Comics Ben Reilly on the New Avengers or a team that steams from Civil War

[Citizen_Kaine]

Agreed. (Besides, Araña fits that bill already )

BTW, newsflash to those of you who are hard-core Ben Reilly fans and who are eager for him to return: It's not going to happen. If anything, Kaine will probably come back long before Ben Reilly ever does. Plus, if Spidey was cloned AGAIN it doesn't mean that clone would be Ben Reilly; it would just be another carbon copy of Peter with his memories, NOT Ben Reilly's, who himself had memories that he himself never experienced either.

And yes, while I liked Ben Reilly as well simply because of the "little brother/cousin" angle that was played, here's the dirty little secret:
The only reason why Ben Reilly was popular was because he was how Peter Parker should've been written had the writers of the Clone Saga actually wrote Spider-Man in character instead of being so hell-bent on replacing him. In short, Ben Reilly fans are closet Peter Parker fans. (*stillanerd now braces for the impending and inevitable beatdown from Citizen Kaine and all of his CWO buddies and he calls upon the powers of the dark side )

*Comes out of the shadows and snaps "Nerds neck*

Heres the question though, did it take the creation of Ben Reilly to see all what that wrong with the Spider Titles?

Wasn't Peter being written as an idiot and a sap long before the "mystery man" ever appeared? Didn't Peter and MJ spend less time being a family and more time fighting and *****ing, long before the words Scarlet Spider were ever concieved? How about the supporting cast, they did alot... In regards to standing around and making Peter's life miserable.

Peter Parker as a sociopath did not sell, the writers found that out long before Spec 216 ever hit the stands. All of the above statements occured long before the whole saga was drawn up. Peter Parker was not written like this to sell others on the character on Ben Reilly, Ben Reilly was created because the writers had written Peter into a ditch. And yes while Ben was created to replace Peter as well, it was done in order to avoid any conflicts of interest that would have happened if Peter Parker had reverted to his old fun loving self, examples.

1. There is no more Peter Parker supporting cast: Answer, find him a new job/location and introduce him to the characters:

Problem, The Daily Bugle is a key element of the cast, a new job takes him away from that (See ASM V2 30 on)

2. The Peter Parker relationships were a key element of the old Spider Man stories: Answer have him find a new female protagonist and build upon that (Yeah I know, I'm channeling the ghost of Joey Q here )

Problem, Everyone likes Mary Jane, shes now a key aspect to the mythos, she can never be replaced.

and so forth

By creating Ben Reilly, the whole Peter Parker/Mary Jane mythos that we all know and love stay the same and we get a whole new Spider Man to play and grow with, and as an added bonus we get the Classic Spidey and his red headed ball and chain annnnnnnnd his daughter as supporting cast members. Lots of possible growth and opportunity to use, and the classic Spidey feel that everyone reads in the Essentials and loves!

Instead of all that we get mystical totem Spidey hanging with his boss Iron Man at the New Avengers tower with ****ing Aunt May baking wheatcakes for Wolverine as comic relief

So yeah I'm a closet Peter Parker fan. Privy to how Peter Parker should be written, whether his name be that or not.

 

[Dragon]

So you don't read spider-man because of decisions like clones? Does that mean that you haven't been reading Spider-man since the mid 70's? Because they've been around a while.

Is this question supposed to be a joke? I said I don't read any Spider-man NOW. But more accurately, I don't BUY Spider-Man. I Byrne-steal to keep up on what's happening.

And by and large the majority of people didn't hate Ben, they hated the Clone story once Marvel milked it dry and draged it on for about a year longer then needed. Many people actually liked many parts of the Clone saga, Ben as a character for one, the Death of Aunt may was a wonderfully done story, Kane was a great villian, and the introduction of a Baby into Spider-man's life would have been great.

Well, whether they hated Ben, loved him or what have you- the comics weren't selling when he was in them, thus the reason for the switch back.

And let's be clear. Ben Reilly is not what the comis needed. They needed good writing. Ben Reilly is the same thing as The Other and Sins Past. A cheap parlor trick to substitute for actual creativity. I'm sorry that so many of you started reading comics with Ben Reilly, don't know Spider-Man's history and why such a character is just spitting on the good work of earlier creators. Point is, that bringing him back will do the Spider-books no good. Because even if you LOVE him you have to acknowledge that he won't help if the writing and editorial policy is still garbage.

