V For Vendetta Box Office Tracking Thread

superion said:
Why use Hellboy as a benchmark for anything? Hellboy cost $96 million dollars ($66 production and $30 marketing) and only made a little over $99 million worldwide. The studio loss tens of millions of dollars on Hellboy. Why they are discussing a sequel is beyond me?

Hellboy was also released 3 years ago so inflation has to be included in the calculation. The max amount V will make domestically is $75 million. Assuming it gets that it will need at least another $70 million overseas just to breakeven. But like Hellboy its overseas BO is lagging behind the domestic by quite a bit. V looks like another money loser just not as bad as Hellboy.
You are a bit shortsighted. As it was stated more than twice in these boards, the theatrical Box office is a mere fraction of the total income of a movie. You have to add worldwide TV and DVD sales. Hellboy was a good seller on DVD, why do you think they are developing a sequel?
 
Well I don't think the Hellboy sequel is going to happen, but that's just me.
 
I doubt the theatrical BO is just a fraction of the income. It probably still accounts for at least half of a movies income. Income from TV rights are negligible. The only other big revenue stream are DVD sales.

It makes more sense to me if the studios made most of their profits from other revenue sources while income from the theatrical BO was used to cover the production and marketing cost of a film. But if a film is a money loser at the BO the other revenue streams are still being used to cover the studio's expenses and any profit the studio will see is minimal.

I have yet to see a sequel made of any comic movie that did not at least show a slight profit or cover its production and marketing expenses at the BO.

Hulk, Daredevil and Constantine were not bombs at the BO but they still lost money and whatever they did on DVD it was not enough for the studio to go ahead with sequels.

Hellboy and the Punisher are the only two comic films that supposedly made enough money on DVD and elsewhere to offset its BO failures. However it doesn't seem like anyone is in much of a hurry to make either one.

Hellboy only covered half its expenses at the BO. That left it at least $45 in the red. It would have had to sell a lot of DVD's (at $15 a DVD it would have to sell over 3 million) to cover the remaining expenses and turn any kind of decent profit.

The Punisher is in the same boat it only covered half its $53 million expenses at the BO but since it had a smaller budget it only had to cover an additional $25 million in expenses. It may have turned a small profit with DVD sales.
 
Argentina 6 April 2006
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Spain 7 April 2006
France 19 April 2006
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Hungary 20 April 2006
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Japan 29 April 2006
 
superion said:
I doubt the theatrical BO is just a fraction of the income. It probably still accounts for at least half of a movies income. Income from TV rights are negligible. The only other big revenue stream are DVD sales.
badgraph.gif

And this graphic shows the situation back in 2000. Now with many more pay TVs worldwide and a larger use of DVDs, the slice for the box office is close to 18%.
http://www.edwardjayepstein.com/table2.htm
 
Interesting link. However the article indicates the numbers represent other product aside from movies (TV series) though pay per view revenue is higher then expected.


PHP:
The Hollywood Economist

The numbers behind the industry.

The real El Dorado is TV.

Multiple-Choice Quiz
1. Is Hollywood's biggest money-maker:
a) Movies?
b) DVDs?
c) Television?


The best-kept secret in Hollywood, especially from Wall Street, is that the movie studios' biggest profit center is not theatrical movies, or even DVD sales; it is TV licensing. If the details of the profits remain clouded to outsiders, it is no accident. The studios purposely blur together their three principal revenue sources—the box office, video sales, and television licensing—into a single portmanteau category called "studio entertainment" in their quarterly and annual reports. Keeping audiences in the dark may be a time-honored Hollywood tradition, but this breakdown can be demystified by consulting the studios' internal numbers, which they furnish to the Motion Picture Association on a confidential basis.

Last year, the six major studios—Disney, Fox, Warner Bros., Paramount, Universal, Sony, and their subsidiaries—had total revenues of $7.4 billion from world box-office sales, $20.9 billion from world video sales, and $17.7 billion from world television licensing. Revenues, however, are what companies record, not what they earn. And, in the case of Hollywood, the revenues from movies, DVDs, and TV yield very different earnings.

