This over explanation of every single little thing that exists in the Star Wars universe. Codes, and rules, and blah blah blah.

And observing this person telling people that what happened in the film, didn't happen, and that they don't know what Star Wars is, because of some sort of lore jedi code that has never appeared in any of the films, just makes me hate it even more.
 
I don't need to insult you. I'm just clarifying your inability to accept that you don't get the Jedi. You probably would have liked for Windu to execute Palpatine if you didn't already know Palpatine survived the PT. You probably enjoyed Anakin executing Dooku. You think the Jedi are badass warriors who take out the bad guys and win the day.
Windu executing the Sith lord would have resulted in there being no Empire. Of course I would have wanted him to do it. Anakin "saving" Palpatine, results in Order 66 and the oppression and death of countless planets and people.

I did enjoy Anakin executing Dooku. Watching Anakin fall to the dark side is a big part of the prequel era.

I do think Jedi are badass warriors. They're wizard samurai after all.

They're not. That hubris demonstrated in the PT that you probably loved so much is exactly why they all had to die. The Force enacted correction to their misguided ways and gave the Sith dominion for 20 years until balance was finally achieved via The Chosen One.
I like how you take any credit away from Sheev or Anakin there, and ignore why Anakin falls to the dark side. As Lucas had Anakin put it, "I'm not the Jedi I should be".

You have much to learn regarding Star Wars and you won't learn it here on this forum. You're demonstrating great resistance to your overall ideology on the Jedi being completely wrong and far from what the creator intended. A creator you don't even care to listen to.
If Lucas was infallible why was the film ever named Revenge of the Jedi? Why did Luke make out with Leia? Why did he need to be reminded that Obi-Wan needed to claim Anakin's laser sword in RotS? Why did Boba's origin as a Mando change multiple times? Why has he constantly changed his films, including changing the context of Han and Greedo's meeting? More over, if you believe what Lucas says/writes, why are you ignoring how many good and proper Jedi go about killing folk in Star Wars, even if it's not the "Jedi Way"? And if Obi-Wan is one of those "bad Jedi", why do you continue to argue that he's telling Luke to do the "correct" thing, when he spent so long doing the incorrect thing, including after this show, where we know he kills Maul? He also helps guide Luke to blow up the Death Star, killing tens of thousands. An anti-Jedi move according to you.
 
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And NOW you're describing a Jedi advising another Jedi.

Well done.
Do you read what you write? You say Jedi don't kill. You do understand what that means, right? You said you're from Denver, implying that English is your first language.

According to Yoda, there is only one Jedi in that scene.
 
of course I would have enjoyed Windu executing Palpatine.

I did enjoy Anakin executing Dooku.

I do think Jedi are badass warriors. They're wizard samurai after all.

Yep. You don't get the Jedi at all. And I know if Pablo Hidalgo or Dave Filoni or Jon Favreau or George Lucas said that to you YOU WOULD STILL argue that they're wrong and you're right.
 
So is this still a discussion about this episode, or Return of the Jedi, because I sure as hell can't tell anymore.
 
So is this still a discussion about this episode, or Return of the Jedi, because I sure as hell can't tell anymore.
It's about how episode 6 informs the OT, including episode 6 (punny). Where Obi-Wan definitely wants Luke to kill Vader, but refuses to do so here. Refuses to even take him prisoner, instead leaving him to continue his reign of terror.
 
Flick issued yall a warning earlier. Listen to it. Probation will be dealt out for ignoring it
Might get probation for asking this, but I thought that warning was about gatekeeping, not about discussing...
 
Buddy boy, you don't understand the Jedi. You act like you do but you don't.

The Jedi are not behaving like Jedi in the PT. They're acting like soldiers. They're executing people. This is why The Force wants them gone. This is why The Force allows for Palpatine to win. The Jedi had to go. Anakin detected this. It's part of why he had such contempt for them.

Killing is NOT The Jedi way.

Jedi Master Porter Engel. The Blade of Bardotta. Sure sounds like he had a past as a warrior.

Yeah, the Jedi are not what the Jedi should be in the PT. That is sort of the point, imo. But that has more to do with how they have withdrawn and become an arm of the Republic government, rather than an Order that is out among the galaxy, helping those how need help, regardless of a government remit or not.

The entire existence of the lightsaber and training to use indicates that they are trained as warriors.

My view on why Obi-wan didn't kill Vader is that it relates to what he told Cube Jr. Obi-wan killing Vader would eliminate Vader, sure. A problem, yes. But there will be a replacement. Killing Vader at that moment doesn't fix anything. You need a new generation of heroes, of leaders, to fight back. Just killing Vader at that moment doesn't solve anything. At the time of ROTJ, the calculus has changed. Killing Vader then, and the Emperor then, will lead to change, and even greater victory.
 
Jedi Master Porter Engel. The Blade of Bardotta. Sure sounds like he had a past as a warrior.

Yeah, the Jedi are not what the Jedi should be in the PT. That is sort of the point, imo. But that has more to do with how they have withdrawn and become an arm of the Republic government, rather than an Order that is out among the galaxy, helping those how need help, regardless of a government remit or not.

The entire existence of the lightsaber and training to use indicates that they are trained as warriors.

