The Rotten Tomatoes/Critic's Reaction Thread

[Abudefduf]

It's the idea that she's secondary to Carol. They don't care about Carol taking on the title of Captain Marvel. It is about a younger black girl looking up to an older white woman when that's not the spirit of the character in the mythology. I believe they would have been satisfied with Monica as more of a peer or partner with powers of her own. Maria is fantastic as Carol's friend and Monica's mother, but she's also not a superhero and is positioned in a sidekick role that is even beneath Nick Fury.



I think there was a way to make films for both characters without Monica meeting Carol as a child.

Fair enough. To be honest none of that bothers me, but I can perfectly understand why some people would have a problem with it.

I guess I'm just going to point out that just because Monica admired Carol as a kid, it doesn't mean she will automatically become her new best friend and sidekick when they meet in the present. We don't really need another black sidekick to a white hero in the MCU.

 

[misslane38]

Fair enough. To be honest none of that bothers me, but I can perfectly understand why some people would have a problem with it.

I guess I'm just going to point out that just because Monica admired Carol as a kid, it doesn't mean she will automatically become her new best friend and sidekick when they meet in the present. We don't really need another black sidekick to a white hero in the MCU.

I don't even think the sidekick thing is even an issue. Ultimately, it's all about the power dynamic. In the MCU, Monica Rambeau will always been a superhero whose backstory will likely include Carol as a formative influence, and their relationship will always been contextualized with a sort of older/younger or auntie/niece dynamic. I think a better approach would have been to excise the Rambeaus from the story completely until Carol emerged back into the contemporary MCU. That way Carol could meet a Monica Rambeau from New Orleans whose been using her powers with the same Captain Marvel moniker and have a laugh together as they move forward together as peers.

 

[MbJ]

What is insane about speaking about my own experience with people unhappy with Monica's role in the film?

That's not what the gif is in reference to.

 

[misslane38]

That's not what the gif is in reference to.

Please explain.

 

[MbJ]

Please explain.

No.

 

[misslane38]

No.

Well, no matter what the context or explanation, calling people insane and not wanting to explain your aim in expressing that view is not a kind thing to do.

 

[MbJ]

Was the quote referenced in the gif.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

@misslane38 You should take the word of Carol Danvers experts like @Abudefduf and @flickchick85 when they post about the history of Captain Marvel and Carol Danvers in every iteration, they know their thing better than most people on the internet who are probably mostly new to the character.

If you want to talk about age difference and first coming to the title as disrespectful, maybe I should consider a lot of how MCU handle characters as disrespectful. Black Panther first appeared in the pages of Fantastic Four, Marvel Comics's first family, and in the MCU he debuted in a Captain America film while in this world the Fantastic Four don't exist. This is a world that introduced Iron Man before they introduced Captain America, one of the company's oldest characters who debuted way too early when World War II was still happening. Tony was even introduced before the Hulk, and Hulk first got a publicized story in March of 1962, while Iron Man was introduced in 1963.

And I can make this a very very long post talking about Spider-Man alone when it comes to his age relating to every other Marvel superhero in the publication format, specifically the mainstream central universe, and then comparing it to how he is treated in the movies against how he was originally handled in the comics.

 

[Zarex]

I don't even think the sidekick thing is even an issue. Ultimately, it's all about the power dynamic. In the MCU, Monica Rambeau will always been a superhero whose backstory will likely include Carol as a formative influence, and their relationship will always been contextualized with a sort of older/younger or auntie/niece dynamic. I think a better approach would have been to excise the Rambeaus from the story completely until Carol emerged back into the contemporary MCU. That way Carol could meet a Monica Rambeau from New Orleans whose been using her powers with the same Captain Marvel moniker and have a laugh together as they move forward together as peers.

