The Joker Thread - Part 1

[The Lazarus Pit]

Serial killer Joker ftw! This is going to the scariest Joker yet

 

[AndyTrevino]

Serial killer Joker sounds too generic and simplistic for my tastes. Give him henchmen and stuff.

 

[The Lazarus Pit]

Serial killer Joker sounds too generic and simplistic for my tastes. Give him henchmen and stuff.

He’s literally a serial killer in the comics. It can be one (of many) aspects of the character, and doesn’t negate henchman or gags

 

[PurpleStar]

He’s literally a serial killer in the comics. It can be one (of many) aspects of the character, and doesn’t negate henchman or gags

He is and on first appearance too. However, I think the problem is when he's reduced to just that, which is somewhat an issue I have with modern comics from the last 10+ years as they tend to just have a huge pile of bodies whenever he appears but it can lack drama and tensions - which means it gets boring. I mean, the first Joker appearance has him as a serial killer, but I think some tend to focus exclusively on that. Yet the reason that story still holds up well is because the character has a certain charm, especially in how he does what he does. It's not what he does it's how he does it. So, killing does not = Joker, but rather how he kills = Joker. Just having Joker kill a ton does not make a good Joker story. You also don't need to have him kill to make a good story.

 

[The Lazarus Pit]

You’re preaching to the choir and arguing about something I don’t disagree with. Joker is a ****ing serial killer, end of story. Doesn’t mean they can’t make that interesting. You don’t have to boil him down to be just a basic serial killer . It can be one element of the character.

 

[AndyTrevino]

That's a good point, but just the way he usually operates doesn't say "serial killer" to me honestly

 

[PurpleStar]

You’re preaching to the choir and arguing about something I don’t disagree with. Joker is a ****ing serial killer, end of story. Doesn’t mean they can’t make that interesting. You don’t have to boil him down to be just a basic serial killer . It can be one element of the character.

Yep. I agree with that. Not arguing with you tbh, just with the tendancy I described really as I'm not fond of it. Killing is a key element of Joker, but one aspect of him. He is a serial killer, but not just that and that's what needs to be remembered to do Joker well imo.

 

[The Lazarus Pit]

That's a good point, but just the way he usually operates doesn't say "serial killer" to me honestly

You have a very specific vision of what a serial killer is. They have lives and interests that extend beyond killing. Same with Joker. Doesn’t mean he is any less of a serial killer.

 

[shauner111]

He is 100 percent a serial killer. But yeah, he's just multi faceted lol. A serial killer who isn't always carefully mapping out his killings, if ever. Serial killing is exactly what he does but Joker isn't always in the mood to kill you. He gets bored and shifts what he's going to do that day or changes his mind in the moment. He's not someone who would always be thinking of murder but he still does it when he feels like it.

 

[Boom]

The idea itself might be met with major apprehension from fans, but making The Joker more of a Hannibal Lecter-type of character could be genuinely interesting. And when I say "Hannibal Lecter," I don't just mean "Guy sitting in a cell who Batman comes to for advice." Rather, someone who has a profound psychological and emotional impact on the protagonist, but who isn't always a direct player in the conflict. In the television series, Hannibal would often manipulate other serial killers just to see what they would do, and then in turn see how Will Graham and Jack Crawford would react. A very curious, very mischievous sociopath with his own murderous tendencies on the side. That could be interesting to see The Joker framed that way.

 

[PurpleStar]

The idea itself might be met with major apprehension from fans, but making The Joker more of a Hannibal Lecter-type of character could be genuinely interesting. And when I say "Hannibal Lecter," I don't just mean "Guy sitting in a cell who Batman comes to for advice." Rather, someone who has a profound psychological and emotional impact on the protagonist, but who isn't always a direct player in the conflict. In the television series, Hannibal would often manipulate other serial killers just to see what they would do, and then in turn see how Will Graham and Jack Crawford would react. A very curious, very mischievous sociopath with his own murderous tendencies on the side. That could be interesting to see The Joker framed that way.

