Ridin’ with Biden

[DarthSkywalker]

This is the part where I point out if Sanders were president this still would not be happening right now because of the parliamentarian. Also if Sanders won the R governor probably would’ve replaced him with an R so the the Rs would be in the majority in the Senate..

This assumes it all played out the same, heck that Bernie would have won. Too much assuming. One thing I know would have happened already if Bernie was in charge? Student debt relief. He'd also would not be running from any executive order that could theoretically help people.

 

[InCali]

Proven my suspicions right that he's likely going to be a lousy President, albeit an improvement over the previous administration? I'm not going to give him props for doing the bare minimum (COVID relief bill which really should have been done and actually creating a plan for COVID vaccine distribution). The fact that the things you listed should be touted as achievements instead of being a complete indictment on the failures of the previous administration says a lot about how much the Trump administration completely ruined this country's perception of what is normal.

I don't expect him to "waive his hand and fulfil all campaign promises in 60 days", but going a month without bombing the Middle East, and not completely wussing out on the minimum wage or cancelling student debt would have been nice.

How should Biden have handled the minimum wage issue?

 

[InCali]

This is factually false. They can. They refuse to. There is a difference. If the Dems can't get their caucus in order, whose fault is it, outside of the party, which includes the president?

When you blame "the Dems", you are hanging a yoke around the necks of not just Biden, but also the Warrens and Sanders of the party. The party is made up of individuals and it's not the fault of some that the Manchins and Sinemas of the world won't take the necessary steps to end the filibuster. That single step would clear the way for a lot to get done.

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

Iran was accused of attacking U.S. soldiers with rockets that’s the claimed reason for retaliation.

The detention center is meant to reunite lost children with their families. Not Trump’s policy of indefinite detention and abduction away from their families as they adopt them out to strangers.

Grafting the minimum wage onto COVID relief isn’t the only way that can be done.

Biden only ran on canceling a small amount of student debt not the 5x amount others are now demanding.

COVID relief bill is coming along they have to revote the bill in the house and senate because that is how the sausage is made. Slowly, that’s how.

 

[InCali]

I still wonder if statehood for Puerto Rico could be done via reconciliation. The over 3M people in PR currently don't pay federal taxes. That would be a substantial revenue stream.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

When you blame "the Dems", you are hanging a yoke around the necks of not just Biden, but also the Warrens and Sanders of the party. The party is made up of individuals and it's not the fault of some that the Manchins and Sinemas of the world won't take the necessary steps to end the filibuster. That single step would clear the way for a lot to get done.

Bernie calls this stuff out. Warren calls this stuff out. Hell, Schumer already called out Biden on student loan debt.

 

[souvlaki]

How should Biden have handled the minimum wage issue?

I mentioned up thread that Sanders was looking into basically forcing it as a tax against large corporations that choose to pay under $15 which is better than Biden's response of basically throwing up his hands and saying it's out of his control.

But once again, the minimum wage increase isn't even what I'm talking about. Biden already disappointed me by briefly toying with the idea of lowering the threshold for the stimulus check (after already stating right out of the gate that it was going to be $1400 instead of $2000), passing the buck to congress on student debt relief, detention camps and then the bombing. His condescending tone to the people that actually voted for him while trying to work with the people that literally supported a President that tried to overthrow the government also didn't win any points with me.

 

[InCali]

Bernie calls this stuff out. Warren calls this stuff out. Hell, Schumer already called out Biden on student loan debt.

Still are "Dems" and the fact still remains that it's the Manchins and Sinemas are the ones blocking this stuff. Biden never, that I can remember, said anything about canceling 50K of student debt. You can disagree with him (I do), but he's not walking back. He supported the minimum wage provision, but once the parliamentarian made that ruling, it was effectively dead as Manchin, not Biden, Warren or Sanders said they wouldn't support the bill after this type of ruling. Biden has no choice, but to "respect" the ruling unless he could somehow force Manchin to change his mind. Even if he could, it would take time we don't have.

The right thing to do at this point is get this bill passed asap (and it DOES include a lot of money for distribution) and move on to minimum wage, infrastructure, and statehood legislation.

 

[InCali]

I mentioned up thread that Sanders was looking into basically forcing it as a tax against large corporations that choose to pay under $15 which is better than Biden's response of basically throwing up his hands and saying it's out of his control.

But once again, the minimum wage increase isn't even what I'm talking about. Biden already disappointed me by briefly toying with the idea of lowering the threshold for the stimulus check (after already stating right out of the gate that it was going to be $1400 instead of $2000), passing the buck to congress on student debt relief, detention camps and then the bombing. His condescending tone to the people that actually voted for him while trying to work with the people that literally supported a President that tried to overthrow the government also didn't win any points with me.

Fair enough. I don't see it entirely the same way, but I get ya.

EDIT - Love Sanders idea. Tax the Fing S*** out of them if they can't pay their employees a living wage and use it to supplement the income of those making substandard wages.

