You Must Be Kidding Me? What's Up The The Butt Of The U.s.?

[War Lord]

I stand by Amnesty International's figure.

And I stand by www.Iraqibodycount.com, which uses media sources as well as polling Iraqi's. I don't know what sources Amnesty uses.

 

[War Lord]

Now you're catching on Jonty. I care very little about those people over there. That doesn't mean that I have anything against them. I wish them the best of luck but the United States has to solve its own problems. I've changed from more of an internationalist viewpoint, to a nationalist viewpoint.

Because when it comes down to it I think we should take care of our own first.

Well, guess what, by being over there, we are taking care of our own. Those Jihadi terrorists would be working their way onto our shores if we had left Iraq alone and you'd have that problem here, instead of on some distant shore. The fact that we are over there has drawn those terrorists into Iraq instead of allowing themselves time and ability to come over here.

The problem is that Islam is on one of it's expanist phases and they hate the US for being in the way.

 

[Maxwell Smart]

Well, guess what, by being over there, we are taking care of our own. Those Jihadi terrorists would be working their way onto our shores if we had left Iraq alone and you'd have that problem here, instead of on some distant shore. The fact that we are over there has drawn those terrorists into Iraq instead of allowing themselves time and ability to come over here.

No they aren't. Do you honestly think we'd be fighting these guys in Hot Springs, Arkansas if we hadn't invaded Iraq? Many of the Islamist fighters in Iraq are foreign and are able to be there because we invaded Iraq and toppled Hussein. The rest, those who are domestic, were muzzled under Hussein. We've TURNED the country into not only a terrorist training ground(just like the Soviets did to Afghanistan in the 1980s), but the biggest recruiting poster for Osama bin Laden to date.

And because of our folly in desposing of Hussein, another theocracy will be established in the Middle east. You can take that one to the bank.

 

[War Lord]

No they aren't. Do you honestly think we'd be fighting these guys in Hot Springs, Arkansas if we hadn't invaded Iraq? Many of the Islamist fighters in Iraq are foreign and are able to be there because we invaded Iraq and toppled Hussein. The rest, those who are domestic, were muzzled under Hussein. We've TURNED the country into not only a terrorist training ground(just like the Soviets did to Afghanistan in the 1980s), but the biggest recruiting poster for Osama bin Laden to date.

And because of our folly in desposing of Hussein, another theocracy will be established in the Middle east. You can take that one to the bank.

Nobody goes to Arkansas.

Saddam was training terrorists.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110008174

Like it or not, Iraq was going to have to be dealt with militarily at some point. It was better to do it now, than later.

Iraq is not a terrorist training ground, because we keep killing them. They might have killed around 3,000 of our guys, but we have killed at least 15,000 of their guys.

 

[War Lord]

It would be nice if there were figures broken down showing how many people that have died in Iraq were innocent Iraqi's and how many of them were Jihadi's. It would probably be helpful in helping you see the light on this.

 

[The Question]

Do you realize what you guys are doing? You're defending Saddam Hussein and his murderous dictatorship.

No, I'm not.

Think about it. Go reread your posts and try to forget about how Bush is Satan and forget all the liberal vs. conservative garbage and just realize that you defending Saddam Hussein's dictatorship in which he killed so many people no one has an accurate count. And you are saying that the people in Iraq were better off under his dictatorship than they would be with a democratic government. Seriously. I sincerely hope your hate for the President has clouded your judgment and you are not actually advocating for a psychopathic dictator with absolute authority instead of a self-governing democracy. Because that's just crazy.

I'm not. Nor did I ever say that. I said that while Saddaam was a horrible ruler, we've only made things worse. Because of our invading Iraq, the country's been thrown into chaos. They're on the brink of a civil war. The body count has risen. Listen, I'm not saying Saddaam's a nice guy. I never have. But the whole situation is a classic mafia scenario. Let's say the FBI takes out a powerful crime boss who's been in power for decades. He's in jail. Ding dong the witch is dead. Hooray. However, the gang wars that insue now that his territory is left unchecked are often times worse than the crime boss being in power in the first place.