 

[WOLVERINE25TH]

I started before Ben and prefer Ben, so stick that in yer pipe and smoke it! BOOYAH!

 

[Citizen_Kaine]

Is this question supposed to be a joke? I said I don't read any Spider-man NOW. But more accurately, I don't BUY Spider-Man. I Byrne-steal to keep up on what's happening.



Well, whether they hated Ben, loved him or what have you- the comics weren't selling when he was in them, thus the reason for the switch back.

And let's be clear. Ben Reilly is not what the comis needed. They needed good writing. Ben Reilly is the same thing as The Other and Sins Past. A cheap parlor trick to substitute for actual creativity. I'm sorry that so many of you started reading comics with Ben Reilly, don't know Spider-Man's history and why such a character is just spitting on the good work of earlier creators. Point is, that bringing him back will do the Spider-books no good. Because even if you LOVE him you have to acknowledge that he won't help if the writing and editorial policy is still garbage.

For my 1800th post I'm gonna agree with you fully Dragon. Characters such as Ben, Kaine, Mayday, and Kingsley are much better off in comic book limbo, far away from the Straczynski's Joey Q's and the Davids of this world

 

[Citizen_Kaine]

I started before Ben and prefer Ben, so stick that in yer pipe and smoke it! BOOYAH!

I as well, am an anomaly to your theory, My first book was ASM 300 and I read into a ton of back issues before the Saga

 

[The Joker]

And let's be clear. Ben Reilly is not what the comis needed. They needed good writing. Ben Reilly is the same thing as The Other and Sins Past. A cheap parlor trick to substitute for actual creativity. I'm sorry that so many of you started reading comics with Ben Reilly, don't know Spider-Man's history and why such a character is just spitting on the good work of earlier creators. Point is, that bringing him back will do the Spider-books no good. Because even if you LOVE him you have to acknowledge that he won't help if the writing and editorial policy is still garbage.

Well said Dragon

Leave Ben Reilly as dust,just the way he belongs.We're trying to get over the problems in the Spider-Man comics,the last thing we need is to bring back the problems from the past.

 

[WOLVERINE25TH]

I'll even go further! My first comic with Ben was Spider-Man #58. So, at that point I had no idea who Ben Reilly is or what th' Clone Saga was or what not. All I knew was there was Peter Parker, another Peter Parker, and a red Spider-Man. From that one issue alone I became enamored with Ben enough to wanna know more. Although it was a slow battle to achieve said knowledge, I'm glad I did.

 

[WOLVERINE25TH]

Actually, I'm not sure if it was my FIRST one, but I'm sure it's among my oldest in th' CS.

 

[stillanerd]

*Comes out of the shadows and snaps "Nerds neck*

*Like the Marvel Zombie he is, Stillanerd slowly rises to feast on Kaine's brains *

Heres the question though, did it take the creation of Ben Reilly to see all what that wrong with the Spider Titles?

Wasn't Peter being written as an idiot and a sap long before the "mystery man" ever appeared? Didn't Peter and MJ spend less time being a family and more time fighting and *****ing, long before the words Scarlet Spider were ever concieved? How about the supporting cast, they did alot... In regards to standing around and making Peter's life miserable.

Peter Parker as a sociopath did not sell, the writers found that out long before Spec 216 ever hit the stands. All of the above statements occured long before the whole saga was drawn up. Peter Parker was not written like this to sell others on the character on Ben Reilly, Ben Reilly was created because the writers had written Peter into a ditch.

And I agree that Peter was being horribly writen around this time. Making a deal with Venom was bad enough, but turning him into a wannabe Batman spouting lines like "Peter is dead, I am the Spider" was the absolute low point. And yes, I don't mind that the clone saga happened, and that a return of the Spider-Man clone (Ben Reilly) DID work for awhile--until they tried to replace him. However, why not just write Peter Parker like, well, PETER PARKER instead of creating a whole new guy?

And yes while Ben was created to replace Peter as well, it was done in order to avoid any conflicts of interest that would have happened if Peter Parker had reverted to his old fun loving self, examples.

1. There is no more Peter Parker supporting cast: Answer, find him a new job/location and introduce him to the characters:

Problem, The Daily Bugle is a key element of the cast, a new job takes him away from that (See ASM V2 30 on)

2. The Peter Parker relationships were a key element of the old Spider Man stories: Answer have him find a new female protagonist and build upon that (Yeah I know, I'm channeling the ghost of Joey Q here )

Problem, Everyone likes Mary Jane, shes now a key aspect to the mythos, she can never be replaced.