 

[InCali]

Not sure where the best place for this post is, but something has been percolating in my head for awhile and I wanted to run this out. It falls into the category of things I always knew, but weren't really in the forefront of my mind because they weren't overtly spoken.

I just binged the first 5 seasons of Outlander and it reminded me that the US wasn't founded so much on the "liberty" of the individual, but, rather, the "liberty" to get rich off of others; be it via slavery or wage slavery. The options for this are, obviously, much less under a monarchy than a capitalist economic model. Freedom of speech, religion, etc are secondary to economic opportunity and exist as necessary components in an economic structure rather than being in and of themselves a necessary component of human existence. Private ownership is prized above all and violence is condoned to maintain it. The US has a long history of warlike behavior for economic gain and the individual rights of the victims are ignored. Beyond that, it's glorified in songs such as The Star Spangled Banner.

Talk to me about freedom if 60% of the people in this country decide there should be public ownership of production (energy, agriculture, water, etc). It isn't "personal" freedom; it's freedom to exploit the labor of others in order to gain wealth with a veneer of ideology that tells the rest they have the same freedoms of of others. What working class people in this country do have is the freedom to spend whatever money they have left over after life's basic necessities are taken care of.

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

I’ve always said about the founding by the rich white slaver men and their collaborators they had a very narrow definition of freedom. So narrow it applied to much less than 50% of the population.

 

[InCali]

I’ve always said about the founding by the rich white slaver men and their collaborators they had a very narrow definition of freedom. So narrow it applied to much less than 50% of the population.

I'm of the opinion that slavery was abolished not as a moral issue, but because it was an impediment to economic expansion. When there is money to be made, all kinds of "moral" excuses can be found.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Still are "Dems" and the fact still remains that it's the Manchins and Sinemas are the ones blocking this stuff. Biden never, that I can remember, said anything about canceling 50K of student debt. You can disagree with him (I do), but he's not walking back. He supported the minimum wage provision, but once the parliamentarian made that ruling, it was effectively dead as Manchin, not Biden, Warren or Sanders said they wouldn't support the bill after this type of ruling. Biden has no choice, but to "respect" the ruling unless he could somehow force Manchin to change his mind. Even if he could, it would take time we don't have.

The right thing to do at this point is get this bill passed asap (and it DOES include a lot of money for distribution) and move on to minimum wage, infrastructure, and statehood legislation.

Bernie is actually not a Dem. He's an Independent.

The right thing to do is give up? Nah.

 

[InCali]

Bernie is actually not a Dem. He's an Independent.

The right thing to do is give up? Nah.

That's true....though he does caucus with Dem. Give up? On what? If you mean minimum wage, I don't think anyone is giving up on that. It's clear the Covid/Stimulus bill would not pass with the minimum wage provision in it. Manchin has been quite explicit about that. If you kept it in, all it would do is delay passage without any assurance that it would eventually pass. It's pretty clear, at this point, that the provision should be removed in order to get the bill through.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

That's true....though he does caucus with Dem. Give up? On what? If you mean minimum wage, I don't think anyone is giving up on that. It's clear the Covid/Stimulus bill would not pass with the minimum wage provision in it. Manchin has been quite explicit about that. If you kept it in, all it would do is delay passage without any assurance that it would eventually pass. It's pretty clear, at this point, that the provision should be removed in order to get the bill through.

You make Manchin vote on it. If he is willing to screw his own people over it, let him fact the consequences.

This is also the party that has waited a very long time to do this. They went through the charade of acting like they could get Republican support, instead of fast tracking this out of the gate. $1400 ain't nothing now. So why is it still that, when they know they might not get another crack at this?

If the answer is Manchin, then again, I say make him vote no. See if he actually does it. See if he looks at starving people, and tells them no. If he does, what is the point of having him in the party? The truth is this isn't just Manchin or Senima. It's a few more Dems, who know they get cover because of them.

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

Personally I don’t care what the Kim Jong-Un of Saudi Arabia thinks about anything.

 

[InCali]

You make Manchin vote on it. If he is willing to screw his own people over it, let him fact the consequences.

This is also the party that has waited a very long time to do this. They went through the charade of acting like they could get Republican support, instead of fast tracking this out of the gate. $1400 ain't nothing now. So why is it still that, when they know they might not get another crack at this?

If the answer is Manchin, then again, I say make him vote no. See if he actually does it. See if he looks at starving people, and tells them no. If he does, what is the point of having him in the party? The truth is this isn't just Manchin or Senima. It's a few more Dems, who know they get cover because of them.

I wouldn't risk the entire package on that. I don't doubt there may be a few more Dems, but I do see Manchin as the impediment here. He was very explicit and I doubt he would change his vote to a yes after the ruling. He's from WVA and the consequences for him wouldn't be the same as they would be for someone like Feinstein (who is toast anyway).

Make him vote no and face the consequences? No thanks. The real consequence would be for the people who need money and won't get it.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I wouldn't risk the entire package on that. I don't doubt there may be a few more Dems, but I do see Manchin as the impediment here. He was very explicit and I doubt he would change his vote to a yes after the ruling. He's from WVA and the consequences for him wouldn't be the same as they would be for someone like Feinstein (who is toast anyway).