Also, most all you guys are saying that because the US did something in the past then we can't say it's wrong in the present and the future. Invasion and conquering of a sovereign nation, genocide, slavery; all things the US did in the past and all things that you are saying the US should just ignore now.

I never said that. I was simply trying to illustrait that we can't really take the moral high ground since we have a very long history of ignoring our own morals. And that's because of human error. People, when given power, can be very very corrupt. It's happened in this country and many others before, and it will happen again. But then, that's not really the point. I don't think we should ignore the suffering ion the world. But I do think that the way we're handling it is the absolutey wrong way to go about it. We can't just go into a country who's ruler we're morally aposed to, destroy the government, and tell the people "you're free." World doesn't work like that. Things are alot more complex. And, as seen in Iraq, it only makes things worse.

Just because the US has done something in the past doesn't mean we can't say it's wrong.

Of course. But it's how we're handling it that I have a problem with.

People can learn from their mistakes and realize something they have done is wrong, which would be great if any of those people were alive today. No one who was responsible for the Trail of Tears is alive today. No one who was responsible for taking land from the Native Americans is alive today. So there isn't even hypocrisy involved.

I know. But my point is tjhat we can't enforce morality on the world if our country is incapable of being morally pure.

Now, I'm fairly certain that you guys don't actually think these things. You don't think that having a psycho, murderer dictator is better than a democracy and you don't think that the US should allow other countries to commit atrocities just because the US did it in the past, but that is what you are saying.

No, it's not what I'm saying. You're putting words in my mouth. I never said a dictatorship was better than a democracy. I said that by going into Iraq the way we have, we've only made things worse. More people are dying now than the numbers under Saddaam's rule. The country's in chaos, and the second our troops leave it will only get worse. And I enver said we should trun a blind eye to the suffering in the world. What I said is that we shouldn't force the world to be better, because thinsg just aren't that simple.

And it's your strong dislike for this administration that is leading you to say these things.

It's because the administraition has done these things that I dsilike it. We shouldn't have gone into Iraq. Saddaaam would still have been in power, but Iraq would still have been better off than it is now. The place is in a state of chaos, and it will only escelate when our troops leave. More likely than not, it will go into a full on civil war after we leave. Are you telling me that that is them being better off?

You're letting partisanism cloud your judgment. I'm not saying that others including myself don't do the same thing, it's somewhat of a pandemic these days, but I just thought I'd point it out because you're saying some ridiculous things and then accusing Jonty of having his head up Bush's butt.

I'm not saying ridiculous things. You're twisting what I say to sound ridiculous.

 

[The Question]

Iraq is not a terrorist training ground, because we keep killing them. They might have killed around 3,000 of our guys, but we have killed at least 15,000 of their guys.

You don't get it. Our actions in Iraq have turned it into a breeding ground for terrorist mentality. We've created a new generation of people who hate us. Because of our actions these, thousands have died and the country is chaotic.

 

[War Lord]

You don't get it. Our actions in Iraq have turned it into a breeding ground for terrorist mentality. We've created a new generation of people who hate us. Because of our actions these, thousands have died and the country is chaotic.

No. The war in Iraq simply exposed what was being bred already.

The terrorists are not Iraqi's, but Sauds, Yemen's and other nationalities.

 

[raybia]

The problem is that Islam is on one of it's expanist phases and they hate the US for being in the way.

This is not an issue of Al-Islam. The middle-east is just a minority portion of the World-wide Islamic community.

As a Muslim who is also American I don't hate the U.S. and I don't know of any personally who do, so to categorically state that all Muslims hate the US is both demeaning and dangerous. I do have a problem though with our domestic and foreign policy, especially the latter as I feel its oppressive whether unintentional or not.

Those Muslims in other parts of the who hate the US, don't feel that way merely due to there religious identity but in great part a result of their nationality and the foreign policy of the U.S. Government on their nation. The U.S foreign policy of third-world nations is having a direct adverse affect of their day to day existence of the masses of those countries.

