Black Panther User Review Thread - Tag Spoilers

[KRYPTON INC.]

Uh... Huh...

Someone is being willfully obtuse here. And it's not me. I'll let the reading public of the Internet decide who is who.

 

[Rocanrol]

Oh, I just sent you an MP so we do not further de-rail this debate. But could you explain me where I am being obtuse? Or someone for that matter, I'm not joking :/

ps: I'm not american... that helps?

 

[beenie123]

Actually I liked that intro, and I understand that served a dual purpose to set BP not only as a warrior and hunter, but also as a hero and liberator; a dichotomy that was a constant reason for struggle and inner conflict.

African nations in films are usually portrayed as either blood-thirsty guerrilla savages or spear-wielding uncivilized savages. And despite the faux-flare of empowering black culture that BP is, that stereotype is still set in stone. Even between wakandans, outside the utopic capital, they live in huts. Spot. On.

Didn't find it appealing or i would rather say well presented how the african-american black empowering ideology oozes through Killmonger. (Yes I know where and when BP comes from). Still didn't get that aspect of the character fully, or why that fueled him.

TLDR; I think this movie was not only cheap, but coward. It could have embraced the sensitive matters with more courage instead of hovering above. Isolation and abandonment, war with oneself and peace with others, the struggle between being a good person and a good king, hate and forgiveness, etc.; this are all themes touched in the movie ever so slightly.

I'm sorry but I have not seen so much rubbish in one post before. I'm wondering if you actually fell asleep through the movie or everything went over your head.

1. Its a comicbook movie about a technologically advanced african nation. That right there stops any sort of parallels with real life african nations. Yes there are some homages paid to some african cultures through the costume designs, production sets and soundtrack but that's where it ends. It's mostly an adaptation of a character who's comics has 50+ years of history so them fighting in ritual combat is not perpetuating any stereotypes but rather an adaptation from the comics as a way to earn the superhero title of the black panther and in turn grant special abilities. Outside of W'kabi who is shown to be intent on raging some kind of war as implied with his first conversation with T'Challa, wakanda is presented to be mostly civilised people who believe in their country and respects its culture and traditions. Besisdes the rituals for the throne, the only time they engage in violence is if someone steals their vibranium or kills one of them or the end when Killmonger decided not to continue the challenge.

And as for your point about them living in huts outside of the capital, again I'm gonna assume you missed part of the movie as its clearly explained that is what they use as a faux to show the outside world and help them stay hidden. It's explained that W'kabi is the leader of the boarder tribe who parade themselves as what western society views african countries to help maintain wakandas secrecy. There's a news channel at the start that mentions it aswel as ross in the interrogation room so yes the hut and stuff are all intentionally done by them.

2. You don't get why an african american kid with no father figure growing up in the 90's in oakland will grow up with a strong sense of racial identity and ideology? And you're saying you didn't get that aspect fully when during one of the flashback scenes his father clearly states injustices he felt african americans had been facing in the states and killmonger himself states that to the wakandans several times when he goes there and how they've watched and done nothing. He explicitly states it himself so how you can say you didn't get that aspect of the character is besides me. Hell the first and last sentences killmonger says in the movie has him referring in some manner to things that happened to his ancestors. (the museum scene with the lady and before his death) So clearly the movie went out of its way to make it known this is a character who has a huge chip on his shoulder when it comes to what he deems as racial injustices.

3. Now on the last point on the movie being cowardly and not embracing its themes I'm really struggling to see how you got there but here we are. A disney marvel movie where these sentences are said with no irony by the characters, 'don't scare me like that colonizer', 'oh another broken white boy for us to fix', 'do you think your ancestors paid a fair price when they stole it', 'bury me in the ocean with my ancestors who jumped from the ships as they knew death was better than bondage', I'm paraphrasing some of these but do you seriously think a marvel movie with these sentences is them being cowardly. Hell they even imply at some stage though ross that the US government have operations through their black ops where they look to destabilise other governments. The major theme of the movie was with Identity. The racial identity of killmonger vs the national identity of T'challa and the wakandans(besides nakia) and they explored it very well with all the characters involved.

