The Official Punisher by Rick Remender / Punisher MAX thread

No doubt that Frank's character fits better in Max world, however i would like too see the punisher kick some super villains a** from time to time, now more than ever when he has weapons for it.

For me the best arc in the early punisher titles was in the time when the writers were Mike Baron and Chuck Dixon :)
 
So, I know it's an old story and it's probably been discussed, but I just finished reading BORN again for the billionth time, and I'm curious as to what others think of the arc. I always find I really enjoy it up until the last 5 pages. I really don't like how Ennis eludes to Frank making a deal with the Devil or Oliver or whoever it's supposed to be, and I like even less that he makes it seem like it was Frank's poor judgement that resulted in the family death.

I've always loved the idea of the family death being an excuse to continue his war, but for me, BORN goes a little too far with it, I think. It lessens the tragedy of Frank's loss.

Anyone else care to comment?
 
I'm a Punisher n00b, picked up Aaron's current Punisher Max title because I liked the look of the artwork, and i'm loving the series. Especially the prison storyline. Can anyone recommend me some essential Punisher titles to read, that I may not know about?
 
Welcome Back Frank. Same artist, better writer. No disrespect to Jason Aaron meant at all. I am not to keen on the idea of Frank being back into the 616, marvel will never let him kill any villains of importance and therefore it kind of makes him a waste of a character in 616.
 
I really don't like how Ennis eludes to Frank making a deal with the Devil or Oliver or whoever it's supposed to be, and I like even less that he makes it seem like it was Frank's poor judgement that resulted in the family death.

I've always loved the idea of the family death being an excuse to continue his war, but for me, BORN goes a little too far with it, I think. It lessens the tragedy of Frank's loss.

Anyone else care to comment?

I always thought I was alone with this, given how much Ennis' stuff is loved. It always made me extremely uneasy. I liked the vast majority of Ennis' contributions, but that was too much for me. I hated it. While it's interesting, it just changes too much of Frank for me. I think the current idea of how Frank couldn't come home and adjust to being a really "normal" person is incredibly interesting, but having him want the war to go on forever and wanting his family to be offered up to "death" stinks to me.

When I was a kid, I got into the Punisher because of the Sega Channel's offer of the Genesis Punisher beat 'em up. From that point on, I saw the situation as, he's another victim of crime, being in the wrong place at the wrong time, but the thing that sets him apart from any other victim is:

1.) He has the training and means to war against those who do wrong

2.) Combine the above with the fact that this isn't the real world, but rather a place filled with heroes, thus the idea of "doing something" would be a bit more plausible than in the real world. "This is a world where people can punch out evil and bring about justice when the authorities fail to do anything! I'm a damn good soldier, why can't I help people? Make a difference?!"

3.) And finally, the disgusting irony of it all. He went to do multiple tours in 'Nam. Went to hell, but came back everytime. Now that he's back where it's "normal" and "safe" -- A time out zone, is where he and his family die.

As I said above, I like the idea of Frank being unable to connect, but I like a version in which he's conscious of something wrong, he wants to be back to normal, but can't and doesn't know why he's so far from his family. I like that rather than, "sure he cares about his family, but he cares more about killing and war--that's fun. His family was weighing him down and he wanted to have them leave in some way -- not to die, but, oh well, don't look a gifthorse in the mouth."

The former is so tragic to me. The war changed him, took something away, while simultaneously adding things to his very being.

I don't know, maybe I've got it wrong, but that's why in part I'm looking towards Rucka's run. It'll be a new taste, on a familiar loved character. I find it interesting that he'll be playing with the nature vs nurture question of Frank; "would he still be doing this if his family was alive?" idea. It'll be a new option other than Max. I like Max and all, but 616 is my first love.
 
I think some people have forgotten that the Punisher had 3 ongoing titles in 1989 to 1995 all of them in 616 universe. For me the golden age of the punisher.
 
I thinks some people have forgotten that 3 titles for a character like the Punisher is also one of the many factors caused the comic industry bubble to collapse in the mid-90's.

Right know unquestionably, MAX is the definitive Punisher book and he there's no reason to even exist in the 616. It doesn't take much for the 616 to reclaim that title, you just need a solid writer that tells great stories and works around the restrictions the 616 character has. That's why soon all eyes will be on Rucka to see what he's got.
 
Even though his old titles were 616, they were still mostly contained stories, and most of them had villains exclusive to Punisher, or Spider-Man throwaways. The writers still tried to maintain a sense of hyper-realism with Frank, even though he was 616, as he'd mostly stick to Marvel Knights style characters rather than the more cartoony Avengers style stuff.

I actually enjoyed Remender's 616 take when Dark Reign was around. It was a fun arc for Frank, kind of like a popcorn version of Punisher. I have yet to read Frankencastle (though I've got it) so I can't comment on anything after that. 616 is kind of a neat little thing to read every now and again just to see Frank like he was in the old days.

But, with MAX, there's really not a more perfect universe for him.
 
I loved Frankencastle. Past that, there's not much more for 616 Punisher. In The Blood was crappy and I'd avoid it. The end of Frankencastle sets up Rucka's Punisher just fine.
 