I suppose they could have handled it as you have suggested. But as others have mentioned, Auntie Monica never had any connection to the Mar-Vell legacy. She was granted the name Captain Marvel after Starlin's classic 'Death Of' TB solely for TM purposes. Ms. Rambeau became Captain Marvel so that the Big Red Cheese with the movie opening next month would be forced to stick with SHAZAM!

I very much enjoyed the Rambeau girls in Captain Marvel. And because of how the story was handled, and the connection established , future Auntie Monica could potentially succeed Carol as the next Cap.

And though I'd love for Brie to stick around for a long time, a 'Death Of CM' movie would be a great way for her to go out. That story is an all time classic.

 

[misslane38]

@misslane38 You should take the word of Carol Danvers experts like @Abudefduf and @flickchick85 when they post about the history of Captain Marvel and Carol Danvers in every iteration, they know their thing better than most people on the internet who are probably mostly new to the character.

If you want to talk about age difference and first coming to the title as disrespectful, maybe I should consider a lot of how MCU handle characters as disrespectful. Black Panther first appeared in the pages of Fantastic Four, Marvel Comics's first family, and in the MCU he debuted in a Captain America film while in this world the Fantastic Four don't exist. This is a world that introduced Iron Man before they introduced Captain America, one of the company's oldest characters who debuted way too early when World War II was still happening. Tony was even introduced before the Hulk, and Hulk first got a publicized story in March of 1962, while Iron Man was introduced in 1963.

And I can make this a very very long post talking about Spider-Man alone when it comes to his age relating to every other Marvel superhero in the publication format, specifically the mainstream central universe, and then comparing it to how he is treated in the movies against how he was originally handled in the comics.

Sorry, I'm going to trust the kinds of people Brie Larson was advocating I should trust: marginalized voices, like women of color, who have a valid voice to add to this conversation and the people who have largely informed my posts on the subject here. For example, this article from a woman of color: The FIRST Captain: How the ‘Captain Marvel’ Erases Monica Rambeau.

 

[misslane38]

I suppose they could have handled it as you have suggested. But as others have mentioned, Auntie Monica never had any connection to the Mar-Vell legacy. She was granted the name Captain Marvel after Starlin's classic 'Death Of' TB solely for TM purposes. Ms. Rambeau became Captain Marvel so that the Big Red Cheese with the movie opening next month would be forced to stick with SHAZAM!

I very much enjoyed the Rambeau girls in Captain Marvel. And because of how the story was handled, and the connection established , future Auntie Monica could potentially succeed Carol as the next Cap.

And though I'd love for Brie to stick around for a long time, a Death Of movie would be a great way for her to go out. That story is an all time classic.

I'm not suggesting that Monica should have been the lead or had Carol's story, but somehow find a way to honor the fact that Monica was the first female Captain Marvel (the heir to the Mar-Vell legacy is a separate issue). I think a respectful and creative approach would have found a way to not make it so now Monica can only ever be a follower of Carol's while her mother, Maria, is foremost in Carol's heart as her friend the way Steve relates to Bucky.

 

[Zarex]

Sorry, I'm going to trust the kinds of people Brie Larson was advocating I should trust: marginalized voices, like women of color, who have a valid voice to add to this conversation and the people who have largely informed my posts on the subject here. For example, this article from a woman of color: The FIRST Captain: How the ‘Captain Marvel’ Erases Monica Rambeau.

From the article - "Monica Rambeau, a black female superhero, is the first person to ever use the Captain Marvel moniker"

Should we trust this person?

 

[misslane38]

From the article - "Monica Rambeau, a black female superhero, is the first person to ever use the Captain Marvel moniker"

Should we trust this person?

Read the whole article and judge her on the sum total of what she's saying. I believe she just means the first woman. Either way, Monica was Captain Marvel before Carol was, and that's the canon we're all referring to in this discussion.

 

[Zarex]

Read the whole article and judge her on the sum total of what she's saying. I believe she just means the first woman. Either way, Monica was Captain Marvel before Carol was, and that's the canon we're all referring to in this discussion.