I mean some of these are clearly shown or explained in the movie so outside of some personal projections on the movies supposed view of africa you are just flat out wrong in many of your statements.

 

[Rocanrol]

I'm sorry but I have not seen so much rubbish in one post before. I'm wondering if you actually fell asleep through the movie or everything went over your head.

"Nothing goes over my head. My reflexes are too fast... I would catch it."

1. Its a comicbook movie about a technologically advanced african nation. That right there stops any sort of parallels with real life african nations. Yes there are some homages paid to some african cultures through the costume designs, production sets and soundtrack but that's where it ends. It's mostly an adaptation of a character who's comics has 50+ years of history so them fighting in ritual combat is not perpetuating any stereotypes but rather an adaptation from the comics as a way to earn the superhero title of the black panther and in turn grant special abilities. Outside of W'kabi who is shown to be intent on raging some kind of war as implied with his first conversation with T'Challa, wakanda is presented to be mostly civilised people who believe in their country and respects its culture and traditions. Besisdes the rituals for the throne, the only time they engage in violence is if someone steals their vibranium or kills one of them or the end when Killmonger decided not to continue the challenge.

I didn't say anything against this, I understand the homage that BP does to african culture in general (Wakanda being a collage of several cultures), and love its designs and its costumes. I wasn't saying about how tradition was represented, nor anything like it. I wasn't talking about those stereotypes, and I understand too that the movie has a limited runtime to go more in depth with the story.

I really likes how Wakanda capital was done, didn't like the unbelievable level of technology they had, but nevertheless. Didn't understand the reasoning behind the graffitties (yes, there are graffity tags in the capital) in the city.

And as for your point about them living in huts outside of the capital, again I'm gonna assume you missed part of the movie as its clearly explained that is what they use as a faux to show the outside world and help them stay hidden. It's explained that W'kabi is the leader of the boarder tribe who parade themselves as what western society views african countries to help maintain wakandas secrecy. There's a news channel at the start that mentions it aswel as ross in the interrogation room so yes the hut and stuff are all intentionally done by them.

I get what you say about W'Kabi, but why in huts and raising rhinos? (the rhino's is only part joke)

Wakanda is a COUNTRY, but it got only one city? And what about the gorilla tribe? Was a façade how they lived too? (in the middle of a snowy mountain, with caveman technology and clothing) All wakandians live like kings in the capital and no one else lives outside? How many wakandians are there?

And also yes, I know wakanda is surrounded by mountains, but my point it's still true.

2. You don't get why an african american kid with no father figure growing up in the 90's in oakland will grow up with a strong sense of racial identity and ideology? And you're saying you didn't get that aspect fully when during one of the flashback scenes his father clearly states injustices he felt african americans had been facing in the states and killmonger himself states that to the wakandans several times when he goes there and how they've watched and done nothing. He explicitly states it himself so how you can say you didn't get that aspect of the character is besides me. Hell the first and last sentences killmonger says in the movie has him referring in some manner to things that happened to his ancestors. (the museum scene with the lady and before his death) So clearly the movie went out of its way to make it known this is a character who has a huge chip on his shoulder when it comes to what he deems as racial injustices.

I don't understand how N'jobu selling magical metal to an arms dealer was furthering the african-american social agenda.

I get the PERSONAL motivations of Killmonger, his hate and lack of hugs, like I can understand by extrapolation how an american young blackman in the 90's was not going to have a good time.

Was Killmonger final plot a racial war? In america? In the world?

3. Now on the last point on the movie being cowardly and not embracing its themes I'm really struggling to see how you got there but here we are. A disney marvel movie where these sentences are said with no irony by the characters, 'don't scare me like that colonizer', 'oh another broken white boy for us to fix', 'do you think your ancestors paid a fair price when they stole it', 'bury me in the ocean with my ancestors who jumped from the ships as they knew death was better than bondage', I'm paraphrasing some of these but do you seriously think a marvel movie with these sentences is them being cowardly. Hell they even imply at some stage though ross that the US government have operations through their black ops where they look to destabilise other governments. The major theme of the movie was with Identity. The racial identity of killmonger vs the national identity of T'challa and the wakandans(besides nakia) and they explored it very well with all the characters involved.