You will find that any hatred of U.S. foreign policy is not restricted to Muslim populated Third-world countries but many other of those countries as well where the masses continue to live in poverty and corruption in spite of the U.S. involvment into their affairs.

I ask you to be more responsible and considerate in your comments before labeling an entire group of people who total over 1.3 billion who besides sharing a religious affliation are as diverse as the human race itself.

There are many others factors besides constantly singling out and blaming religion as THE reason and having blinders on towards considering other reasons.

Those reasons include Nationality, Ethnicity, Culturalism, Historical consideration, ideology, educational status, socio/economic status, colonialism/Imperialism, etc. When it comes to religion there is also religious dogma to consider as well. These are just some of the reasons that effect the way people think, behave and respond to various situations and conditions.

I ask you to please expound on your comment that "Islam is on one of it's expanist phases" before I respond.

 

[The Question]

No. The war in Iraq simply exposed what was being bred already.

Ans the war's making things worse. We've bred a new generation of people who hate us.

The terrorists are not Iraqi's, but Sauds, Yemen's and other nationalities.

I'd more of the new ones are Iraqi.

 

[War Lord]

Ans the war's making things worse. We've bred a new generation of people who hate us.



I'd more of the new ones are Iraqi.

That's not true. The terrorists have been bred for the last 50 years, that's a lot of terrorists, war or not.

All the war has done is brought them out in the open.

As far as I know, the composition hasn't really changed. It's still mostly Sauds, with some Yemeni's and others.

 

[War Lord]

This is not an issue of Al-Islam. The middle-east is just a minority portion of the World-wide Islamic community.

As a Muslim who is also American I don't hate the U.S. and I don't know of any personally who do, so to categorically state that all Muslims hate the US is both demeaning and dangerous. I do have a problem though with our domestic and foreign policy, especially the latter as I feel its oppressive whether unintentional or not.

Those Muslims in other parts of the who hate the US, don't feel that way merely due to there religious identity but in great part a result of their nationality and the foreign policy of the U.S. Government on their nation. The U.S foreign policy of third-world nations is having a direct adverse affect of their day to day existence of the masses of those countries.

You will find that any hatred of U.S. foreign policy is not restricted to Muslim populated Third-world countries but many other of those countries as well where the masses continue to live in poverty and corruption in spite of the U.S. involvment into their affairs.

I ask you to be more responsible and considerate in your comments before labeling an entire group of people who total over 1.3 billion who besides sharing a religious affliation are as diverse as the human race itself.

There are many others factors besides constantly singling out and blaming religion as THE reason and having blinders on towards considering other reasons.

Those reasons include Nationality, Ethnicity, Culturalism, Historical consideration, ideology, educational status, socio/economic status, colonialism/Imperialism, etc. When it comes to religion there is also religious dogma to consider as well. These are just some of the reasons that effect the way people think, behave and respond to various situations and conditions.

I ask you to please expound on your comment that "Islam is on one of it's expanist phases" before I respond.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1214797/posts

 

[Maxwell Smart]

That's not true. The terrorists have been bred for the last 50 years, that's a lot of terrorists, war or not.

All the war has done is brought them out in the open.

Wrong. The Islamist movement stated in the 1970s, and terrorist activity expanded during the 1980s, mainly due to the war in Afghanistan which provided ample training ground for Jihadis to become trained terrorist. Just as Iraq does today. Islamists from all over can come and fight the infidels, and learn combat skills while doing it. Just like Afghanistan in the 80s.

Osama bin Laden has been saying for years that the West is just trying to destroy Islam and control the Arab world. By invading Iraq without a proper justification(and no matter how much you think it was justified in the eyes of the Muslim world it was not and that is what matters in this case), all we did was prove his words true. Our invasion of Iraq created a whole new legion of eager fighters.

 

[Maxwell Smart]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1214797/posts

I'm not reading that crap. Posting anything from the Freep creeps is equivalent to me posting an article from Pravda as a source.