Once upon a time—before the TV and VCR—studios earned virtually all their profits from a single source: the theater's box office. Nowadays, in the new Hollywood, the world box office is a money loser: In 2004, the studios lost an estimated $2.22 billion on the $7.4 billion they took in from the box office. (Click here to see Table 1.) This sad reality is not a result of the high cost of making movies, inefficiencies, or of any sort of studio accounting legerdemain. The simple fact is that the studios pay more to alert potential audiences via advertising and to get movie prints into theaters than they get back from those who buy tickets. Consider, for example, Warner Bros.' movie The Negotiator, with Samuel L. Jackson and Kevin Spacey. It was efficiently produced for $43.5 million, scored a world box office of $88 million, and appeared to be a modest success. In fact, Warner Bros. collected only $36.74 million from its theatrical release after it had paid check-conversion and other collection costs, the theaters had taken their cut, and the MPA had deducted its fee. Meanwhile, to corral that audience, Warner Bros.' advertising bill was $40.28 million, and its bill for prints, trailers, dubbing, customs, and shipping was another $12.32 million. So, after the movie finished its theater run, without even considering the cost of making the movie, Warner Bros. had lost $13 million. Why? For every dollar Warner Bros. got back from the box office, it shelled out about $1.40 in expenses, which was about average, if not slightly above par, for studio movies.

This might seem equivalent to the joke about a manufacturer who says, "We lose on every item but make it up on volume," except that Hollywood has another way of making up the loss—the so-called back end, which includes home video (now mainly DVD) and TV licensing.

Home video is both more complex and more profitable. With the advent of the DVD, home video has become a vast retail business, with studios selling both new and past titles, as well as television programming such as The Sopranos, Friends, or Chappelle's Show, at wholesale prices that can go as low as $5 a DVD. Studios, which have meticulously analyzed these costs, estimate that manufacturing, shipping, and returns costs average 12.4 percent; marketing, advertising, and returns costs average 18.5 percent; and residuals paid to guilds and unions for their members and pension plans come to 2.65 percent. So, about two-thirds of video revenues are gross profits (which participants, such as stars, producers, and directors, may share in once the movie breaks even). In 2004, the studios' estimated video gross profit was $13.95 billion.

But the studios' real El Dorado is television. What makes television licensing, both at home and abroad, especially profitable for the studios is that virtually all the expenses required to market a television program, including tapes and advertising, are borne by the licensee. The studios only have to pay the residuals to the guilds and unions, which varies between movies and TV and average roughly 10 percent. The studios get to keep the other 90 percent. In 2004, this amounted to slightly more than $15.9 billion, making it the studios' single-richest source of profits.

This El Dorado comes from many tiers of the television industry. (Click here to see Table 2.) In 2004, studios made $3.9 billion from licensing their films, shorts, and TV series to the American broadcast networks—all of which are now owned by the corporate parents of the studios, creating a cozy, not to say incestuous, relationship. Another $4 billion came from licensing studio films to pay-per-view TV. All the studios have an "output" arrangement with pay-per-view TV channels to sell them an entire slate of films at fixed prices. Warner Bros., for example, sells all its films to its corporate sibling HBO, and Paramount sells all its films to its corporate sibling Showtime. Overseas, almost all the main pay-per-view TV outlets are owned or controlled by the studios' corporate parents. Finally, $9.8 billion comes from so-called library sales, through which the studios license their movies and TV programs over and over again to cable networks, local stations, and foreign broadcasters. Fifty-nine percent of this immense $17.7 billion of revenue from television licensing comes from America, which is not surprising, considering that on an average day fewer than 2 percent of Americans go to movie theaters, while more than 90 percent watch something at home on TV. And without these profits from TV, no Hollywood studio could survive.

Even though the television profit center is often overshadowed by the public's fascination with box-office results, it accounts for the direction Hollywood is taking in three significant ways. First, it explains the relentless marriages between the principal outlets for profitable entertainment—TV networks—and the Hollywood studios, which have been television's primary content-providers since 1970.

In 1970, the FCC passed the Financial-Syndication rule, which effectively took the television networks out of the business of producing their own television series. This rule prohibited television networks, but not movie studios, from having a financial interest in television programs broadcast by networks and then sold in syndication to local stations. By effectively removing the three networks from the syndication business, the FCC radically changed the economic landscape of television. Since it was not profitable to produce television series for their original run without owning the rights to sell them in syndication, the networks simply withdrew from television production. The movie studios were then able to dominate the business of making and owning television programs, which they then licensed to the networks for their original runs and afterwards sold in syndication to local stations as well as foreign stations. When the FCC lifted its Fin-Syn rule in 1995, the studios' corporate parents moved in to take control of major networks.

 

After Rupert Murdoch was unable to buy a network and boldly created his own Fox network, Michael Eisner bought both ABC and ESPN for Disney in 1995—a coup that changed not only Disney but the landscape of the entire entertainment economy. The other entertainment giants quickly followed suit. Today, the studios' corporate parents own or control all six over-the-air networks, as well as 64 cable networks, accounting for almost all the prime-time television audience. (Viacom, even after it is divided into two separate units, will be controlled by a single corporate parent—Sumner Redstone's National Amusement Inc.)