Could be interesting yes. But so long as it's not too much of a copy of Hannibal Lecter I'd say.

 

[AndyTrevino]

Could be interesting yes. But so long as it's not too much of a copy of Hannibal Lecter I'd say.

I feel like there's enough distance between the two characters already that ripping off Hannibal wouldn't be a worry for me.

 

[The Shape]

I am a big true crime nut and have studied all of the prolific serial killers of our time. While disturbing for sure, it's still very fascinating to learn how these guys operated, their methods, what drove them, how they evaded capture, what got them caught, etc.

Most serial killers have a clear MO -- a particular, characteristic, and established method to what they do. Think BTK or the Golden State Killer (East Area Rapis/Original Night Stalker). There is also often something specific that drives or motivates them to torture and kill. This is often linked with sexual gratification/release, but could also be things like the feeling of power/control, revenge, response to childhood trauma, uncontrollable anger, "hearing voices" (truly insane), needing to constantly recreate the "high" achieved from their first kill, etc. Serial killers often have a specific victim type that they hunt for the most part besides a few exceptions -- teenage boys (Gacy), young or attractive women (Bundy), sex workers (Ridgeway), etc. Some serial killers are also super twisted and theatrical in nature, in terms of what they do to their victims while they're alive, what they do to them afterwards, how they keep and display the bodies afterwards, taking photos/videos, etc.

I very much like the concept of The Joker as a serial killer, which has been presented in a variety of ways in the comics, movies and elsewhere. They can easily present him as a serial killer that is very different from this incarnation of The Riddler. What can make the Joker a very scary and formidable serial killer in these news films will be the fact that he can be truly unpredictable in multiple ways. He does not have a specific MO and kills his victim in a variety of ways -- guns, knives, strangling, and beyond -- along with displaying his victims with a theatrical flair.

Unlike The Riddler who seems to be specifically targeting high ranking officials and trying to send a message, The Joker does not need to have a specific victim type, which would make it even harder to catch him. One of the reasons why Richard Ramirez (The Night Stalker) was so terrifying is that he had no "type". He would attack and kill elderly women, married couples, young women, and even children. Anyone could be "next". The Joker should have the same unpredictability.

All of this would make it that much more frustrating for Batman because unlike The Riddler, it would be hard to figure out The Joker's motivation and The Joker's fascination will add another layer to this. Is he doing this for money, power, to send a message, or just because it all gets his rocks off and he thinks it funny to toy with Batman? We saw this concept done well in TDK but ultimately, The Joker in that film was still trying to send a message and had a pretty major over-arching plan at the end of the day. I want this Joker to have a different kind of "plan" (if he has one at all), and I think they can lean even harder into the creepy, horror-esque elements of The Joker as a serial killer.

 

[Boom]

Abigail Hobbs : Will always said whoever called the house that morning was the serial killer... Why did you really call?
Dr. Hannibal Lecter : I wanted to warn your father that Will Graham was coming for him.
Abigail Hobbs : Why?
Dr. Hannibal Lecter : I was curious what would happen... I was curious what would happen when I killed Marissa... I was curious what you would do.

That last line, that general philosophy behind Lecter's motives, could be very interesting to see played out in the Batman/Joker dynamic.

 

[AndyTrevino]

I am a big true crime nut and have studied all of the prolific serial killers of our time. While disturbing for sure, it's still very fascinating to learn how these guys operated, their methods, what drove them, how they evaded capture, what got them caught, etc.

Most serial killers have a clear MO -- a particular, characteristic, and established method to what they do. Think BTK or the Golden State Killer (East Area Rapis/Original Night Stalker). There is also often something specific that drives or motivates them to torture and kill. This is often linked with sexual gratification/release, but could also be things like the feeling of power/control, revenge, response to childhood trauma, uncontrollable anger, "hearing voices" (truly insane), needing to constantly recreate the "high" achieved from their first kill, etc. Serial killers often have a specific victim type that they hunt for the most part besides a few exceptions -- teenage boys (Gacy), young or attractive women (Bundy), sex workers (Ridgeway), etc. Some serial killers are also super twisted and theatrical in nature, in terms of what they do to their victims while they're alive, what they do to them afterwards, how they keep and display the bodies afterwards, taking photos/videos, etc.