My view on why Obi-wan didn't kill Vader is that it relates to what he told Cube Jr. Obi-wan killing Vader would eliminate Vader, sure. A problem, yes. But there will be a replacement. Killing Vader at that moment doesn't fix anything. You need a new generation of heroes, of leaders, to fight back. Just killing Vader at that moment doesn't solve anything. At the time of ROTJ, the calculus has changed. Killing Vader then, and the Emperor then, will lead to change, and even greater victory.
Luke says something similar in TLJ deleted scene. Rey can run off and kill the bandits, but were does it end. The bandits could have friends and allies that will retaliate. Will Rey be there to protect the tribe when the retaliation comes? Will she always be there to protect the tribe? If not she could make things worse for the tribe in the long run by attacking the bandits.


As for Obi, I dont really see a contradiction between Obi here and Obi in ROTJ. Obi is in pain seeing Anakin suffer, he knows Anakin would be better off dead, and the galaxy would be better off without Vader, but Obi just doesn't have the will to do it himself. In ROTS he wants Yoda to face Anakin, and in the OT he wants Luke to kill Vader. Even in ANH Obi let's Vader strike him instead of trying to kill Vader. Obi's greatest flaw in the saga is that he loves Anakin too much and that attachment makes him incapable of doing whats necessary. Obi's love endangers the whole galaxy and plays a part in millions, perhaps billions, of deaths

Its a good example of why attachments are so dangerous for Jedi. Attachments can compromise them and inhibit their duty.

But its also an example of how repressing attachments and not dealing with them openly and without support can create so much havoc. Had the Jedi dealt with attachments together and reinforced each other and discussed their attachments with each other Obi probably would have found the strength to end Anakin and Vader.
 
Luke says something similar in TLJ deleted scene. Rey can run off and kill the bandits, but were does it end. The bandits could have friends and allies that will retaliate. Will Rey be there to protect the tribe when the retaliation comes? Will she always be there to protect the tribe? If not she could make things worse for the teibe in the long run by attacking the bandits.


As for Obi, I dontreallysee a contradiction between Obi here and Obi in ROTJ. Obi is in pain seeing Anakon suffer, he knows Anakin would be better off dead, and thegalaxy would be better off without Vader, but Obi just doesn't have the will to do it himself. In ROTS hearts Yoda to face Anakin, and in the OT he wants Luke to kill Vader. Even in ANH Obi let's Vader strike him instead of trying to kill Vader. Obi's greatest flaw in the saga is that he loves Anakin too much and that attachment makes him incapable of doing whats necessary.

Its a good example of why attachments are so dangerous for Jedi. Attachments can compromise them and inhibit their duty.
He does that so Luke and his crew will escape. If not, they will try to save him, and that wouldn't work out.

I think the biggest error here, was having Obi-Wan defeat Vader. It was unnecessary, and caused more problems then anything imo. A good example of why I didn't want a rematch.
 
It was a good moment to have Kenobi see firsthand how Vader had “killed” Anakin in a matter of speaking, but it wasn’t enough to justify him letting Vader go. They could have made it work in a few ways (Qui-Gon intervening, a vision of Luke, etc.) but as it stands it’s Obi-Wan acting out of character only so that continuity doesn’t break.

For the record this was a problem with the Mustafar duel as well, but there you can kind of get around it by saying Obi-Wan was too heartbroken to finish Anakin off.
 
My view on why Obi-wan didn't kill Vader is that it relates to what he told Cube Jr. Obi-wan killing Vader would eliminate Vader, sure. A problem, yes. But there will be a replacement. Killing Vader at that moment doesn't fix anything. You need a new generation of heroes, of leaders, to fight back. Just killing Vader at that moment doesn't solve anything. At the time of ROTJ, the calculus has changed. Killing Vader then, and the Emperor then, will lead to change, and even greater victory.

Nailed it.

I think the biggest error here, was having Obi-Wan defeat Vader. It was unnecessary, and caused more problems then anything imo. A good example of why I didn't want a rematch.

I don't disagree that Vader probably should've won or Obi-Wan being put in a position of escaping so he can live to fight another day; both scenarios I would've been fine with. However, I don't see it causing problems that Obi-Wan won either. I thought it still tracked for Vader's obsession with him in the OT. Even after Vader killed Obi-Wan, he was still so salty that he couldn't resist bringing up Obi-Wan every chance he could whenever he encountered Luke. In some way, I could buy that's not the talk of a guy who felt he ever got the upper hand with Obi-Wan when it mattered. Not trying to change your mind btw, just stating my perspective.
 
I really liked that Obi-Wan didn't kill him, because to me, that only cemented the victory. It wasn't just about defeating Darth Vader, but proving that nothing had changed. He's still the student and he still hasn't learned those crucial lessons from all those years ago. For all his strength, he has the same weaknesses. Leaving him behind in a weakened state feels like a more powerful blow than outright killing him too. Like, what's stronger, to kill god or break his spirit? And by seeing Vader emotionally compromised in that final scene with the Emperor, I think it's proof that Kenobi's ploy worked.

From there, I think the motive is intentionally ambiguous and that's what I like. For me, I don't think Obi-Wan could ever kill Annakin, even if he recognises it's needed. It's part of the reason I think he puts so much hope in Annakin's children. One way or another, he believes they'll restore the balance... which I think includes doing whatever is necessary. As Obi-Wan says "I'll do what I must".

I also reckon, even if Vader says he killed Annakin, Kenobi knows it's not true... He just knows there's no point in trying to reason with him. But if Annakin was truly dead, he wouldn't be so hell bent on Kenobi. He wouldn't have abandoned chasing rebels just to get some revenge. There's personal satisfaction in that, and a desperate attempt to still prove something to his master. I think leaving him alive is Obi-Wan teaching him one final lesson. Which adds more weight to Vaders first line to him when they're united in New Hope.
 

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