 

[War Lord]

Wrong. The Islamist movement stated in the 1970s, and terrorist activity expanded during the 1980s, mainly due to the war in Afghanistan which provided ample training ground for Jihadis to become trained terrorist. Just as Iraq does today. Islamists from all over can come and fight the infidels, and learn combat skills while doing it. Just like Afghanistan in the 80s.

Osama bin Laden has been saying for years that the West is just trying to destroy Islam and control the Arab world. By invading Iraq without a proper justification(and no matter how much you think it was justified in the eyes of the Muslim world it was not and that is what matters in this case), all we did was prove his words true. Our invasion of Iraq created a whole new legion of eager fighters.

And of course, you believe Osama. A man who is at war with the West.

 

[Maxwell Smart]

And of course, you believe Osama. A man who is at war with the West.

What the hell are you on about? It doesn't matter if *I* believe it. Millions of people in the Middle East believe it, and that is the problem.

 

[sinewave]

Well, guess what, by being over there, we are taking care of our own. Those Jihadi terrorists would be working their way onto our shores if we had left Iraq alone and you'd have that problem here, instead of on some distant shore. The fact that we are over there has drawn those terrorists into Iraq instead of allowing themselves time and ability to come over here.

The problem is that Islam is on one of it's expanist phases and they hate the US for being in the way.

please don't try to claim you're american. it makes us look bad.

 

[The Overlord]

Uh huh.

As long as there is stability, even if thousands are dying at the whim of the government, it's a good thing by your measure.

Your forgetting one thing, people prefer systematic violence to randomized violence. With systematic violence people can feel safe and assume that some other person will be killed by the government, with radomized violence anyone could be killed at any time, so no one feels safe. This why the taliban first took control of Afghanistan, because people were tired of the feuding warlords. By removing Saddam without a proper plan, Iraq now is in state of randomized violence and are thus likley to create a new dictatorship to end it.

 

[The Question]

That's not true. The terrorists have been bred for the last 50 years, that's a lot of terrorists, war or not.

All the war has done is brought them out in the open.

As far as I know, the composition hasn't really changed. It's still mostly Sauds, with some Yemeni's and others.

And we've still made things worse. We've bred a new generation of people who hate us by our actions there.

 

[War Lord]

please don't try to claim you're american. it makes us look bad.

Canada is #6 on Osama's list.

 

[raybia]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1214797/posts

This article is mere fodder.

You providing me this link as a reference to your Islam expansion comment indicates to me that you accept this baseless chunk of garbage that lists NO sources or references to said information whatsover.

Disappointing that you accept conjecture and centuries old propaganda, that has been spewed since the cursades, over doing your own research from the very source of Al-Islam:The Qur'an along with scholarly works from both the Islamic and non-Islam world.

For those who would like to study Islam for a more scholarly objectively point of view, I recommend works by the following:

Imam W. Deen Mohammed
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...103-8110431-8130220?s=books&v=glance&n=283155


Karen Armstrong

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/08...103-8110431-8130220?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

Bernard Lewis
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/01...0431-8130220?_encoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=283155


John L. Esposito
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/01...103-8110431-8130220?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

Jeffrey Lang
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/09...103-8110431-8130220?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

Tariq Ramadan
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/01...103-8110431-8130220?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

Also a very good book called. "Covering Islam : How the Media and the Experts Determine How We See the Rest of the World" by Edward Said.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/06...103-8110431-8130220?s=books&v=glance&n=283155


About false claim of Islam as the fastest growing religion

http://www.menj.org/fastest/


Article about whether Islam teaches the killing of Apostasy

http://www.islamicperspectives.com/Apostasy1.htm

 

[lazur]

You don't get it. Our actions in Iraq have turned it into a breeding ground for terrorist mentality. We've created a new generation of people who hate us. Because of our actions these, thousands have died and the country is chaotic.

Man, talk about repeating media nonsense and liberal talking points. Do you really believe that?

