The Daily Planet - Superman News and Speculation Thread

[dhandler01]

The 30s could be great, I just wonder if the audience will latch onto it no matter the race of Kal. It could be epic though to be sure and I would have no issue with it if done right. (that trailer was excellent)

And again I think some people (none of us discussing it right now) on the interwebs are way too narrowly focuses about what period piece means. Joker was a period piece because it took place in a specific time in the past. (late 70s Gotham/New York)

One thing I think could be a cool dynamic is how Smallville doesn't figure out Kal is the one doing Super Stuff as a youth. (which I am guessing would happen) Hint that they never even suspect him because they can't even believe a Black Person would be able to do it. Don't make it about the "N" word or lynching or anything, just basic ignorance. The type of passive racism that had people shocked by things like the Harlem Hellfighters or The Tuskegee Airman. He hides in plain sight as a kid.

 

[Vaibow]

This just smells of taking a good but risky idea, slapping the s shield on it to carry it forward.

it doesn't need that... it doesn't need to be anything.. we don't need a lesson, just give us a good superman story.

Heck, John Henry 'Irons' can do so well for WB and still be in the DCEU - I'd be all over that, heck we just lost iron man, and cyborg... so this can be so much more...

Rewriting superman's history, to teach history rubs me the wrong way, when the original concept does this just fine.

Oh well, people will like it... some won't... life goes on.

 

[project13]

 

[Manny Moo]

To each their own. I have read some great posts for and against the idea. My issue is not the idea but the implementation.

Clearly, Its a really divisive idea, so first and foremost I feel for the Superman fans who have been clamouring for a Superman story without divisiveness since MOS.

I also really find it strange that this could be interpreted as some kind of positive move in terms of representation. In my view, its a see through, calculated effort by executives at pandering, its fake, artificial and lazy and aimed only at trying to generate cheap buzz and money. I personally cannot see this as anything but a very cynical move on the part of WB.

Someone asked me, well can it not just be about them having a good story or pitch? Sure it could be. But it doesn't seem like it from how it is unfolding. The implementation is the reason, the whole conception reeks of insincerity to me. Do POC really just want to be black versions of traditionally white characters, or would it not be more representative to put up on screen and give prominence to POC created characters? Not to mention the treatment of Fisher and others recently. And even if its based off a great pitch and then becomes a great story, because there is huge potential to tell a fascinating tale with this concept, they (WB) have killed all that potential before it can start. They just continue to mismanage and disappoint and anyone who thinks they are gonna just suddenly be great at this stuff isn't paying attention.

Its so weird, they are already going with the movie multiverse, why not have this version of Kal El and Cavill's version side by side?

 

[GreenKToo]

It's a hard pass for me. I'm a diehard fan but changing something because it's the popular thing to do atm, will cause this to be more controversial than SR was.

It may do well, idk, but my gut says epic fail, or maybe just breaking even.

I'd sure hate to be the person that's gonna get the blame for it afterwards.

 

[Legendver2]

I'm a diehard fan but changing something because it's the popular thing to do atm

Lol, the popular thing to do is to adapt actual POC characters, not to racebend ones who were traditionally white-looking.

 

[dhandler01]

So no black man can ever play a character that is thought to be White? So say...Denzel could never play Hamlet?

What about Clark Kent's story, outside of the fact that he was drawn as White, has anything to do with his skin color? He is an alien he can be any color. I get the argument with Bruce Wayne but Clark is the ultimate immigrant nothing about that makes him have to be White. The sum total of the arguments against this is that back when he couldn't have been drawn as anything but White, he was drawn as White. Tradition dictates we keep it that way because it is "pure" and how it has always been. Well that is illogical. Times change, norms change and there is nothing wrong with characters changing with them. Should we list all of the things that were "traditional" in the 1930s that aren't now? Should we stop progress just because change rubs people the wrong way? (no I am not saying Black Superman = The Civil Rights Movement or anything I am just making a point)

Again I get that it is the nature of the internet to be cynical so you all just assume this is pandering...but if it was pandering it would be farther along than it is and they would be pumping the story way more than they are. This hardly registers outside the comic community so WB aint getting much traction out of this. In fact the only people outside of us who are even talking about it are the people whining about it being pandering and trying to ape Black Panther or whatever dog whistle comment gets them the most clicks. (I am not saying anyone here is doing that for the record) I just don't think that is what is driving all of this or we wouldn't be able to escape the story. I mean we are hearing about this as much as we heard about the fake Frosty the Snowman film...this should be a much bigger deal if they are doing this for the press and to satisfy the SJWs on Twitter.