I don't give a fig what you THINK she meant. There were THREE Captain Marvels before Ms. Rambeau, one each from Marvel and DC and another dude that split into pieces for reasons. Call me Mr. Pedantic, but I don't trust writers who can't be bothered to research easily obtainable info.

I thought it was terrific that Marvel incorporated the Rambeaus into Carol's story and I am looking forward to seeing a lot more of them going forward.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

Sorry, I'm going to trust the kinds of people Brie Larson was advocating I should trust: marginalized voices, like women of color, who have a valid voice to add to this conversation and the people who have largely informed my posts on the subject here. For example, this article from a woman of color: The FIRST Captain: How the ‘Captain Marvel’ Erases Monica Rambeau.

You are citing people who talk about comic book characters while they don't have the right amount of knowledge about them to make their complaints valid.

 

[flickchick85]

I never said Monica is the "rightful heir" of the Captain Marvel legacy. I said there's a way to honor her history in the canon without completely twisting it or erasing it completely. And she has had something to do with the history of Captain Marvel. She took over the name and the title during a period when the original Captain Marvel was gone and Carol was Ms. Marvel, so find a way to play with that idea in a film that positions Carol as Mar-Vell's true heir. Why couldn't there be a Monica Rambeau on Earth using the Captain Marvel name circa Carol's return to Earth? Why create Maria to be Carol's peer rather than Monica? There are plenty of ways to wink at the original canon history of these characters without undermining it.

I’m pretty sure the only reason they had Maria be Carol’s peer instead of Monica is because they knew they were setting the film in the past and wanted Monica to be her peer in present day. They wanted Monica to have more of a future in the MCU. And this way, they don’t have to erase Monica’s history to do so. She can still be a Coast Guard lieutenant, get her powers the same way, and have the same backstory she had in the comics, the only difference being she knew Carol Danvers as a kid. If they’d had Monica playing Maria’s role in this, she’d basically be Monica in name only.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

I’m pretty sure the only reason they had Maria be Carol’s peer instead of Monica is because they knew they were setting the film in the past and wanted Monica to be her peer in present day. They wanted Monica to have more of a future in the MCU. And this way, they don’t have to revise Monica’s history to do so. She can still be a Coast Guard lieutenant, get her powers the same way, and have the same backstory she had in the comics, the only difference being she knew Carol Danvers as a kid. If they’d had Monica playing Maria’s role in this, she’d basically be Monica in name only.

I'm sure it was. If Monica was Carol's peer in this, she'd be too old to be a superhero in the present.

 

[misslane38]

I don't give a fig what you THINK she meant. There were THREE Captain Marvels before Ms. Rambeau, one each from Marvel and DC and another dude that split into pieces for reasons. Call me Mr. Pedantic, but I don't trust writers who can't be bothered to research easily obtainable info.

I thought it was terrific that Marvel incorporated the Rambeaus into Carol's story and I am looking forward to seeing a lot more of them going forward.

I'm not disputing the long line of Captain Marvels that predated Monica. Monica came before Carol in the role and that precedent is important to many young women of color. Monica was the first Captain Marvel to join The Avengers. That matters to young black women whether they remember a man had the name first or not.

The new film did include Monica, and it was a great part of the story. Nevertheless, there was a way to maintain the spirit of Captain Marvel's comic history without totally screwing with the power and relationship dynamics between Carol and Monica. They should be peers and equals.

 

[misslane38]

I’m pretty sure the only reason they had Maria be Carol’s peer instead of Monica is because they knew they were setting the film in the past and wanted Monica to be her peer in present day. They wanted Monica to have more of a future in the MCU. And this way, they don’t have to erase Monica’s history to do so. She can still be a Coast Guard lieutenant, get her powers the same way, and have the same backstory she had in the comics, the only difference being she knew Carol Danvers as a kid. If they’d had Monica playing Maria’s role in this, she’d basically be Monica in name only.