As for the BORN issue it's Death that is talking to Frank , Ennis actually says this in the extras in the hardcover Trade, as a reader you might want it to be a voice in Frank's head or the Devil or whatever but it's Death , Ennis has said so.

Plus when thought out it fits , The Punisher wears deaths head on his chest (skull) , plus he is told by the 'voice' that it has many names, like death has, also it tells him what will happen in the future, Franks families Death, if it was just Frank talking to him self how could see into the future ?!?!?

Plus the Death tells Frank that he will forget all that it has just told him ( his families death) once again if it was just a voice in Franks head, how could make him forget?


But what ever reasons given to counter act my points here, at the end of the day, it's the grim reaper talking to frank tricking him into making a deal, Ennis the author of BORN , has said so....
 
Uhh I don't think anyone was disputing that...we're talking about whether or not it was a good or bad writing choice. I personally think it's a bad one, one of the very few Ennis made during his run, and I tend to ignore it.
 
I thinks some people have forgotten that 3 titles for a character like the Punisher is also one of the many factors caused the comic industry bubble to collapse in the mid-90's.

I agree with you and i think they should have join the 3 titles in 1.

I think everybody knows that Max Universe is where Frank truely belong.

Imo Frank has a say in 616 universe, yes its difficult to write because "it's a world with super guys and stuff and they will notice Frank's body count and go after him and he don't have any powers bla bla"... Garth Ennis did and did it well in Marvel Knights for example in the arc "Confederancy of Dunces". i hope Rucka can do it too.
 
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Yeah Confederancy of Dunces is my personal fav 616 Punisher interacting with supes story. If Rucka can get to this standard with the relaunch I will be very happy indeed. :yay:
 
I thought Remender's initial Dark Reign run was a lot of fun as far as 616 goes. Frank using the Ant-Man helmet to hide in a pizza and then grow full size inside someone's face was awesome.
 
Uhh I don't think anyone was disputing that...we're talking about whether or not it was a good or bad writing choice. I personally think it's a bad one, one of the very few Ennis made during his run, and I tend to ignore it.


I will say at first when I first read
BORN , I was the same I did not get it, and really ignored it too, but as time has went on and I read it and reread it, it makes sense, to the Point that BORN, is now my favorite Punisher tale

because Death picking a man like Frank to do it's bidding and then always having him survive ? example being Valley Forge, when no one else could or did,

and then all the other MAX arcs, when most or near all other people would have died, been killed, or just too damaged to continue , both mentally or physically , shows that the character is protected in some way by death, and why Frank with out knowing it wears his masters symbol on his chest, I remember an issue of Moon knight actually pointing this out, before it was made clear by Marvel that Max was a seperate universe from the MU 616.....
 
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I really liked the Ennis/Dillon run, but I actually think the Aaron/Dillon run is even better. I love the flashbacks most of all, showing how he was always messed up and just looking for an excuse to unleash his darker urges. I thought the Bullseye arc in particular was genius and deserved more attention. Aaron's Bullseye blows the 616 one away. I've honestly never enjoyed a Punisher run as much as I have this one. It's one of the few comics I still look forward to each month.

I see criticism mainly about Aaron changing Frank's origin to make it seem like he wanted his family gone. So what, if the implications about Frank's family change the character a bit? This is MAX, not 616. I find getting into the nitty gritty of his psyche fascinating. If you don't like that stuff, you still have your blander, less nuanced Frankencastle 616 interpretation to fall back on.
 
For me, Ennis' MAX run is near perfect. Even though other stories since have been good or even great, they don't come close, and changes that other writers decide to make still don't have a huge impact on how I view Frank as a whole because Ennis' run will always be my "pocket" universe for Punisher.
 
I must admit , the one thing I don't like is that Frank wanted his Family dead, it just takes away from the core of the character for me, and just makes him an other killer , killing for the sake of killing.....
 
I'm not taking that away from the arc so far. I think that Frank was having trouble readjusting to normal life from war. It seems to me he didn't want them dead, he just did not want to be around them.
 
Well my theory is that Frank does love his family but there is just too much darkness there to go back to normal life. I think him asking for a divorce is his way of protecting his family from himself. There is no way Frank wanted his family dead, he's just emotionally distant. Anyway this should be resolved next issue as there are only two more issues of the current arc and the final issue will have to cover him breaking out of prison by which point Frank should have to have returned to his previous badassery. I really hope there is another Squeaky Pete moment with big jesus :woot:
 
I am huge Punisher fan.
I am not fond of Remender’s work, I despised Frankencastle and avoided In The Blood like the plague.
But I loved Ennis' run (MAX and Knights) and am loving Aaron's run on Max I haven't really enjoyed Punisher since the Carl Potts and Chuck Dixon worked on the comic until Ennis and Aaron started working on The Punisher. I hope Aaron continues his work on MAX because I am really digging his writing and the brutal nature of his stories.
I wouldn't be fussed if Marvel decided to end 616 Punisher and just continued MAX. MAX gives us a 100% realistic Punisher and has no restraints which suits a character like Frank Castle perfectly.
:yay:
 
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Yep, where he lights an astronaut drug smuggler on fire. Classic.
 
Yeah G-force was good but going to the thermosphere isnt really outer space, this looks stupid as hell but sure why not - at least it isnt frankencastle :woot:
 

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