Much like the Ray Fisher drama (the other reason people seem to think this happening) I just don't think anyone cares. Most moviegoers are going to be entertained they don't get hung up on the details. When Joker was announced and we found out he had a full origin people around here and on Twitter went nuts! THE JOKER DOESN'T HAVE AN ORIGIN!1!!11! TODD PHILLIPS DOESN'T GET JOKER!1!1 All sorts of whining and complaining about how this proves WB doesn't get how these properties work, the movie is a joke and will fail. (originally it was pandering to Scorsese) Then people saw it and 90% of the viewers didn't care about any of it even if they didn't like the film. The movie stands on it's own.

That will be the case here. If the film comes out and if it is with a Black Actor people will judge it based on it's own merits.

Now, as I said to titansupes in another thread, I am not saying WB is being only altruistic here. I just don't think this was their grand plan. I think they took pitches for Superman and none of them were great. (cause people seem to just not get Superman these days) I think they hold MBJ in the highest regards and want to work with him as much as possible and so they took his pitch as well. I think when Coates became serious about it they gave it more weight and since they would get a lot of positive press and progressive applause for it that put it over the top. I think they lucked into a very good situation and are taking advantage of it. I don't think that is a bad thing...

Who knows if it will happen, or if it will work. It might not. The color of the skin of the actor has zero to do with it.

As for whether making him Calvin Ellis or Val-Zod would be better...honestly I think it wouldn't change much when it comes to the press or the average filmgoer. In fact you would probably get more people confused and saying "why make up a new guy just have Clark be Black!" followed by clickbaiters saying this shows WB is racist because they couldn't just let a Black Man be Clark Kent. (which again is just ridiculous)

Just my $.02 worth way less than that with inflation. YMMV.

 

[Manny Moo]

So no black man can ever play a character that is thought to be White? So say...Denzel could never play Hamlet?

What about Clark Kent's story, outside of the fact that he was drawn as White, has anything to do with his skin color? He is an alien he can be any color. I get the argument with Bruce Wayne but Clark is the ultimate immigrant nothing about that makes him have to be White. The sum total of the arguments against this is that back when he couldn't have been drawn as anything but White, he was drawn as White. Tradition dictates we keep it that way because it is "pure" and how it has always been. Well that is illogical. Times change, norms change and there is nothing wrong with characters changing with them. Should we list all of the things that were "traditional" in the 1930s that aren't now? Should we stop progress just because change rubs people the wrong way? (no I am not saying Black Superman = The Civil Rights Movement or anything I am just making a point)

....

I believe anyone could play any character they wish, as long as they have the acting chops and fit the story. My only gripe is when its a decision that is seemingly based on marketing, PR, and a contrived idea of what people want to see. Starting by saying the actor must be this colour and all else is secondary. Now that's my belief as to what WB are doing here. But I could be wrong. It just looks that way to me is all. Especially given their desperation to move on from Snyder and the timings of these announcements. I think objectively there is a pattern of behaviour there. As a fan of the Snyderverse I think its at least partially a way to deflect and try to divert attention.

I also question the idea of representation being as simple as race swapping a character. Just personally it seems lazy to me. In some ways its saying, characters like John Stewart, Victor Stone, Icon, Static, Black Lightening, or even Calvin Ellis or Val-Zod are second tier and the only way to have a legitimate Black Superman is to race swap Clark Kent. Number 1 cos we don't believe any of these characters can stand on their own so creating a buzz by race swapping a traditionally white character is the best way to have a black superman? Number two Superman is our best shot at making money, not Lantern or Cyborg. And I do not believe that. I am also just disappointed. Losing Cavill without a proper MOS sequel and the conclusion of his Snyder arc and at the same time destroying, through bad planning, a great chance for a very cool Black superman story. It just sucks and creates more division than needs to exist.