Second, it explains why so many of Hollywood's new leaders hail from TV. Robert Iger, Eisner's replacement as CEO at Disney, was president of ABC television; Sir Howard Stringer, the first non-Japanese chairman of Sony, was president of CBS television; Jeff Bewkes, the head of Time Warner's new Entertainment & Networks Group (which includes Warner Bros. and New Line), was president of HBO; Tom Freston, the new co-president of Viacom, was president of MTV; Peter Chernin, the president of the Fox Entertainment Group, was head of Fox Broadcasting; and Brad Grey, the new head of Paramount, was a television producer. Their ascensions simply confirmed that what used to be a business centered in movie houses has been transformed into a business centered around the TV in the home.

Finally, it explains why so-called studioless studios find it difficult to survive in Hollywood. The big six studios, with vast libraries of movies and TV programs, can count on this income flow no matter what happens at the box office or video stores. For example, even though Sony has a batch of movies this summer, its profitability is assured by the licensing fees flowing in from its library of more than 40,000 hours of movies and TV episodes. No such luck for the independent studios. With no comparable libraries, or, for that matter, corporate sibling alliances to ease their access, they need a constant quota of hits to keep their heads above water. Consider Dreamworks SKG, run by three of the most successful and creative executives in Hollywood's history—Steven Spielberg, Jeffrey Katzenberg, and David Geffen. Even though it still is in the black, Dreamworks was not able to produce anywhere near enough hits to prevent it from burning through a large part of of its capital, and is currently trying to sell itself to NBC Universal. The problem for these wannabe studios is that without a juicy slice of the $17.7 billion television pie, they cannot compete with the studios that have this rich cushion to fall back on.

The union between Hollywood and TV has paid off handsomely. The 2004 MPA Consolidated Sales Report—another confidential document—shows that the six studios' revenues from television licensing went from $6.8 billion in 1994 to $17.7 billion in 2004—a nearly $11 billion increase. And this does not include the fortunes that studios now earn from selling TV series on DVD. Unfortunately, Hollywood's movies are coming to play an ever-smaller part in the big picture.[PHP]
 
superion said:
I doubt the theatrical BO is just a fraction of the income.

.

Have you heard of Transporter? It only made 25 mil. out of its 41mil in costs, but it did really well in DVDS and they made a sequel.
 
Have you heard of Transporter? It only made 25 mil. out of its 41mil in costs, but it did really well in DVDS and they made a sequel.

The Transporter made about $41 million worldwide. But this is one of the few movies where the DVD income managed to turn a money loser into a profitable movie. However the cost involved for the Transporter was fairly low. Something like Hellboy or V cost twice as much or more so its far more doubtful those movies can recoup there losses with DVD sales.

That's why I would expect a Punisher sequel before Hellboy simply because of the cost involved. A Punisher sequel may even cost less yhen the original once you remove Travolta's salary from the equation.
 
superion said:
Why use Hellboy as a benchmark for anything? Hellboy cost $96 million dollars ($66 production and $30 marketing) and only made a little over $99 million worldwide. The studio loss tens of millions of dollars on Hellboy. Why they are discussing a sequel is beyond me?

Hellboy was also released 3 years ago so inflation has to be included in the calculation. The max amount V will make domestically is $75 million. Assuming it gets that it will need at least another $70 million overseas just to breakeven. But like Hellboy its overseas BO is lagging behind the domestic by quite a bit. V looks like another money loser just not as bad as Hellboy.
Hellboy didn't cost 96million to make and whocares if it was a huge failure. There is going to be a sequel and I'm very happy about that. Hell the Hulk and Daredevil sequels are all but dead in the water.
 
superion said:
Something like Hellboy or V cost twice as much or more so its far more doubtful those movies can recoup there losses with DVD sales.
As you can see from the articles, you are wrong. Today you can count on the fingers of one hand the real failures for studio movies. That's beacause worldwide marketing campaing raise the global awareness on the product, so that even if it doesn't make that much money in theatres, it will make them on TV and DVD sale and rentals.
 
At the end of the day, V is gonna make a lot of profit for WB from all these sources. Considering BO alone, it fits into what the industry calls "modest success", even if it doesn´t cover up all its costs, because it will have made enough to assume it will have a decent performance in the DVD and TV markets where the real profit is. If Alan Moore had made a V sequel, they´d be considering it by now.
 
Daredevil, Hulk, LOEG, Constantine and even Blade III made a larger percentage of its budget back at the BO then V probably will. There were no sequels to any of them.