I got no quarrell here, except that some of those are lacking in depth, because the narrative and the characters don't sustain those words. (there were a few highlights, and liked how characters were portrayed, i'm not bashing the whole film).

I repeat yet again, I understand Killmonger obtuse world-view and his blind rage, but there it ends. His father's agenda was senseless just the same, but at least I understand were does Killmonger comes from. But, again, slavery existed in Africa since always, and still exist in some form. African men kept warring with each other and selling each other to the highest bidder all the time.

I mean some of these are clearly shown or explained in the movie so outside of some personal projections on the movies supposed view of africa you are just flat out wrong in many of your statements.

For me are not that clearly shown or explained, and relay on people not paying enough attention (and when pointed out they say "hey its a CBM!") or a really biased crowd.

I ask yet again (but maybe answer me in PM so we don't keep derailing offtopic), what was the plan? Fuel insurgency of all black men? all exploited black men? All exploited men?

These movies keep getting so bad I'm not going to the cinema any longer to watch them. Gonna torrent the hell out of these CBMs, just like a did with T:R.

 

[javonstokess]

But that's my point exactly, how BP is a black-empowering façade. Just flare. The only african people that thrives is the centric wakandan, thanks to their utopic magical metal. Otherwise you are a guerrilla fighter or a spear warrior. It would be like the only kind of north-americans portrayed were red-necks and thugs.

As a black man, I disagree with you. It was quite empowering to see a super hero (cause it's a super hero film) be a black man that's NOT a thug, gang member, deadbeat dad or any of the other stereotypes generally associated with black characters in film. Also, so what if Wakanda thrives due to Vibranium, America thrived due to gold and oil. What would it be without it? It's short-sighted to believe that there aren't other African nations that aren't progressive and thriving. The point of Wakanda (in the comics and film) is that it's a society that has embraced technology but also never forgot it's history and traditions.

I understand that, and think that the character of Killmonger was the best bit of the film, even in his personal motivation. It's his grand scheme that I don't get. I really think that the "black power" ideology that oozes through the character is not well explained/debated. Slavery have existed in Africa since always, selling their conquered to the highest bidder, being black, white or whatever. There are countries all over the world with african descendants. Where is the line drawn? Are all black people brothers and sisters to Killmonger? N'Jobu's plan was to liberate all african-americans? Are these any different from other exploited poor black men from other countries or any exploited group for that matter?

I think you're missing the point of Killmonger. His words were correct, but his actions betrayed them. He was a man that ran on pure rage and violence that essentially lost his purpose. Look at his first actions after becoming King; more violence and war mongering. It was pretty much spelled out when his father shed a tear for him during his "spirit walk". As for the argument about slavery, I hate to tell you but whether africans sold their own or held them in slavery, it doesn't change the fact that BILLIONS of african americans around the world have a disconnect from their lineage and history due to slavery, which was a part of Killmonger's point.

1º After 10 years of MCU and BP testing in Civil War, there was no bravery involved, just economics.

Name the last 200 million dollar movie with a nearly all black cast that was mainly based in Africa. When you figure out you can't, then you'll see how brave it was to make this movie.

2º No social nor political theme was really touched or discussed in any form of depth because that wasn't what really mattered, just economics.

You just contradicted yourself. You just spoke in your first two paragraphs about the politics of the movie and then turned around and said nothing was touched on.

Although I understand what you are saying, that's no excuse for poor quality.

Clearly you are in the minority regarding it being "poor quality".

 

[Rocanrol]

As a black man, I disagree with you. It was quite empowering to see a super hero (cause it's a super hero film) be a black man that's NOT a thug, gang member, deadbeat dad or any of the other stereotypes generally associated with black characters in film. Also, so what if Wakanda thrives due to Vibranium, America thrived due to gold and oil. What would it be without it? It's short-sighted to believe that there aren't other African nations that aren't progressive and thriving. The point of Wakanda (in the comics and film) is that it's a society that has embraced technology but also never forgot it's history and traditions.

I'm all in favor of empowering figures, and there are several minorities that need their own treatment! I also like to see a black character that isn't a drug-addict, a thug or a victim.