I very much like the concept of The Joker as a serial killer, which has been presented in a variety of ways in the comics, movies and elsewhere. They can easily present him as a serial killer that is very different from this incarnation of The Riddler. What can make the Joker a very scary and formidable serial killer in these news films will be the fact that he can be truly unpredictable in multiple ways. He does not have a specific MO and kills his victim in a variety of ways -- guns, knives, strangling, and beyond -- along with displaying his victims with a theatrical flair.

Unlike The Riddler who seems to be specifically targeting high ranking officials and trying to send a message, The Joker does not need to have a specific victim type, which would make it even harder to catch him. One of the reasons why Richard Ramirez (The Night Stalker) was so terrifying is that he had no "type". He would attack and kill elderly women, married couples, young women, and even children. Anyone could be "next". The Joker should have the same unpredictability.

All of this would make it that much more frustrating for Batman because unlike The Riddler, it would be hard to figure out The Joker's motivation and The Joker's fascination will add another layer to this. Is he doing this for money, power, to send a message, or just because it all gets his rocks off and he thinks it funny to toy with Batman? We saw this concept done well in TDK but ultimately, The Joker in that film was still trying to send a message and had a pretty major over-arching plan at the end of the day. I want this Joker to have a different kind of "plan" (if he has one at all), and I think they can lean even harder into the creepy, horror-esque elements of The Joker as a serial killer.

I much prefer the idea of Joker just murdering in droves most of the time. Not one or two people every single time he kills.
That to me would feel more appropriate than him baring his face everywhere for the whole city to see and only killing two people everywhere he goes or something like that.

 

[PurpleStar]

I am a big true crime nut and have studied all of the prolific serial killers of our time. While disturbing for sure, it's still very fascinating to learn how these guys operated, their methods, what drove them, how they evaded capture, what got them caught, etc.

Most serial killers have a clear MO -- a particular, characteristic, and established method to what they do. Think BTK or the Golden State Killer (East Area Rapis/Original Night Stalker). There is also often something specific that drives or motivates them to torture and kill. This is often linked with sexual gratification/release, but could also be things like the feeling of power/control, revenge, response to childhood trauma, uncontrollable anger, "hearing voices" (truly insane), needing to constantly recreate the "high" achieved from their first kill, etc. Serial killers often have a specific victim type that they hunt for the most part besides a few exceptions -- teenage boys (Gacy), young or attractive women (Bundy), sex workers (Ridgeway), etc. Some serial killers are also super twisted and theatrical in nature, in terms of what they do to their victims while they're alive, what they do to them afterwards, how they keep and display the bodies afterwards, taking photos/videos, etc.

I very much like the concept of The Joker as a serial killer, which has been presented in a variety of ways in the comics, movies and elsewhere. They can easily present him as a serial killer that is very different from this incarnation of The Riddler. What can make the Joker a very scary and formidable serial killer in these news films will be the fact that he can be truly unpredictable in multiple ways. He does not have a specific MO and kills his victim in a variety of ways -- guns, knives, strangling, and beyond -- along with displaying his victims with a theatrical flair.

Unlike The Riddler who seems to be specifically targeting high ranking officials and trying to send a message, The Joker does not need to have a specific victim type, which would make it even harder to catch him. One of the reasons why Richard Ramirez (The Night Stalker) was so terrifying is that he had no "type". He would attack and kill elderly women, married couples, young women, and even children. Anyone could be "next". The Joker should have the same unpredictability.