As I said previously the numbers from the articles are inclusive of other product such as television series so you don't know how much of that DVD and television revenue is generated by movies and how much is generated by TV series like Friends and the Sopranos. Even with the movies there will be a few like the LOTR and Harry Potter films which will generate the majority of the income as they did at the BO.

The idea that every movie eventually becomes profitable is one I find hard to believe. The numbers for the Negotiator indicates the studio only kept $36.74 out of its worldwide BO of $88 million thats worse then the 55% used by BO Mojo. The film had a budget of $43.5 Million and incurred another $52.6 million in advertising and miscellaneous cost. That means the studiio needed to make some $59.6 million in DVD and television fees just to break even. Even if the movie does make that money how long would it have to be out on DVD and TV to do so. I doubt a studio would be happy spending nearly $100 million in a film in 2004 to get back $110 in 3 to 5 years from the various sources of income.

The only real way to test the idea that a movie like Constantine, Hellboy or the Hulk (the people on the Hulk boards insist this movie was extremely profitable even though at minimum it lost at least $27 million at the BO probably more based on the Negotiators numbers and the studio wanted no part of a sequel) became profitble is to get a breakdown of its revenue from DVD and TV licensing but that information does not appear to be widely available on an indivdual film basis.
 
Budget 54,000,000
Domestic: $63,821,000 + Foreign: $31,700,000 = Worldwide: $95,521,000
V made its budget back, and then some.
 
ZER0C00L said:
Budget 54,000,000
Domestic: $63,821,000 + Foreign: $31,700,000 = Worldwide: $95,521,000
V made its budget back, and then some.
But it's still a disappointment...
 
Its disappointing but atleast there not going to lose anything on it. They should get some money off dvd sales.
 
Out of that $95 million so far deduct half for the theaters and add another $25 to $30 million at least for advertising expenses.
 
superion said:
Out of that $95 million so far deduct half for the theaters and add another $25 to $30 million at least for advertising expenses.

You seem to have a personal "vendetta" against "V".

Why are you so determined to prove it is a failure?

I can tell you that the makers and the studio see it quite the opposite way.

It's not always of the #1 importance that a movie profits exponentially. Yes, millions are invested -- but don't you think that possibly, maybe the studio and the filmmakers might also be happy that they received reasonably positive reviews, often with praise (at least in terms of being an unusually smart "genre" pic), and that the film generated as much talk/discussion as it did?

Btw, your argument about Hellboy is a tricky one -- studio profit margins do not always incorporate marketing costs into overall budget and final tallies. In fact, until recent years, actual budgets themselves were almost never publicly acknowledged at all.

It only sets the studios up for over-eager criticism, which is exactly what's happening here.


[Excuse me, I know this is the "Box Office Tracking Thread" but I thought something needed to be said.]
:cool:
 
V is underrated people don't know what there missing.
I don't see it as a disapointment.

BATMAN BEGINS

Domestic Total Gross: $205,343,774 Production Budget: $150 million

that's pretty disapointing knowing how huge the buget was for that movie and the huge ad campange they had for it (most expensive ad campaign ever?). It made it up in DVD's and overseas sales.
 
V has done decent.

Batman Begins was very disappointing in the BO says WB. They were expecting alot more.
 
It figures since so much of what Hollywood puts out is absolute crap and garbage.
 
ZER0C00L said:
V is underrated people don't know what there missing.
I don't see it as a disapointment.

BATMAN BEGINS

Domestic Total Gross: $205,343,774 Production Budget: $150 million

that's pretty disapointing knowing how huge the buget was for that movie and the huge ad campange they had for it (most expensive ad campaign ever?). It made it up in DVD's and overseas sales.

WB really didn't advertise it a lot due to Batman and Robin obviously. But it did pretty good even with the lack of promotion.

To an extent I blame that figure on the people though. They couldn't accept that it was a new beginning for Batman, so they just didn't see it and thought it would be like Batman and Robin.
 
LastSunrise1981 said:
WB really didn't advertise it a lot due to Batman and Robin obviously. But it did pretty good even with the lack of promotion.

Wrong wrong wrong. They advertised it tons and even used some of the same techniques as Sony did with Spider-man 2.

It's simply that they underestimated the stink of Batman and Robin and how uphill it was for the movie to overcome it. Not just that but CINO as well.

To an extent I blame that figure on the people though. They couldn't accept that it was a new beginning for Batman, so they just didn't see it and thought it would be like Batman and Robin.

I can hardly blame people for not trusting Hollywood after crap like Batman and Robin. And releasing the movie LESS THAN A YEAR after Catwoman.
 

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