MCU: The Marvel Cinematic Universe Official Discussion - Part 2

[TeeKay]

 

[Loki882]

Disagree.

That Hydra could keep a guy with a cyborg arm on ice and unfreeze him for the occasional assassination was far-fetched, but still worked. That Shield itself , an intensely secret and well resourced security organization, could be completely infiltrated by a group like Hydra......that was a bit much (I mean MI-5 was infiltrated by 5 KGB double- agents but do you really think the CIA or ISA could be effectively taken over by a neo-nazi group ? )

But that's not really the point, the real point is that it doesn't force Cap to make a difficult choice - because Hydra are so obviously and intrinsically evil. To me that's not a particularly interesting choice at all.

But if you like Cap just the way he is, and most people seem to , then fair enough. I don't, and still enjoyed TWS.

No they weren't. SHIELD was NOT a secret organization. They had a massive HQ building in the middle of Washington DC. On AOS, they slap their logo on everything, vehicles, equipment, coffee mugs, everything. They were NOT secret, anymore than the CIA is secret. Everyone knows that they exist and has a genera idea of what they do, it's just specifics that are secret. Hell their leader (Pierce) was offered the freaking Noble Peace Prize for goodness' sake.

And considering that SHIELD was willing to hire ex-Nazi's after WWII (BTW, the CIA and MI6 did the same thing in real life, Project Paperclip was a real thing). And they're willing to not only hire former terrorists/assassins/murderers like Black Widow, but give them high-ranking positions, yes I can buy them being infiltrated and corrupted. It's not the HYDRA people advertised the fact that they were HYDRA. They were sleeper agents pretending to be normal SHIELD agents. Oh and SHIELD has been taken over by villains in the comics before as well, so there's that as well.

 

[sabetoonth]

It was also made clear that HYDRA had been within SHIELD nearly from go after the war.

 

[Shikamaru]

I don't even know where to begin the responses. I kinda disagree with everyone here, to varying degrees. But I'll try to keep it short.

First, the idea that Cap represents the values of 1941 is false. That may be true for Ultimate Captain America, but 616/MCU Cap is everything America *should* stand for. He is the embodiment of the best values America has to offer even when they're not put into the best practice, despite coming from a time when racism, misogyny and propaganda were very common. There were plenty of ***holes in both 1941 and 2014. The First Avenger demonstrated that perfectly, especially with the grenade scene. Cap wouldn't agree with the prejudice going on today, nor would he be fine with the internment of Japanese Americans during WWII.

Second, regarding Cap's character arc in TWS...it's not about deciding between being a government stooge and thinking for himself. That's always been a part of his character, and he's been questioning SHIELD since the events of Avengers where his character arc was all about realizing there is still a need for his existence in the modern world. TWS takes that character arc and progresses it to the next level. It's about Cap learning where he belongs in the modern world, how to adapt to it without losing his core principles, and ultimately making the decision no one else could make (or were too hesitant to make). Several characters throughout the film tell him to give in to the new world and start anew, from Peggy to Fury to Pierce. "Sometimes to build a better world, you have to tear the old one down." That's what HYDRA believes and is their justification for their actions. He then takes that advice and spins it on its head by deciding to abolish SHIELD and HYDRA altogether, because they're two sides of the same coin. I'm sorry if you expected a more radical change in Cap's character, but Cap is more of a character who changes the world around him than himself. He has that in common with Batman. They both refuse to let anything change them as people or to compromise their worldview.

Which brings me to my third point...a character doesn't have to drastically change in order to be developed or three-dimensional, they just have to be given an opportunity for change. Whether or not they take that opportunity is what informs their character, and that's the basis of a character study. TWS is a great character study for Steve Rogers in that regard, because it's a fantastic love letter to everything the character embodies, what he really represents and how he refuses to let anything or anyone change him for the worse. If you ever thought Cap was a propaganda character, TWS is the film to prove you wrong. I believe that's what the Russo's set out to do.