All of this would make it that much more frustrating for Batman because unlike The Riddler, it would be hard to figure out The Joker's motivation and The Joker's fascination will add another layer to this. Is he doing this for money, power, to send a message, or just because it all gets his rocks off and he thinks it funny to toy with Batman? We saw this concept done well in TDK but ultimately, The Joker in that film was still trying to send a message and had a pretty major over-arching plan at the end of the day. I want this Joker to have a different kind of "plan" (if he has one at all), and I think they can lean even harder into the creepy, horror-esque elements of The Joker as a serial killer.

Yeah, that sounds reasonable. I think the reason I and some others are a bit weary of having Joker as a serial killer is more to do with how it's handled really, rather than being completely against the idea. Joker is a serial killer, that's one element of the character so shouldn't be ignored. The issue is when lazy writing just has him kill kill kill as then it feels like, oh Joker kills a bunch of people again? Who cares... When something interesting and creative is done with it though, then it's good. Plus, as for the unpredictability of Joker, having him not kill sometimes also works well, in addition to having him kill in creative ways.
Joker's sometimes a bit spree killer like tbh as some stories have him kill a series of people in a short space of time, and then maybe not so much at other times.

 

[Captain Tired]

I much prefer the idea of Joker just murdering in droves most of the time. Not one or two people every single time he kills.
That to me would feel more appropriate than him baring his face everywhere for the whole city to see and only killing two people everywhere he goes or something like that.

You prefer the Joker as a mass murderer

 

[AndyTrevino]

You prefer the Joker as a mass murderer

Basically. I just didn't say explicitly because he's just too spontaneous to be either or.

 

[Captain Tired]

Basically. I just didn't say explicitly because he's just too spontaneous to be either or.

Agreed. The Joker overlaps between various categorisations of killer, .e.g., mass, spree, serial, etc., on account of his various incarnations over the years. To my mind, what separates the Joker from the lowliness of an IRL killer, is the sense of flamboyance, panache and spectacle that he usually tries to bring to it. I think that's the x factor that PurpleStar has been dancing around. The Joker wouldn't just kill someone and call it a day. He has to try and make it ironic/humorous in how he does it.

 

[AndyTrevino]

Putting aside any biases as best you can, judging from what we've seen so far of the overall aesthetic, how likely would you say it is for Reeves to put his own DIY spin on the pink 1966 Romero outfit for his Joker

 

[PurpleStar]

Agreed. The Joker overlaps between various categorisations of killer, .e.g., mass, spree, serial, etc., on account of his various incarnations over the years. To my mind, what separates the Joker from the lowliness of an IRL killer, is the sense of flamboyance, panache and spectacle that he usually tries to bring to it. I think that's the x factor that PurpleStar has been dancing around. The Joker wouldn't just kill someone and call it a day. He has to try and make it ironic/humorous in how he does it.

Exactly. Joker has a flair to how he does things, that's what I'm getting at. He can be described as a serial killer but at the same time, that doesn't really cover it. And is it really useful to to use real life categories like that when no one in real life is analogous to the character anyway?

 

[WatchProtect]

Putting aside any biases as best you can, judging from what we've seen so far of the overall aesthetic, how likely would you say it is for Reeves to put his own DIY spin on the pink 1966 Romero outfit for his Joker

Id like to see it tbh, I wasn't a fan awhile back but I think, depending On the guy, that it could work pretty well.

 

[The Shape]

Exactly. Joker has a flair to how he does things, that's what I'm getting at. He can be described as a serial killer but at the same time, that doesn't really cover it. And is it really useful to to use real life categories like that when no one in real life is analogous to the character anyway?

That's what I meant by saying that The Joker can be truly unpredictable and impossible to pin down to one specific MO, or one specific method or style of killing. Maybe one day he kills 2 people, the next 1 person, and the new a dozen.

As for comparing to real life killers, it can definitely be useful to look at this through that lens, because that's exactly what Reeves has done with The Riddler. For Riddler, they clearly drew major inspiration from Zodiac among others. Zodiac was a very specific kind of killer. Zodiac killed several people, had a slight flair for the theatrical (wore a mask once like this Riddler does), and toyed with police extensively. He sent ranting letters, drawings, and puzzles (which were nearly impossible to solve) to police on numerous occasions. His true motivations were ultimately unclear, although his letters gave some clues. He enjoyed some attention from police and the media with his letters and puzzles, but never was brazen enough to show his face or reveal his actual identity. He was smart and cunning enough to evade capture and his still never been truly identified to this day.

