You Must Be Kidding Me? What's Up The The Butt Of The U.s.?

[The Question]

1. The US cannot just go willy-nilly into any part of the world it wants to restore order.

Restore order? Ummm, Iraq was a military dictatorship. There was plenty of order. Far too much, actually.

 

[War Lord]

Why was he systimatically killing 40,000 a year? For ****s and giggles?

Upwards, yes.

The article I posted represents a minimal amount that died, confirmable figures.

 

[The Question]

Upwards, yes.

The article I posted represents a minimal amount that died, confirmable figures.

Okay. But you said he killed one million people. How can you kill 40 thousand a year and only kill one million?

 

[War Lord]

Restore order? Ummm, Iraq was a military dictatorship. There was plenty of order. Far too much, actually.

Uh huh.

As long as there is stability, even if thousands are dying at the whim of the government, it's a good thing by your measure.

 

[War Lord]

Okay. But you said he killed one million people. How can you kill 40 thousand a year and only kill one million?

40,000 would represent an average. This means that some years, maybe only 10,000 might have died, whereas in other words, it was ramped up to 100,0000.

Over the course of 30 years, about a million died.

 

[The Question]

Uh huh.

As long as there is stability, even if thousands are dying at the whim of the government, it's a good thing by your measure.

Of course not. I'm just questioning as to how we can restore order to a place that already has an over abundance of order. And, generally speaking, a chaotic environment leads to more deaths than an orderly one.

 

[The Question]

40,000 would represent an average. This means that some years, maybe only 10,000 might have died, whereas in other words, it was ramped up to 100,0000.

Over the course of 30 years, about a million died.

I'd think, if this were the case, far more than a million would have died. If you kill an average of 40,000 people a year, you're going to get to a million in less than 30 years.

 

[War Lord]

Of course not. I'm just questioning as to how we can restore order to a place that already has an over abundance of order. And, generally speaking, a chaotic environment leads to more deaths than an orderly one.

It is chaotic, because you have the hand of Iran trying to create as much disorder as possible.

However, if you read sites like www.opinionjournal.com, it is apparent that the Iraqi government is making headway. It just takes patience.

 

[War Lord]

I'd think, if this were the case, far more than a million would have died. If you kill an average of 40,000 people a year, you're going to get to a million in less than 30 years.

It would be nice if we could say 1,157,456 people died because of Saddaam. An approximate number, determined as accurately as possible, is the best we can do. It's going to take 30 years to go through his files to find out exactly how bad it was.

There isn't a huge difference between 1 million and 1.2 million in terms of a yearly average.

 

[The Question]

It would be nice if we could say 1,157,456 people died because of Saddaam. An approximate number, determined as accurately as possible, is the best we can do. It's going to take 30 years to go through his files to find out exactly how bad it was.

There isn't a huge difference between 1 million and 1.2 million in terms of a yearly average.

Of course there's a difference. I just really need a body count from a truely objective source. One that isn't particularly pro or anti bush. That way, I'd be more certain that the numbers haven't been fudged.

It is chaotic, because you have the hand of Iran trying to create as much disorder as possible.



However, if you read sites like www.opinionjournal.com, it is apparent that the Iraqi government is making headway. It just takes patience.

I was talking about going into Iraq in the first place.

 

[blind_fury]

It would be nice if we could say 1,157,456 people died because of Saddaam. An approximate number, determined as accurately as possible, is the best we can do. It's going to take 30 years to go through his files to find out exactly how bad it was.

There isn't a huge difference between 1 million and 1.2 million in terms of a yearly average.

Right-wing propoganda. So far Bush's legacy is f--ked. Iraq is a mess. The only way to save face is to make Saddam into a Hitler, when in reality he was nothing more than an over-glorified serial killer..

 

[Erzengel]

You Must Be Kidding Me? What's Up The The Butt Of The U.s.?

Mexicans?

 

[newmexneon]

Why is a canadian supporting the actions of the U.S. Government?

 

[8Ball2/JanG5]

Why is a canadian supporting the actions of the U.S. Government?

You think they've always disagreed with us on everything?

 

[JLBats]

Why is a canadian supporting the actions of the U.S. Government?

Our current Conservative government maybe?

 

[Jspider13]

Budget for 2004
The military expenditure of the Department of Defense for 2004 was:

Total $437.111 Billion
Operations and maintenance $175.081 Bil.
Military Personnel $113.576 Bil.
Procurement $76.217 Bil.
Research & Development $60.756 Bil.
Military Construction $6.310 Bil.


Am I missing something?

Yes. Jack Bauer isn't on that list.

 

[War Lord]

Right-wing propoganda. So far Bush's legacy is f--ked. Iraq is a mess. The only way to save face is to make Saddam into a Hitler, when in reality he was nothing more than an over-glorified serial killer..

He built a nuclear reactor back in the 80's, which Israel destroyed. He's not just an international crank.

The Iraqi economy grew almost 20% since before the war, when Saddaam was in power.

 

[War Lord]

Of course there's a difference. I just really need a body count from a truely objective source. One that isn't particularly pro or anti bush. That way, I'd be more certain that the numbers haven't been fudged.

www.opinionjournal.com is a fairly objective source by any measure.

I was talking about going into Iraq in the first place.

Going to war with Iraq was inevitable, even Clinton publicly acknowledged that. Whether it be in 2003, 2008 or some other date.