 

[dhandler01]

I dont necessarily disagree...I just think the flack they will get for "relegating" the Black Superman to a new character with no history will be worse than the weak "race swapping" critiques. As a lifelong fan of Clark Kent/Superman I just want a great story and a director who gets the character. They could be any color, race or creed as long as the story works.

And I am a fan of the Snyderverse but these conspiracy theories have got to stop. Good god the restore crowd is off their rocker. They give WB way too much credit. And again, for all the love I give Snyder he did Superman, and Cavill, friggin dirty. I like Snyder's films a lot but getting him far away from Superman is and should be priority #1. He had his chance with mixed results I want new voices and ideas...

 

[Manny Moo]

I dont necessarily disagree...I just think the flack they will get for "relegating" the Black Superman to a new character with no history will be worse than the weak "race swapping" critiques. As a lifelong fan of Clark Kent/Superman I just want a great story and a director who gets the character. They could be any color, race or creed as long as the story works.

And I am a fan of the Snyderverse but these conspiracy theories have got to stop. Good god the restore crowd is off their rocker. They give WB way too much credit. And again, for all the love I give Snyder he did Superman, and Cavill, friggin dirty. I like Snyder's films a lot but getting him far away from Superman is and should be priority #1. He had his chance with mixed results I want new voices and ideas...

I have a lot of respect for you and your opinions. Even when I disagree with them. I do agree that there are elements in the Snyderverse fandom that are too much. I think we can agree we all just want the best and most interesting movies about characters we love.

 

[dhandler01]

I have a lot of respect for you and your opinions. Even when I disagree with them. I do agree that there are elements in the Snyderverse fandom that are too much. I think we can agree we all just want the best and most interesting movies about characters we love.

Absolutely. what a boring world it would be if we all agreed on everything. I respect your views as well

 

[souperman]

So no black man can ever play a character that is thought to be White? So say...Denzel could never play Hamlet?

What about Clark Kent's story, outside of the fact that he was drawn as White, has anything to do with his skin color? He is an alien he can be any color. I get the argument with Bruce Wayne but Clark is the ultimate immigrant nothing about that makes him have to be White. The sum total of the arguments against this is that back when he couldn't have been drawn as anything but White, he was drawn as White. Tradition dictates we keep it that way because it is "pure" and how it has always been. Well that is illogical. Times change, norms change and there is nothing wrong with characters changing with them. Should we list all of the things that were "traditional" in the 1930s that aren't now? Should we stop progress just because change rubs people the wrong way? (no I am not saying Black Superman = The Civil Rights Movement or anything I am just making a point)

Again I get that it is the nature of the internet to be cynical so you all just assume this is pandering...but if it was pandering it would be farther along than it is and they would be pumping the story way more than they are. This hardly registers outside the comic community so WB aint getting much traction out of this. In fact the only people outside of us who are even talking about it are the people whining about it being pandering and trying to ape Black Panther or whatever dog whistle comment gets them the most clicks. (I am not saying anyone here is doing that for the record) I just don't think that is what is driving all of this or we wouldn't be able to escape the story. I mean we are hearing about this as much as we heard about the fake Frosty the Snowman film...this should be a much bigger deal if they are doing this for the press and to satisfy the SJWs on Twitter.

Much like the Ray Fisher drama (the other reason people seem to think this happening) I just don't think anyone cares. Most moviegoers are going to be entertained they don't get hung up on the details. When Joker was announced and we found out he had a full origin people around here and on Twitter went nuts! THE JOKER DOESN'T HAVE AN ORIGIN!1!!11! TODD PHILLIPS DOESN'T GET JOKER!1!1 All sorts of whining and complaining about how this proves WB doesn't get how these properties work, the movie is a joke and will fail. (originally it was pandering to Scorsese) Then people saw it and 90% of the viewers didn't care about any of it even if they didn't like the film. The movie stands on it's own.

That will be the case here. If the film comes out and if it is with a Black Actor people will judge it based on it's own merits.