Fourth, the idea that having HYDRA as the villains in TWS is a copout and takes away from the social commentary, because it's about *who* pushes the buttons as opposed to the buttons being pushed. I've heard that criticism before, and I don't think it a valid one. The message is that the world's become very grey-shaded, and the "good guys" here to protect and serve are in no way different from the stereotypical bad guys when you get deep down into it. It's why Steve decided both HYDRA and SHIELD needed to go down, because they were two sides of the same coin. Even the "good" agents like Fury have still been conditioned to adapt HYDRA's philosophy and point guns at the whole world. If anything, it's a rather controversial point to argue that a modern government institution can be the equivalent of the Nazi's.

Also, the KGB analogy doesn't really apply. They made it clear HYDRA infiltrated SHIELD right at its inception, and it's also commentary on how the Allies recruited former Nazi scientists after the war.

Fifth, the idea that Batman has no character arc in TDK...not true. The film is about him learning that Batman is who he is and there is no escape from it. "I've seen what I have to become to stop men like him", and in the end, he becomes that. The film is also a character study of what separates Batman from other vigilantes/the police/DA/ordinary citizens, as well as a study of the Batman/Joker dynamic. That's as far as I'll go into it, since this is the MCU thread.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

I don't even know where to begin the responses.

I kinda disagree with everyone here, to varying degrees.

My eyes glaze over more and more with each new wall of argumentative text. Hopefully soon we'll get back to actual important topics, like how in the hell are they going to squeeze CapWolf into the next movie?

 

[Lilbaz]

In the Cinematic Universe is Thanos from Titan? If so are we likely to see the Eternals before Avengers Infinity?

 

[eddy]

Is anyone else confused as to why Ant-Man is Phase II? The Phases should end with Avengers movies acting as the big finale.

I'm hoping it's because they want to slot a surprise extra film into phase 3 called 'Wasp', but ar waiting on the reception to Ant Man first.

But I know it's unlikely.

If Marvel continues to release 3 films a year then there will be 2 more films in 2019 after Infinity War 2 so maybe there will be another one-off film after A3pt2.(Runaways please).

I think that was the plan all along because wasn't Antman suppose come out in November this year but then they moved it because of Edgar dropping out. I could be wrong.

No. Antman was slotted in November 2015 then they moved it to July 2015 after BvS moved.

 

[Iceman]

Captain Marvel is being introduced very late in this plan so I hope she has a big future after IW2. Same goes for the Inhumans.

 

[PunyGod]

In the Cinematic Universe is Thanos from Titan? If so are we likely to see the Eternals before Avengers Infinity?

He was called The Mad Titan in GOTG.

 

[Lilbaz]

He was called The Mad Titan in GOTG.

Thanks. Hope we get to see a few Eternals before Infinity. Eros and Sersi were both Avengers. Anyone else?

 

[ralphuniverse]

G'day,

Not sure about that. Feige has said no more origin movies but they still need to explain her origin story. I expect that to happen in Infinity War Part 1. We may see pre Captain Marvel Carol Danvers even earlier.

Also the Inhumans are clearly being introduced in Agents of SHIELD.

ta

Ralph

Captain Marvel is being introduced very late in this plan so I hope she has a big future after IW2. Same goes for the Inhumans.

 

[PunyGod]

Feige has said no more origin movies

If he really said that I am glad because I am sick and tired of origin movies. I am pleased that both Marvel and DC are introducing characters in other movies before giving them their solo adventure. Doctor Strange might be an exception to this though.

 

[Lilbaz]

G'day,

Not sure about that. Feige has said no more origin movies but they still need to explain her origin story. I expect that to happen in Infinity War Part 1. We may see pre Captain Marvel Carol Danvers even earlier.

Also the Inhumans are clearly being introduced in Agents of SHIELD.

ta

Ralph

Have you got a link to the interview?