I also liked how wakandan culture was portrayed and loved that still got it's traditions intact. That was one of the strongest points of the film i believe.

I think you're missing the point of Killmonger. His words were correct, but his actions betrayed them. He was a man that ran on pure rage and violence that essentially lost his purpose. Look at his first actions after becoming King; more violence and war mongering. It was pretty much spelled out when his father shed a tear for him during his "spirit walk". As for the argument about slavery, I hate to tell you but whether africans sold their own or held them in slavery, it doesn't change the fact that BILLIONS of african americans around the world have a disconnect from their lineage and history due to slavery, which was a part of Killmonger's point.

I get Killmonger personal motivations, and that's the strongest quality of the character. I also understand that it touches a nerve to a lot of disempowered african-americans, as a warning too of harboring too much hate.

Name the last 200 million dollar movie with a nearly all black cast that was mainly based in Africa. When you figure out you can't, then you'll see how brave it was to make this movie.

10 years of MCU and Disney back up don't make the movie brave.

You just contradicted yourself. You just spoke in your first two paragraphs about the politics of the movie and then turned around and said nothing was touched on.

I refered how the subject was only grazed, hovering above it. I hope it would be more engaging and thoughtful. It wasn't for me.

Clearly you are in the minority regarding it being "poor quality".

I'm always a minority in that regard, CBM or movies in general.

The F&F franchise for example is crap, sells tickets worldwide and its movies are generally regarded as good.

ps: I'm really starting to believe that either I'm touching a nerve or my lack of english vocabulary it's giving the wrong message or bad impression.

 

[beenie123]

"Nothing goes over my head. My reflexes are too fast... I would catch it."



I didn't say anything against this, I understand the homage that BP does to african culture in general (Wakanda being a collage of several cultures), and love its designs and its costumes. I wasn't saying about how tradition was represented, nor anything like it. I wasn't talking about those stereotypes, and I understand too that the movie has a limited runtime to go more in depth with the story.

I really likes how Wakanda capital was done, didn't like the unbelievable level of technology they had, but nevertheless. Didn't understand the reasoning behind the graffitties (yes, there are graffity tags in the capital) in the city.



I get what you say about W'Kabi, but why in huts and raising rhinos? (the rhino's is only part joke)

Wakanda is a COUNTRY, but it got only one city? And what about the gorilla tribe? Was a façade how they lived too? (in the middle of a snowy mountain, with caveman technology and clothing) All wakandians live like kings in the capital and no one else lives outside? How many wakandians are there?

And also yes, I know wakanda is surrounded by mountains, but my point it's still true.



I don't understand how N'jobu selling magical metal to an arms dealer was furthering the african-american social agenda.

I get the PERSONAL motivations of Killmonger, his hate and lack of hugs, like I can understand by extrapolation how an american young blackman in the 90's was not going to have a good time.

Was Killmonger final plot a racial war? In america? In the world?



I got no quarrell here, except that some of those are lacking in depth, because the narrative and the characters don't sustain those words. (there were a few highlights, and liked how characters were portrayed, i'm not bashing the whole film).

I repeat yet again, I understand Killmonger obtuse world-view and his blind rage, but there it ends. His father's agenda was senseless just the same, but at least I understand were does Killmonger comes from. But, again, slavery existed in Africa since always, and still exist in some form. African men kept warring with each other and selling each other to the highest bidder all the time.



For me are not that clearly shown or explained, and relay on people not paying enough attention (and when pointed out they say "hey its a CBM!") or a really biased crowd.

I ask yet again (but maybe answer me in PM so we don't keep derailing offtopic), what was the plan? Fuel insurgency of all black men? all exploited black men? All exploited men?

These movies keep getting so bad I'm not going to the cinema any longer to watch them. Gonna torrent the hell out of these CBMs, just like a did with T:R.

Honestly at this point I have no idea how what you wrote relates to any of the points I brought up, as the poster a couple above said maybe you're being wilfully obtuse and there's nothing much I can say that will get through to you so let's leave it at that

 

[Rocanrol]

I quoted and answered individually each argumment without calling it rubbish or resorting to name-calling. Clearly I'm not the one being obtuse.