 

[Jonathan Archer]

That hasn't been disproven. Thanks to the UN, Saddaam had a good year to hide or transport the stuff.

I'm sorry. I fail to see where the burden of proof lies...

 

[SuperDude]

Do you realize what you guys are doing? You're defending Saddam Hussein and his murderous dictatorship. Think about it. Go reread your posts and try to forget about how Bush is Satan and forget all the liberal vs. conservative garbage and just realize that you defending Saddam Hussein's dictatorship in which he killed so many people no one has an accurate count. And you are saying that the people in Iraq were better off under his dictatorship than they would be with a democratic government. Seriously. I sincerely hope your hate for the President has clouded your judgment and you are not actually advocating for a psychopathic dictator with absolute authority instead of a self-governing democracy. Because that's just crazy.

Also, most all you guys are saying that because the US did something in the past then we can't say it's wrong in the present and the future. Invasion and conquering of a sovereign nation, genocide, slavery; all things the US did in the past and all things that you are saying the US should just ignore now. Just because the US has done something in the past doesn't mean we can't say it's wrong. People can learn from their mistakes and realize something they have done is wrong, which would be great if any of those people were alive today. No one who was responsible for the Trail of Tears is alive today. No one who was responsible for taking land from the Native Americans is alive today. So there isn't even hypocrisy involved.

Now, I'm fairly certain that you guys don't actually think these things. You don't think that having a psycho, murderer dictator is better than a democracy and you don't think that the US should allow other countries to commit atrocities just because the US did it in the past, but that is what you are saying. And it's your strong dislike for this administration that is leading you to say these things. You're letting partisanism cloud your judgment. I'm not saying that others including myself don't do the same thing, it's somewhat of a pandemic these days, but I just thought I'd point it out because you're saying some ridiculous things and then accusing Jonty of having his head up Bush's butt.

Talk about calling the kettle black.

(And don't think that my conservatism has skewed what I have said in any way )

 

[Maxwell Smart]

And you are saying that the people in Iraq were better off under his dictatorship than they would be with a democratic government. Seriously. I sincerely hope your hate for the President has clouded your judgment and you are not actually advocating for a psychopathic dictator with absolute authority instead of a self-governing democracy. Because that's just crazy.

I don't think democracy is going to work in Iraq.

So whats better? Islamic theocracy(which is what will happen), or a secular dictatorship?

Hussein is estimated to have killed somewhere in the neighborhood of 200,000 innocent Iraqis I believe. And its estimated since the U.S. invasion in just 3 yearsover 100,000 have died, as opposed to a couple of hundred thousand over 30 years with Hussein. That means innocent people are now dying more often in Iraq than under Hussein's government. Also, Hussein was at least able to maintain civil order.

What is it exactly that has improved so much for the Iraqis since Hussein's been gone?

I say give Hussein a new haircut, buy him a new suit, and tell him "look, here are the keys, now behave yourself this time or we'll be back". Say what you want about that solution, but I'd take that over the Ayatollahs. Its gonna be one of these two, because theres about as much chance of democracy working in Iraq as there is for a fat guy to run a marathon.

 

[Maxwell Smart]

I wouldn't worry about China beefing up it's military. Japan will be safe as long as they have the Gundam army.

 

[War Lord]

I don't think democracy is going to work in Iraq.

So whats better? Islamic theocracy(which is what will happen), or a secular dictatorship?

Hussein is estimated to have killed somewhere in the neighborhood of 200,000 innocent Iraqis I believe. And its estimated since the U.S. invasion in just 3 yearsover 100,000 have died, as opposed to a couple of hundred thousand over 30 years with Hussein. That means innocent people are now dying more often in Iraq than under Hussein's government. Also, Hussein was at least able to maintain civil order.

What is it exactly that has improved so much for the Iraqis since Hussein's been gone?

I say give Hussein a new haircut, buy him a new suit, and tell him "look, here are the keys, now behave yourself this time or we'll be back". Say what you want about that solution, but I'd take that over the Ayatollahs. Its gonna be one of these two, because theres about as much chance of democracy working in Iraq as there is for a fat guy to run a marathon.

100,000 Iraqis have not died since the start of the war, the number is about 40,000, with at least 25,000 being from the terrorists.

If you're really interested in knowing how things have improved in Iraq, a good source is www.opinionjournal.com. Just type in good news in Iraq in the search engine.

To let Saddaam go, would be to interfere with Iraqi justice, which you guys claim that is not what you want. Plus, he'd have to kill another couple hundred thousand more Iraqi's, which of course, you claim, that you don't want that either.

I have the impression that you don't really care about the Iraqi people or anybody else living underneath a dictator as long as you can live your life peaceably and without interference. If a million people are being routinely tortured somewhere, that's ok as long as you have your playstation and Pepsi.

 

[Maxwell Smart]

Now you're catching on Jonty. I care very little about those people over there. That doesn't mean that I have anything against them. I wish them the best of luck but the United States has to solve its own problems. I've changed from more of an internationalist viewpoint, to a nationalist viewpoint.

Because when it comes down to it I think we should take care of our own first.

 

[Maxwell Smart]

100,000 Iraqis have not died since the start of the war, the number is about 40,000, with at least 25,000 being from the terrorists.

I stand by Amnesty International's figure.