Make him vote no and face the consequences? No thanks. The real consequence would be for the people who need money and won't get it.

I am one of those people. That doesn't change my stance. Especially as this method was done with the ACA back in the day, and resulted in the Dems getting destroyed in the midterms.

 

[InCali]

I am one of those people. That doesn't change my stance. Especially as this method was done with the ACA back in the day, and resulted in the Dems getting destroyed in the midterms.

I just think a smarter political (and humanitarian) move is to pass it without minimum wage and then push a standalone bill for wage increases that gives no room for excuses or obfuscation. Those that won't pass it get it hung around their necks and with no viable excuses.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I just think a smarter political (and humanitarian) move is to pass it without minimum wage and then push a standalone bill for wage increases that gives no room for excuses or obfuscation. Those that won't pass it get it hung around their necks and with no viable excuses.

so the Dems don't have to stick to their promises even as they have all the power? The excuse is Manchin. You know they can't pass it the other way. They can this way, and the only threat they have is no aid, something even Manchin fears.

 

[InCali]

so the Dems don't have to stick to their promises even as they have all the power? The excuse is Manchin. You know they can't pass it the other way. They can this way, and the only threat they have is no aid, something even Manchin fears.

I wouldn’t hang my hat on Manchin flipping and I wouldn’t blame Dems in general.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I wouldn’t hang my hat on Manchin flipping and I wouldn’t blame Dems in general.

The reason they want it removed from the bill before they'd have to vote on it, is because they don't want to have to make the choice.

Call Kyrsten Sinema’s Bluff

Sinema, I think, is going public in order to get Schumer and the rest to join Biden in preemptively conceding. Because—here’s the good news—she does not actually have the power to sink the measure by withholding her support, unless she is willing to vote against the entire relief bill, thus killing it.

The budget reconciliation process is a way to pass legislation with a simple majority in the Senate. There are certain arcane rules about what kinds of bills can and can’t be passed through this process. It is the job of the Senate parliamentarian (currently Elizabeth MacDonough) to advise the Senate on whether any given piece of legislation follows or breaks those rules. The parliamentarian may decide, as Sinema has, that the minimum wage hike doesn’t qualify as something that could be passed through reconciliation. And if that happens? “There is no instance in which I would overrule a parliamentarian’s decision,” Sinema told Politico. So Sinema’s position is clear. Less clear is why she thinks it matters.

Here’s what I mean: If the parliamentarian rules against including the minimum wage proposal in reconciliation, and Democrats decide to overrule the parliamentarian, Sinema would still be unable to block its inclusion in the bill. The parliamentarian has no official power; the vice president, as president of the senate, decides whether to overrule the parliamentarian. It then takes 60 votes to overrule the vice president’s decision.

In other words, if the parliamentarian rules that the wage hike shouldn’t be in the bill (which is far from a given), and the vice president overrules her, Sinema couldn’t stop Harris. Even if she got Joe Manchin and Angus King and Mark Kelly and Jeanne Shaheen on board, they would not be able to block the inclusion of the minimum wage proposal. Their only other option would be to sink the entire package over one of its most popular elements.

Kyrsten Sinema is bluffing. It’s a bluff Chuck Schumer, Joe Biden, and Kamala Harris should call.

I'd read the whole article or check out his appearance on the Majority Report today. I'd blame every Dem who preemptively concedes. It's a choice. A choice to cover for those not wanting to vote for a popular bill. Do you actually think Sinema and Manchin would vote against a policy more popular then either of them in their home states?

And let's be clear. If they aren't willing to do this, they are utterly useless. Even if they flip parties, they don't hold enough power to pass anything, because they are in favor of keeping the filibuster. The Dems give them as much power as they want to give them.

 

[Tempus Fugit]

How should Biden have handled the minimum wage issue?

"Expecto Patronum"?

 

[InCali]

The reason they want it removed from the bill before they'd have to vote on it, is because they don't want to have to make the choice.

Call Kyrsten Sinema’s Bluff



I'd read the whole article or check out his appearance on the Majority Report today. I'd blame every Dem who preemptively concedes. It's a choice. A choice to cover for those not wanting to vote for a popular bill. Do you actually think Sinema and Manchin would vote against a policy more popular then either of them in their home states?

And let's be clear. If they aren't willing to do this, they are utterly useless. Even if they flip parties, they don't hold enough power to pass anything, because they are in favor of keeping the filibuster. The Dems give them as much power as they want to give them.

We wouldn’t be getting a 1.9T package had those seats in GA not been won. I didn’t expect everything with this type of majority and to blame all rank and file Dems for this doesn’t fly with me. What if someone calls Manchin’s bluff and it isn’t a bluff? I think most people would be pretty pissed off at the Dems. IMO it would be foolish to take this chance, but we can disagree about this

 

[Eddie Dean]

"Expecto Patronum"?

Remember when Trump did like ten thousand executive orders?