And if that's the only way to do it, then there shouldn't have been any Rambeaus at all. Now, Monica will always be secondary to Carol. She'll always be a little kid and her friend's daughter. Carol's strong bond will be with Maria not Monica. While I love the idea of the Rambeaus, and I'm sure they're lovely in the movie, I think it would've been better to focus on Carol's backstory and family in her origin. The way things are set up now, Monica will never have a chance to not emerge in the MCU as an offshoot of Carol's story, and that's not really the character's backstory. She picks up where Mar-Vell left off even in name only, and when she took on that name she was a leader and important member of The Avengers. What the MCU has done has erased Monica's history.

Look, I totally understand how difficult it was to balance the 90s setting with the original Marvel canon. I get that it made it challenging for them to find a way to make all of this complicated canon cohere in a way that reconciles critical elements of that canon. I get that the MCU was saddled with some of these issues because they were poorly handled in the comics. I appreciate that the MCU tried to make it work. But I hope that it is equally understandable that the solution was not a perfect fit. It was not elegant. It did not fix everything. So, with that in mind, I think it is possible to have a little bit of empathy with the women, particularly black women, who are disappointed.

 

[flickchick85]

It was not a perfect fit or fix, but it was a pretty damn good one, imo. And it in no way erases her history. She can still have all the things that made her Monica Rambeau in the comics, something that wouldn't have happened if she'd been given the Maria role here. She can still become a lieutenant in the Louisiana Coast Guard (or Harbor Patrol, depending on the version), she can still get her powers from an extra-dimensional device, she can still become Carol's friend and peer when they meet again in the future, one who will call Carol on her ****, and can still become a hero on her own terms. She will just do it as Photon or Spectrum, not Captain Marvel, a name that should've never been used on her in the first place, and only was due to the timing of her creation, nothing more.

I get the optics here and how they might irk some folks, but frankly, that's all surface stuff that removes all context - Monica's history is just a weird and tricky situation, as I cannot stress enough how she has NOTHING to do with the Captain Marvel legacy apart from having used the name for a time so Marvel could hang onto the copyright. She didn't know Mar-Vell, or Carol, or the Kree, or any of it. She was completely unrelated. The name, in her case, is just happenstance, and has no meaning for her. Carol took nothing from her. Carol was a superhero first, and she was the person always carrying on Mar-Vell's mantle before Monica ever existed. And, to put it bluntly, Monica Rambeau's never been a headliner - she never had her own series and was a perpetual guest-character in comics, so she was always gonna be introduced to the MCU as a supporting character in someone's story. Considering her and Carol becoming friends and colleagues in recent times in comics, Carol's story was a logical choice. I think they included her in a smart and organic way for her MCU introduction, a way that's more likely to make her a bigger name than she ever was in the comics. She is now poised for success, and potentially her own franchise, something the comics never afforded her.

 

[misslane38]

It was not a perfect fit or fix, but it was a pretty damn good one, imo. And it in no way erases her history. She can still have all the things that made her Monica Rambeau in the comics, something that wouldn't have happened if she'd been given the Maria role here. She can still become a lieutenant in the Louisiana Coast Guard (or Harbor Patrol, depending on the version), she can still get her powers from an extra-dimensional device, she can still become Carol's friend and peer when they meet again in the future, one who will call Carol on her ****, and can still become a hero on her own terms. She will just do it as Photon or Spectrum, not Captain Marvel, a name that should've never been used on her in the first place, and only was due to the timing of her creation, nothing more.