ANY middle eastern country we enter turns into a 'breeding ground' for terrorists. And when we DON'T enter them, the terrorists COME HERE - thus, 9/11. We either confront them here, or we confront them there.

Now, had we NOT gone into Iraq, where do you think this 'breeding ground' would have been?? Oh yeah, how about Afghanistan? That's right, and most people believe going into Afghanistan was the RIGHT thing to do.

Had we not gone into Iraq, we'd still be fighting and dying AS MUCH as we are in Iraq. Hell, probably more so because you'd also have the Taliban in greater force teaming up against us.

Think about it.

 

[The Question]

Man, talk about repeating media nonsense and liberal talking points. Do you really believe that?

Yes. I do. Because it makes sense.

ANY middle eastern country we enter turns into a 'breeding ground' for terrorists. And when we DON'T enter them, the terrorists COME HERE - thus, 9/11. We either confront them here, or we confront them there.

We didn't even go into Iraq for the terrorists. The reason it's become a breeding griund is because we've basically created a new generation of people who hate us. We're basically making more terrorists by being there.

Now, had we NOT gone into Iraq, where do you think this 'breeding ground' would have been?? Oh yeah, how about Afghanistan? That's right, and most people believe going into Afghanistan was the RIGHT thing to do.

What the hell are you talking about? We went into Afganistan to get Bin Laden. The guy atacked us, we go after him. And we ****ed that up. He's still on the run. Had we not gone into Iraq, the "breeding ground" wouldn't have happened. At least, not to the extent that it is. Because of our intervention there, we've thrown the country into chaos. And alot of people are placing the blame on us. We are, as I've said, creating a new generation of people who hate us.

Had we not gone into Iraq, we'd still be fighting and dying AS MUCH as we are in Iraq.

No, we wouldn't. Because we wouldn't be in Iraq.

Hell, probably more so because you'd also have the Taliban in greater force teaming up against us.

.....why? Didn't we get rid of the Taliban five years ago?

 

[The Overlord]

Had we not gone into Iraq, we'd still be fighting and dying AS MUCH as we are in Iraq. Hell, probably more so because you'd also have the Taliban in greater force teaming up against us.

Think about it.

That makes no sense, with the Iraq War, the US is fighting a war on fronts, nif not for the Iraq war, the US would have more troops to stablize Afghanistan in the first place.

 

[lazur]

This is so nonsensical, it's hardly even worth replying to, but I will ... this time. Truthfully, though, you've answered all of your own questions.

Yes. I do. Because it makes sense.

Uh huh, if you're close-minded enough to believe all of this reasoning power you have is shared by Al Qaeda.

We didn't even go into Iraq for the terrorists. The reason it's become a breeding griund is because we've basically created a new generation of people who hate us. We're basically making more terrorists by being there.

The same way we'd have 'made more terrorists' by being in Afghanistan.

What the hell are you talking about? We went into Afganistan to get Bin Laden. The guy atacked us, we go after him. And we ****ed that up. He's still on the run. Had we not gone into Iraq, the "breeding ground" wouldn't have happened. At least, not to the extent that it is. Because of our intervention there, we've thrown the country into chaos. And alot of people are placing the blame on us. We are, as I've said, creating a new generation of people who hate us.

Umm, we're fighting Al Qaeda in Iraq. That's the primary resistance we're running into. And, oh yeah, you know, like Bin Laden is the leader??

So you're saying that the Al Qaeda would have been OKAY with us going after their boss in Afghanistan, but somehow it's wrong in their eyes for us to enter Iraq and take out Saddam, someone they were supposedly 'not affiliated' with?? Why would they care MORE for someone they're NOT affiliated with than they would for someone they ARE not only affiliated with, but also WORK FOR???

.....why? Didn't we get rid of the Taliban five years ago?

Why can't an exterminator get rid of all ants forever after one spraying? It's impossible. And besides, what you're advocating is wiping out an entire group of people because of their beliefs - not their actions. And Bush is the nazi?