CB audience you have done it once again. I'm out of patience.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

1º After 10 years of MCU and BP testing in Civil War, there was no bravery involved, just economics.

2º No social nor political theme was really touched or discussed in any form of depth because that wasn't what really mattered, just economics.



Although I understand what you are saying, that's no excuse for poor quality.

No... You don't have a point.



But let's concentrate on these three non-points you are trying to make.

1. Word is that Bob Iger had to make an executive decision in backing the creation of this film and in using Black Panther as Feige wished because the Disney board, thinking in strictly economic terms thought it would be a money loser, seeing as they parroted the usual stance that "Black" films do poorly in the international market, but just as important to them, merchandise based on "Black" characters wouldn't sell.

Also, your stance can easily be interpreted as saying this movie only happened because CIVIL WAR was a hit. That is simply not at all the truth. It was in the works before, and regardless of CW's BO the BP film was already in pre-production etc. when CW was filming. Coogler himself was on set conferring with the Russos about the character and presentation of T'challa in that movie. So no, the success of CW did not matter to the existence of a Panther movie. This was in the works for a long time as anyone paying attention would know.

2. One can argue about "depth", maybe, but the facts that these themes were touched on at all, and not in a Nolanesqe way of just having characters espouse philosophical points but making them part of the characters make-up is something laudable. This film could have had that aspect easily neutered and never touched on at all to placate those at Disney that were not comfortable with the possible effect that might have on the BO. So... No, the economic argument you are making is nowhere near as strong as you think it is.

3. The only poor quality aspect of this film I can see is some less than optimal CGI in some sequences. I don't have to pick apart anything else in your argument about story, setting, characters or themes in this regard as others on this page have done it already.

 

[JtheDreamer]

I quoted and answered individually each argumment without calling it rubbish or resorting to name-calling. Clearly I'm not the one being obtuse.


CB audience you have done it once again. I'm out of patience.

It tends to happen man - unfortunately.

 

[daddydivine]

Reading some comments here make me realize how lucky the people that loved the movie really are... because if a vocal minority had their way we'd have one terrible movie.

Thank god for Feige having remarkable taste.

 

[JtheDreamer]

Reading some comments here make me realize how lucky the people that loved the movie really are... because if a vocal minority had their way we'd have one terrible movie.

Thank god for Feige having remarkable taste.

 

[daddydivine]

Never said it was your comments. Just realized how lucky i am that this movie was so amazing to me.

And when i realize that if the movie had been made to appeal to a few others, how disappointed i'd be if that version was made.

I think Black Panther is groundbreaking, that the critics and the general audience got it right in saying this movie is a game changer.

I understand every opinion is valid, just glad i saw a movie that matched mine.

 

[JtheDreamer]

Never said it was your comments. Just realized how lucky i am that this movie was so amazing to me.

And when i realize that if the movie had been made to appeal to a few others, how disappointed i'd be if that version was made.

I think Black Panther is groundbreaking, that the critics and the general audience got it right in saying this movie is a game changer.

I understand every opinion is valid, just glad i saw a movie that matched mine.

No worries.

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

Finally saw Black Panther and was blown away. Just an excellent film with fantastic characters across the board. Easily in my top 5 MCU. First Ragnarok and now this (such totally different films too!) Marvel has been lights out lately. It's going to be hard for Infinity War to keep the bar this high.

 

[Adhesive Boy]

This was a really good movie.

The first things that hit me are all the African aesthetics and cultural influences. That's something that feels fresh. It also has good characters across the board and there are some interesting themes at play.

The action was pretty good overall, but the final battle didn't quite live up to the build. Not a big issue though and it wasn't bad by any means.

I do however have a bit of an issue with some of the US connections, although I understand fully well why those are there. When T'Challa chooses to make his first contribution to supporting the outside world in the US, rather than somewhere in Africa, it leaves a sour aftertaste.

 

[javonstokess]

This was a really good movie.

The first things that hit me are all the African aesthetics and cultural influences. That's something that feels fresh. It also has good characters across the board and there are some interesting themes at play.