Problem 3: Since everyone reading comics, and even those outside of comics, knows that Peter Parker is Spider-Man, Ben Reilly not only had to "reclaim" the mantle of Spider-Man, he had to "reclaim" the mantle of Peter Parker. But the staff at Marvel during that time didn't realize this until it was far too late, and no one could come up with a logical way to do this. As a result, the "new readers" they were supposed to attract ended up becoming more confused because they'd want to know who this blond guy was and then you'd have to explain the whole clone saga to them.

By creating Ben Reilly, the whole Peter Parker/Mary Jane mythos that we all know and love stay the same and we get a whole new Spider Man to play and grow with, and as an added bonus we get the Classic Spidey and his red headed ball and chain annnnnnnnd his daughter as supporting cast members. Lots of possible growth and opportunity to use, and the classic Spidey feel that everyone reads in the Essentials and loves!

Instead of all that we get mystical totem Spidey hanging with his boss Iron Man at the New Avengers tower with ****ing Aunt May baking wheatcakes for Wolverine as comic relief

Now that's what I call a choice between two evils. While I would've much rather prefered Ben Reilly not being the real Spider-Man and taking Peter's place, that least the first scenario is far more closer to classic Spidey than what we've currently got, no question. Plus the only "stingers" would've been "web-missles" rather than Wolverine-esque "bone spears."

So yeah I'm a closet Peter Parker fan. Privy to how Peter Parker should be written, whether his name be that or not.

HA. I knew it. And yes, Ben Reilly WAS how Peter Parker should've been behaving all along. And if Peter had been written in character from the get-go, there would be no need for Ben Reilly.

And let's be clear. Ben Reilly is not what the comics needed. They needed good writing. Ben Reilly is the same thing as The Other and Sins Past. A cheap parlor trick to substitute for actual creativity. I'm sorry that so many of you started reading comics with Ben Reilly, don't know Spider-Man's history and why such a character is just spitting on the good work of earlier creators. Point is, that bringing him back will do the Spider-books no good. Because even if you LOVE him you have to acknowledge that he won't help if the writing and editorial policy is still garbage.

Exactly. And what's worse is that Marvel seems to have completely forgotten the lessons they should've learned from the clone saga, considering how Joe Q and JMS are now planning on "fixing" Spider-Man when they're the ones who made him into such a mess to begin with.

 

[Vile]

For my 1800th post I'm gonna agree with you fully Dragon. Characters such as Ben, Kaine, Mayday, and Kingsley are much better off in comic book limbo, far away from the Straczynski's Joey Q's and the Davids of this world

Wait wait wait...

I agree with all that but...

Whats wrong with Kingsley? The ORIGINAL Hobgoblin rocks! Hell, I want to see more of him! Norman has run his course...bring back the Hobgoblin!

 

[WOLVERINE25TH]

You got it wrong, bunky. That wasn't a rib against him, that was sayin' keep good characters as far away from this crap lest th' stigma rubs off on them.

 

[Citizen_Kaine]

I thought it would be self explanatory given the character in my name and avater

 

[Vile]

Whoops. My bad.

Continue. =)

 

[Citizen_Kaine]

Whoops. My bad.

Continue. =)

Vile, a little off topic but you aren't by chance reading Spider Girl right now are ya?

 

[Vile]

I dont read any Marvel comics anymore.

 

[Citizen_Kaine]

I dont read any Marvel comics anymore.

We'll you seemed to like Kingsley, just giving you a push in the right direction

 

[Kool-Aid]

BTW, newsflash to those of you who are hard-core Ben Reilly fans and who are eager for him to return: It's not going to happen.

When people start thinking that then thats when it will.

The same principles apply to ex girl friends.

 

[stillanerd]

When people start thinking that then thats when it will.

The same principles apply to ex girl friends.

Yeah, but the memory of some ex's stay with you like a bad rash...in some cases literally

As for Ben, so far it's been what? Ten years? Hasn't shown up yet. Then again, a lot of people thought the Green Goblin would stay dead...and Aunt May, Uncle Ben (although he's from an alternate universe) And like I said, even if Peter was cloned AGAIN and the new clone called himself Ben Reilly, he wouldn't BE Ben Reilly because Ben had certain experiences characteristic of him (besides having false memories of being Peter, which is not really experience). Unless if some supervillain or S.H.I.E.L.D. or somebody somehow managed to collect all that clone dust before it blew away in the wind shortly after Spider-Man #75, the only clones left are probably Kaine, Gwen's clone, and the Jackal's clone (hopefully the Green Goblin is also a clone too, but that's, unfortunately, not bloodly likely).