Now, as I said to titansupes in another thread, I am not saying WB is being only altruistic here. I just don't think this was their grand plan. I think they took pitches for Superman and none of them were great. (cause people seem to just not get Superman these days) I think they hold MBJ in the highest regards and want to work with him as much as possible and so they took his pitch as well. I think when Coates became serious about it they gave it more weight and since they would get a lot of positive press and progressive applause for it that put it over the top. I think they lucked into a very good situation and are taking advantage of it. I don't think that is a bad thing...

Who knows if it will happen, or if it will work. It might not. The color of the skin of the actor has zero to do with it.

As for whether making him Calvin Ellis or Val-Zod would be better...honestly I think it wouldn't change much when it comes to the press or the average filmgoer. In fact you would probably get more people confused and saying "why make up a new guy just have Clark be Black!" followed by clickbaiters saying this shows WB is racist because they couldn't just let a Black Man be Clark Kent. (which again is just ridiculous)

Just my $.02 worth way less than that with inflation. YMMV.

I ask about the motivation which to my cynical self reeks of a desperate PC-SJW cry for acceptance in a changing world.

If you take the characters as written and described and portrayed traditionally then no, a person of color should not play Kal-El/Clark Kent unless it is an alternate universe and everything will be altered. Maybe Perry White will be white again in this alternate reality?...

If an alternate reality, MAYBE it can be interesting but it will create yet another hole for themselves because no matter how great the actor and film it will still not fulfill the audience desire to see a GREAT traditional Superman film.

There are long and colorful histories for these characters that live in the minds of the audience. They are beloved AS IS. By all colors. I have watched many YTs of many persons of color outraged by this potential news. Not because a black actor couldn't do the role justice, but because Clark Kent is and was written as a white character... just like Bond.

Hancock was fun. A superman-type character, and it worked well... who happened to be black.

The question really is where it stop.? Will George Washington be changed to a person of color.? Is it ok to change every character ever written just to make a social point in a vain attempt to reach a different or more diverse audience.? I didn't hear any persons of color rooting against Cavil as Superman because he was white. They loved him. They don't see the color, except the Red and Blue... and Black... ; )

Is it now okay take a historical story like Roots and remake it with a white Kunta-Kinte.?.. ( not that that was a true story) Or a MLK Jr. film staring RDJ ( without the make-up) ?

To be clear, I am all for diversity and opportunity. There are MANY characters to go around and more that could be written if there was some creativity out there.

We have to wait to see what really will happen here. Will it be a For all mankind story where everything is altered in a weird twilight zone like story changing and confusing history.?. I just don't see it solving WBs problems and I am not alone in seeing this as a desperate and embarrassingly overt attempt to attract and appease an audience that will never materialize IMO.

As for what you said above: "saying this shows WB is racist because they couldn't just let a Black Man be Clark Kent. (which again is just ridiculous) "

IMO people will say, " what's wrong with WB that they think they can prove that they aren't racist by making Clark Kent black... To me this is just a weak move. I think black actors deserve better.

Just food for thought. I could be wrong....

I take your two cents and give you a penny change...

 

[Frodo]

The whole " Can a Black person can't play a White character ? " argument at this point is moot with regards to this film, since, they're clearly moving forward at this point. The studio has already decided , like it or not, there's going to be a Black actor playing the next Superman .

Regardless, whether it's Val Zod, Calvin Ellies, Kal El, or a new character, there's going to be a Black Superman Elseworld's film.

Whether one thinks its " too PC " or not done for " the right reasons" , the whole " Race bending thing" has been done in Marvel and DC films and tv for several years now, and both studios will continue to do it with the characters at their discretion .

So that train has already left the station regardless of whether fans can accept it or not.

Some fans think only White actors can and should play characters who've been White in the comics and other medium, and other fans disagree with that. Fandom is split on that issue .

But ,at the end of the day , it's gonna be up to the individual whether they can except a Black Superman or not .

Alot of fanboys , for whatever reason and rationale, won't be able to accept it. WB is gonna have to be prepared for that .

For those who can accept a Black actor playing that part, they'll see who's cast ,and if WB's doesn't mess it up.

Either way , it looks like the film is happening.

 

[Nemeres]

I like the idea, I see it as a good opening to add commentary to the character. Would a black Superman get to deal with themes of alienation, belonging, loss of culture, pride in culture, more viscerally than a white Superman? I think that's fair to say. Power on behalf of the oppressed, etc. In terms of story and thematic content, it adds a layer that wasn't there before, an opportunity to highlight cultural relevance while still keeping all the Superman basics. That's hard to thumb my nose at.