Zodiac was a good (but not perfect) analog to a character like The Riddler, which Reeves was smart enough to consider. Reeves took the concept and aesthetic of Zodiac, then applied it to the Riddler and adapted/amplified these aspects to fit the world of Gotham and Batman. He gave him a specific motivation and specific targets (high ranking officials/politicians), made his murders/crimes/riddles more grotesque and over-the-top (Zodiac mostly just shot people), and has obviously given him a major over-arching plan for Batman and Gotham, rather than just making him a simple murders who kills a few random people.

Whichever direction he decides to go, it's likely that Reeves would do something similar with a character like The Joker. Draw inspiration from multiple serial killers, mass murderers, and/or gansters to come up with his own cinematic version of The Joker that will fit the world and universe he has established, obviously adding theatrics and comic book flair. But Reeves keeps harping on how realistic and "grounded" he wants his Batman to be, so there will naturally be some elements of realism applied to his Joker, as well.

 

[AndyTrevino]

I just feel like there's a way to ground him without making him a combo of THIS killer or THAT cult leader.

Then again Reeves knows what he's doing and won't make his Joker a carbon copy of those people anyways so....idk.

 

[PurpleStar]

That's what I meant by saying that The Joker can be truly unpredictable and impossible to pin down to one specific MO, or one specific method or style of killing. Maybe one day he kills 2 people, the next 1 person, and the new a dozen.

As for comparing to real life killers, it can definitely be useful to look at this through that lens, because that's exactly what Reeves has done with The Riddler. For Riddler, they clearly drew major inspiration from Zodiac among others. Zodiac was a very specific kind of killer. Zodiac killed several people, had a slight flair for the theatrical (wore a mask once like this Riddler does), and toyed with police extensively. He sent ranting letters, drawings, and puzzles (which were nearly impossible to solve) to police on numerous occasions. His true motivations were ultimately unclear, although his letters gave some clues. He enjoyed some attention from police and the media with his letters and puzzles, but never was brazen enough to show his face or reveal his actual identity. He was smart and cunning enough to evade capture and his still never been truly identified to this day.

Zodiac was a good (but not perfect) analog to a character like The Riddler, which Reeves was smart enough to consider. Reeves took the concept and aesthetic of Zodiac, then applied it to the Riddler and adapted/amplified these aspects to fit the world of Gotham and Batman. He gave him a specific motivation and specific targets (high ranking officials/politicians), made his murders/crimes/riddles more grotesque and over-the-top (Zodiac mostly just shot people), and has obviously given him a major over-arching plan for Batman and Gotham, rather than just making him a simple murders who kills a few random people.

Whichever direction he decides to go, it's likely that Reeves would do something similar with a character like The Joker. Draw inspiration from multiple serial killers, mass murderers, and/or gansters to come up with his own cinematic version of The Joker that will fit the world and universe he has established, obviously adding theatrics and comic book flair. But Reeves keeps harping on how realistic and "grounded" he wants his Batman to be, so there will naturally be some elements of realism applied to his Joker, as well.

To some degree, real life reference points can be interesting to consider Joker, yes. There's a series on YouTube called "ask a psychopath" which is interviews with psychopaths - not ones who have killed or done serious crimes, but just normal people but diagnosed with Antisocial Personality Disorder. But of course serial killers with that diagnosis are of interest for the same reason. It's interesting how they describe their views on things, particularly empathy and social norms e.g. how they can't understand why some things are wrong because they don't feel empathy. I found that interesting in thinking about how Joker is as a character, because while he's larger than life and therefore not exactly someone possible in real life, he does have some traits that are comparable to some things like that, so it gives you a reference point for how Joker might think/see things. And things like that can add a bit of depth and points of interest to the character.