 

[Vile]

We'll you seemed to like Kingsley, just giving you a push in the right direction

Really? Hmm...Thanks!

 

[WOLVERINE25TH]

But see, Clones don't turn to dust. Fake Ben = Real Ben somewhere else. It was a clone of a clone, dammit!

 

[Kool-Aid]

Yeah, but the memory of some ex's stay with you like a bad rash...in some cases literally

As for Ben, so far it's been what? Ten years? Hasn't shown up yet. Then again, a lot of people thought the Green Goblin would stay dead...and Aunt May, Uncle Ben (although he's from an alternate universe) And like I said, even if Peter was cloned AGAIN and the new clone called himself Ben Reilly, he wouldn't BE Ben Reilly because Ben had certain experiences characteristic of him (besides having false memories of being Peter, which is not really experience).

True which proves the point that Ben wasn't totally just a Pete copy.

There was more to him and he had diffrent experinces after the Jackel had the 2 first meet.

 

[Kool-Aid]

But see, Clones don't turn to dust. Fake Ben = Real Ben somewhere else. It was a clone of a clone, dammit!

 

[spidey-dude]

*Sigh* This is usually the part where I come up with the obligitory counter attacking insult that goes on and on and ends up being a waste of time. This is what I get for trying to get to come on these boards and try to have a little enjoyment. I just don't understand why someone would attack another person without getting all the facts., obviously you're really angry about something in your life and it really doesn't have anything to do with me, so I will cease to be offended. Just a little friendly advice, and I wear Im not trying to be condescending, but if you stop and take an honest look at yourself you'll see who your real enemy is. I'm sure you're a good guy when you want to be.

errrrm i never attacked you? you attacked me! I have no enemy, in fact even in my response i never insulted you..........anyway back on topic I think Ben would be great as scarlet spider in a team, although I still think he could return take over one of the main spider titles and then we can have single spidey adventures like joe Q wants and still have pete married to MJ

 

[Odin's Lapdog]

For one thing, personally i dont see ben reilly in the iron spidey suit. He's not a hand me downs kinda person, he has his own look and personality. He could have easily kept wearing the spidey costume when he was scarlet spider or even worn it when parker was out of the picture for a while,

in both cases he didn't and re-invented himself twice. to now say that he would take an old costume of parker's is not like him at all. Money wise and all, reilly has had it worse than pete and has managed to get some things together so it's not even a financial issue.

I see nothing wrong with having ben and parker around still. When they were written and even now, they represent two different things.

Parker is more grounded now, less carefree and has repsonsiblities, it would have been better if he also had responsibilities as a father but so be it.

Ben's responsibilities are far less and he's younger at heart and more care free, his fears and enemies are different because he has different levels of exposure to them since overall he would have been away for around ten years.

plus his relationship to aunt may now that she's back would also be different and seeing whether she would accept him now is something that could be built on.


plus with all the power changes that have happened to spidey, one can assume that clones wouldn't be affected in the same way (kinda like how buffy is THE ONE while faith and the others are just slayers). Seeing how Parker being suped up affects Ben reilly being relatively ordinary and if that big brother relationship comes into affect and if ben has problems being not only a clone, but an outdated one, imagine all the webshooter vs organic jokes they could exploit.

plus any return of ben means the return of Kaine and that can't be a bad thing.

plus the greatest bonus of all, is that they can each help cover the other's secret identity by being around when the other isn't supposed to be there (parker with the altering suit can pull it off easier while ben has to do costume changes, again can add interest).

I mean what's better tha Norman having his own private spider-man to beat up over the last 6 years.

to be fair, of all clones and alternate timelines in all fiction, ben and kaine are the best. there aren't many i feel that are better than the original but in this case, i can say yep, they actually are.

plus ben's got better fashion sense

 

[spidey-dude]

that was a great read Odin'sLapdog, and very good arguement put across, I happen to agree fully, give Pete two titles and Ben one and we can get some great stories, with occasional team ups and crossovers between them