The action was pretty good overall, but the final battle didn't quite live up to the build. Not a big issue though and it wasn't bad by any means.

I do however have a bit of an issue with some of the US connections, although I understand fully well why those are there. When T'Challa chooses to make his first contribution to supporting the outside world in the US, rather than somewhere in Africa, it leaves a sour aftertaste.

IMO, T'Challa picked that area (first) to try to right the wrong of his father's mistake.

 

[DeadStroke]

IMO, T'Challa picked that area (first) to try to right the wrong of his father's mistake.

Yep. He clearly states he wanted to start where his father [BLACKOUT]killed his brother[/BLACKOUT].

 

[Havok83]

IMO, T'Challa picked that area (first) to try to right the wrong of his father's mistake.

and it wasnt about helping the US, but more about helping young black youths. He was inspired by listening to Killmonger

 

[javonstokess]

and it wasnt about helping the US, but more about helping young black youths. He was inspired by listening to Killmonger

...and Nakia, of course.

 

[Creo]

It was good, but not great.

Pros:

World building. Wakanda is awesome, and as others have stated, is almost a character in and of itself. My favorite scene of the movie is the initial descent into Wakanda when they break through the invisible barrier.

Cinematography: the movie is (mostly) beautiful and a pleasure to watch. This is likely the best looking movie in the MCU in terms of cinematography.

Supporting cast: Please give me a Shuri movie. Seriously, they pretty much all knock out of of the park, and they're well developed.

Villain: Michael knocks it out of the park. He has understandable motive, despite him being a horrible reflection of everything he hates. He's top 3 villains for me.

Action: the action outside of most of the fight scenes was really enjoyable. The car chase being my favorite.

Cons:

T'Challa: honestly the weakest point of the movie for me. He's kind of bland, and doesn't get me excited to see him in future movies nearly as much as his supporting cast does. Also, they completely ignore his character ark from CW and make him perfectly happy to hunt down Klaue and kill him (though he was stopped) out of anger and vengeance.

Fight scenes: They were often difficult to follow and filmed too close up. Fairly weak, though I'm sure they were well choreographed.

CGI: This has been hitting the MCU a bit lately (I still get nightmares about Tony at the airport), but it was pretty bad in parts.

The finale: The finale was alright, but not nearly as epic as it was designed to be. The fight with BP and Killmonger was just not good.

Overall 7/10.

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

IMO, T'Challa picked that area (first) to try to right the wrong of his father's mistake.

Yes that's how I interpreted his actions.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Hmm... Was it really a rolling back of character for Panther to want to bring back Klaue or kill him? Remember in this case Klaw has nothing in terms of personal connection to T'challa. This wasn't a case of Panther's anger or passion leading him down a dark path. No... He's a king. A king handing out justice sanctified legally by the nation he rules. Klaw was a fugitive from Wakandan justice, one that was unquestionably guilty in the eyes of Wakandan law. This was not a personal act this was a king's attempt to bring justice to his people that had been wronged.

 

[Reaver027]

Watched it yesterday. Great movie but the beginning felt a little all over the place and disconnected. The movie found its way after a third and got way better.
I don't really understand the hype and calling it the best cbm ever. I like Nolan's Batman and Winter Soldier a lot more.
8/10

 

[Creo]

Hmm... Was it really a rolling back of character for Panther to want to bring back Klaue or kill him? Remember in this case Klaw has nothing in terms of personal connection to T'challa. This wasn't a case of Panther's anger or passion leading him down a dark path. No... He's a king. A king handing out justice sanctified legally by the nation he rules. Klaw was a fugitive from Wakandan justice, one that was unquestionably guilty in the eyes of Wakandan law. This was not a personal act this was a king's attempt to bring justice to his people that had been wronged.

For me, yes. If he'd killed him mid fight it would have been different. As it was, he incipacutated him, disarmed him (literally), and had him down for the count. In his anger he decided to kill him anyway, which is cold blooded murder. He said he'd bring him back alive, and kill him if he couldn't. He'd also recently prevented Zemo from killing himself, the man who killed his father and the King of Wakanda, from killing himself so that he could face justice. So for me, it was a regression in character.