I get the optics here and how they might irk some folks, but frankly, that's all surface stuff that removes all context - Monica's history is just a weird and tricky situation, as I cannot stress enough how she has NOTHING to do with the Captain Marvel legacy apart from having used the name for a time so Marvel could hang onto the copyright. She didn't know Mar-Vell, or Carol, or the Kree, or any of it. She was completely unrelated. The name, in her case, is just happenstance, and has no meaning for her. Carol took nothing from her. Carol was a superhero first, and she was the person always carrying on Mar-Vell's mantle before Monica ever existed. And, to put it bluntly, Monica Rambeau's never been a headliner - she never had her own series and was a perpetual guest-character in comics, so she was always gonna be introduced to the MCU as a supporting character in someone's story. Considering her and Carol becoming friends and colleagues in recent times in comics, Carol's story was a logical choice. I think they included her in a smart and organic way for her MCU introduction, a way that's more likely to make her a bigger name than she ever was in the comics. She is now poised for success, and potentially her own franchise, something the comics never afforded her.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree, then. I don't feel comfortable deciding what is and isn't sufficient representation and respect where this issue is concerned. The women of color who are disappointed with the movie and disappointed with the comics that made similar mistakes have a voice worth listening to and a point that, to me, is a valid one. I understand where you're coming from and why the filmmakers made the decisions they made. I just wish it had been a better movie for the women of color who value her and that I had as much faith as you do that her future will be brighter this way.

 

[flickchick85]

Happy to agree to disagree.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I think this argument would have more merit if Monica was the first character named Captain Marvel. But, she wasn't. That honor goes to Mar-Vell, who also was "marginalized" in this movie (which by the way, how they did Mar-Vell doesn't bother me at all...I liked it actually). The fact is I think this movie did a great job honoring all Captain Marvel's, past and present. Carol wasn't the first Captain Marvel either, but she carved her way into being the star of a fast approaching billion dollar movie. Monica for most of her existence at this point has gone by other names than Captain Marvel. She can go and forge her own legacy. Will her history be tied to Carol's? To a certain extent yes, but that doesn't mean she cannot grow into her own and be successful still.

 

[misslane38]

I think this argument would have more merit if Monica was the first character named Captain Marvel. But, she wasn't. That honor goes to Mar-Vell, who also was "marginalized" in this movie (which by the way, how they did Mar-Vell doesn't bother me at all...I liked it actually). The fact is I think this movie did a great job honoring all Captain Marvel's, past and present. Carol wasn't the first Captain Marvel either, but she carved her way into being the star of a fast approaching billion dollar movie. Monica for most of her existence at this point has gone by other names than Captain Marvel. She can go and forge her own legacy. Will her history be tied to Carol's? To a certain extent yes, but that doesn't mean she cannot grow into her own and be successful still.

I wish I could be as optimistic as you, but I'm having a hard time seeing how Monica becoming Photon won't just be a side plot in one of Carol's future films after which she'll be mentored by Carol and supporting her the way the MCU has always used black sidekicks (Rhodey, Falcon). The fact of the matter is that Monica always had her own story that wasn't tied to Carol's. She honored Mar-Vell in her own way and made a place for herself as the leader of The Avengers without Carol. I can't see a path forward for the MCU's Monica that gives her the same independent agency. I would be happily be proven wrong.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I wish I could be as optimistic as you, but I'm having a hard time seeing how Monica becoming Photon won't just be a side plot in one of Carol's future films after which she'll be mentored by Carol and supporting her the way the MCU has always used black sidekicks (Rhodey, Falcon). The fact of the matter is that Monica always had her own story that wasn't tied to Carol's. She honored Mar-Vell in her own way and made a place for herself as the leader of The Avengers without Carol. I can't see a path forward for the MCU's Monica that gives her the same independent agency. I would be happily be proven wrong.

Monica is coming into the MCU with opportunities Falcon or Rhodey never had. They were introduced when the MCU was not as diverse and when taking riskier characters was only just about to happen. This was the MCU pre-Black Panther (who was introduced in a Captain America movie, I may add). Will she likely be used as a supporting character in future Captain Marvel sequel(s)? Probably, but that doesn't mean she won't get any focus at all. Plus, even if Monica didn't end up with a movie, Disney+ is now an avenue where she could be explored in her own right. I get that a Disney+ show is not exactly equal to a 200 mil movie, but it still would be an opportunity to tell her story.