In August he said this about Strange:

With Strange, it is a classic Marvel origin story because he’s got one of the best origins ever. And it’s our opportunity to take that left turn into the supernatural. Now, what is the definition of supernatural? It varies. We like the idea of playing with alternate dimensions. The very sort of crazy – [Steve] Ditko crazy acid trip way of traveling through dimensions and traveling through other realms is something that we think is very, very cool … playing with the perceptions of reality.

 

[Lilbaz]

Also this from Screen Rant in March:

"Frankly if we do a Black Widow movie after 'Age of Ultron,' when she's been central in three or four movies I don't think we'd get the quote unquote credit for it. People would say 'She's already a big giant superhero!' But if we had a great idea, we'd do it.
"I like the idea if we're going to do a [female lead] do a new one. Do a wholly new character, do an origin story."
Finally Feige admits, "We've talked a lot about [Captain Marvel]. I think that would be very cool."

 

[Iceman]

G'day,

Not sure about that. Feige has said no more origin movies but they still need to explain her origin story. I expect that to happen in Infinity War Part 1. We may see pre Captain Marvel Carol Danvers even earlier.

Also the Inhumans are clearly being introduced in Agents of SHIELD.

ta

Ralph

G'day!

I don't really want all the solo movies to be origin movies, wasn't suggesting that.
I just hope we see a lot more of these characters after IW2 as they won't have had much exposure relative to the big guns introduced in Phase 1. Really looking forward to seeing a frontline super-powered female on the MCU's books.

 

[Johnny-Oh]

I don't know why people dislike origin stories so much, as someone who never read comics I enjoy watching how and why they became superheros.

 

[Mike Murdock]

I like origin stories. I dislike seeing origin stories more than once (i.e., every time there is a reboot). I also sometimes like just getting into the thick of the character rather than having to wait awhile for the character to get his footing.

Doctor Strange, for example, is described as having an iconic origin story. It didn't debut in issue one. It took a little while before it appeared. The point was to already have him established as the Sorcerer Supreme right from the beginning and only then take a break to tell the origin story.

 

[Iceman]

Strange, Panther and Marvel are possibly the 3 Avengers-related solos I most wanted right now. I guess Vision could be amazing but I don't expect to see him in a solo.

 

[PunyGod]

I don't know why people dislike origin stories so much, as someone who never read comics I enjoy watching how and why they became superheros.

A few reasons:

1. Certain origin stories (Superman, Batman, et al.) are known to every person on earth and don't need retelling.

2. Most origin stories end up being basically the same and just feel perfunctory and boring.

3. They are often the least interesting part of a character's arc.

4. Comic books and cartoons frequently skip the origin and get right to the character in action. Hollywood seems terrified of this concept but they did it with Batman 89 with only a few flashbacks.

5. Everything doesn't have to be totally spelled out and spoonfed to the audience (hello Batman Begins). Not knowing is OK.

 

[Lilbaz]

I like origin stories. I dislike seeing origin stories more than once (i.e., every time there is a reboot). I also sometimes like just getting into the thick of the character rather than having to wait awhile for the character to get his footing.

Doctor Strange, for example, is described as having an iconic origin story. It didn't debut in issue one. It took a little while before it appeared. The point was to already have him established as the Sorcerer Supreme right from the beginning and only then take a break to tell the origin story.

Agree 100%.

 

[InternetPeople]

Everything doesn't have to be spelled out? Do you read the comments around here?

 

[PunyGod]

Everything doesn't have to be spelled out? Do you read the comments around here?

Not really. So people here don't like mystery?

 

[Hypestyle]

So what's this role LL Cool J is supposed to be playing? Hero? Villain? Supporting character?

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

I think origin stories are important to the development of a character. What I don't like is this recent habit of rebooting a franchise and redoing the origin every ten years.

 

[Heretic]

We should be able to go GENERATIONS without a reboot. The companies should all know by now that billions of dollars can be made on these properties, so make long term plans for them. Even back in the day, it is stunning that Sony didn't have Spider-Man 1-10 mapped out in their heads. Sure, they'd have to change actors...but I think that people understand that actors get a year older every year just like they do.