I do think that, potentially, it can be dodgy terrain and hurt sensibilities easily. Like Black Panther, it could get political interpretations that go beyond the simple "good vs. evil" terms, some unflattering, from Black audiences, too. And it's stuff you wouldn't get from a hero that was originally black or where race wasn't part of the commentary. I don't think that warrants not giving it a try, though. The idea has a core of "cool" that I'd like to see carried all the way to the finish line.

 

[souperman]

Snyder’s self reflective Superman was described by many as mopey white Superman and was complained about unendingly as “not embodying the classic Superman” But a totally different take on the character exploring social issues with a black actor will be accepted?

 

[dhandler01]

I think it is a logical fallacy to ask if White Actors can play Black Characters in part because Hollywood has done stuff like that for years. I mean "Black Face" was a thing...Whites played Native Americans, Latino/as, Indians, Middle Easterners and Asians for decades and no one had an issue with it. (and a lot of the time it was hella racist and within my lifetime) Hell Johnny Depp played friggin Tonto not that long ago! Didn't Marvel do it in Dr. Strange? I bet we could find dozens of recent examples if we really thought about it when it comes to fiction. That dog just won't hunt...

And again, the only reason Superman is White is because he was drawn that way. MLK or Kunta Kinte are characters based in the Black Experience. Nothing about Superman except that he grew up in Kansas has anything to do with The White Experience. (which in and of itself is just...existence) Maybe if we were talking about a real person or a situation where ONLY a White Person could have experienced the story a certain way I would agree but today even that is being proven wrong. (Hamilton made all the Founders other races and even racists seem to like that show!) If this was a bio pick about Babe Ruth or JFK then sure it would make little sense. But Superman can be anyone because he isn't real and isn't from Earth. His struggles with his powers are not unique to us honkies! His growing up an immigrant in America can be applied to literally everyone here who isn't Native. Sure there probably aren't a lot of Black People in rural Kansas but he is adopted so who cares? One of my best friends growing up was a Korean Boy who was adopted by the kindliest White Family you can imagine. (in an uber White Suburb) It can work...

In fact, I would say outside of being drawn White Superman is closer to MLK than he is most White People in America who are more than 2 generations removed from somewhere else. Think about it, there is a segment of the population that no matter what he does, what he says, who he saves or whatever will hate him just cause he is an alien. Even when he is right, he is still not trusted or liked by people for no fault of his own. That is NOT the White Experience...unless you watch a lot of Fox News

Now again I am not saying it WILL work...it could miss the mark completely. Truth is though Superman is having issues connecting and staying relevant so trying something new and maybe this is the nuance he needs to get back into the swing of things. It is easy to dismiss the average White Hero as optimistic in the face of adversity for a million reasons.

 

[dhandler01]

Snyder’s self reflective Superman was described by many as mopey white Superman and was complained about unendingly as “not embodying the classic Superman” But a totally different take on the character exploring social issues with a black actor will be accepted?

If people like the director better than Snyder sure. The mopeyness wasn't the problem it was the bad editing and the fact we never saw BEYOND the navel gazing that ticked off a lot of people. (and remember MOS is a Top 3 CBM for me) Introspection is fine, but it has to go somewhere. He was still "introspective" when he came back from the dead in the Snyderverse. There was no arc to it...even when he called Earth "home" it never felt like he was saying it based on anything but it being in the script. Even his relationship with Lois felt hollow. We were promised something that never came about. (even at the end of ZSJL) We never really saw Superman as we were told he would be. (the traditional Superman)

Snyder just never quite got what makes Superman "Super".

Nuance and introspection aren't the issue...storytelling and fundamentals of the character are.

 

[Prison Mike]

Unfortunately this is what happens when you have a 5 movie arc where the main character evolves into the traditional version that everyone loves but only by the end of the 5th movie. It does become exhausting. I love MOS and will defend it until the end of time but I do understand how people got annoyed with the lack of classic Superman tropes. Personally I thought it was there but people were expecting something more...hopeful I guess.

 

[-Arya-]

I still find it astonishing that Superman and Lois nailed what Superman should be in 1 episode and Snyder/Goyer couldn’t do it in 3 movies. I even think Clark had more lines of dialogue in the first episode than all the movies combined. Just....mind boggling

 

[Shinobi Shaw]

I still find it astonishing that Superman and Lois nailed what Superman should be in 1 episode and Snyder/Goyer couldn’t do it in 3 movies. I even think Clark had more lines of dialogue in the first episode than all the movies combined. Just....mind boggling

That’s what happens when you have a creative team who looks at Superman/Clark as a character instead of a concept/symbol. That show is low-key very good, aside from some of the cw teen drama.

 

[-Arya-]

That’s what happens when you have a creative team who looks at Superman/Clark as a character instead of a concept/symbol. That show is low-key very good, aside from some of the cw teen drama.

I don’t mind the Teen drama because everything else is so good. I wish WB would green light a Superman movie with Hoechlin quite honestly.

 

[dhandler01]

The teen drama works because it isn't Superman's teen drama. I mean he has kids that are teens so it is expected there will be drama. Superman still does Superman stuff, he just has kids who are going through other stuff. And Lois has hers as well...

I think the problem filmmakers have with Superman is that they can't seem to wrap their head around that Superman isn't a product of his time, he is a product of ALL TIME in modern America. Donner got that (as much as was possible in 1978) which is why that film holds up and is what people hold all Superman films up against. He doesn't need to be cool, and he doesn't need to be dark, or even corny like he is often portrayed. He just needs to be doing his best to protect the world and juggle a real life on top of that. It is tough, and he struggles, but you never think he hates doing it in any way. To him it is his duty. You should be able to watch the film and have it be relevant no matter when you watch it.

Superman and Lois gets that. Yeah there is some "product of the time" stuff but the major points are rather timeless. While again I love MOS, Snyder's film works better in a cynical time than it does in a hopeful time. The character needs to work no matter the time or place. Superman should be the light in the cynical darkness, or the beacon inspiring things to next level greatness when things are going well. Superman's world can be cynical and dark, but he can't be. Even if moviegoers find it boring Superman has to be the Big Blue Boy Scout in the end.

 

[Calvin Ellis]

The whole " Can a Black person can't play a White character ? " argument at this point is moot with regards to this film, since, they're clearly moving forward at this point. The studio has already decided , like it or not, there's going to be a Black actor playing the next Superman .

Regardless, whether it's Val Zod, Calvin Ellies, Kal El, or a new character, there's going to be a Black Superman Elseworld's film.

Whether one thinks its " too PC " or not done for " the right reasons" , the whole " Race bending thing" has been done in Marvel and DC films and tv for several years now, and both studios will continue to do it with the characters at their discretion .

So that train has already left the station regardless of whether fans can accept it or not.

Some fans think only White actors can and should play characters who've been White in the comics and other medium, and other fans disagree with that. Fandom is split on that issue .

But ,at the end of the day , it's gonna be up to the individual whether they can except a Black Superman or not .

Alot of fanboys , for whatever reason and rationale, won't be able to accept it. WB is gonna have to be prepared for that .

For those who can accept a Black actor playing that part, they'll see who's cast ,and if WB's doesn't mess it up.

Either way , it looks like the film is happening.

I agree with your post but one like instead of putting Kal-El you should write Clark Kent because Calvin Ellis is still Kal-El as well. The only one who isn't Kal-El is Val-Zod but Wal even could've been an El since he was raised by Jor-El and Lara and was like an older brother to Kal-El of Earth-2 which is why he wore the house of El symbol in the comics.

 

[Nemeres]

Snyder’s self reflective Superman was described by many as mopey white Superman and was complained about unendingly as “not embodying the classic Superman” But a totally different take on the character exploring social issues with a black actor will be accepted?

You're kind of saying it yourself here. Snyder's take didn't quite hit the mark. A different script, director and star might. A soup ain't a bad idea on principle just because someone fumbled the recipe once.

 

[Detective Conan]

I’ve become much more convinced that this movie won’t have either Kent or Elis. I very much suspect Coates to invent a new civilian identity but keep the original Kal-El birthname and origin.