Can we call out European Cowardice?

StorminNorman

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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article6032342.ece

With the buzz of the North Korean Missile Crisis, Sarah Palin's almost son-in-law and Sinewave's and mine epic dance the Hype Politico has seemed to ignore one huge issue: Europe's refusal to send troops into Afghanistan. Now I am not going to bash Obama in this thread, because quite frankly his actions in Europe should be commended. Obama did his best to win over European support for a conflict whose importance he recognizes. The fact is that Europe, much like the UN, has proved itself to lack the spine to do what is right, settling for what is easy.

I support the Iraq War, I always have and always will, but I understand how a rational, clear thinking person could object to it. Afghanistan, however, is war entirely. There is a clear good and evil, an identifiable right and wrong.

The Taliban and Al Queda are threats to the world, a threat that Europe has ignored. In doing so they risk the lives not only of every single America, but every single European.

Now I understand that France and German have troops in Afghanistan, and Great Britian is serving its traditional role as Ally 1, but with America increasing its presence in the area to crush the Taliban once and for all, our allies should follow suit.

Sticking your heads in the sand solves nothing.

Now for years I have heard that no one likes America, they don't like our arrogance and they hated our cowboy leader. Fine. But Barry is our President now, and he has no problem admitting the faults of our country. The problem is Europe won't admit its own: cowardice.
 
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If some of the nations in Europe don't want to get involved, that's their choice.
 
With the buzz of the North Korean Missile Crisis, Sarah Palin's almost son-in-law and Sinewave's and mine epic dance the Hype Politico has seemed to ignore one huge issue: Europe's refusal to send troops into Afghanistan. Now I am not going to bash Obama in this thread, because quite frankly his actions in Europe should be commended. Obama did his best to win over European support for a conflict whose importance he recognizes. The fact is that Europe, much like the UN, has proved itself to lack the spine to do what is right, settling for what is easy.


Have you thought that the reason why European hadn't been involved with Afghanistan is because the relationship with America was terrible? Why would they stick around getting their soldier killed in a war with no clear goals or good leadership from America? No point staying there if the mission to clear out al queada and Taliban had gone belly up with no leverage to get it run better?

I support the Iraq War, I always have and always will, but I understand how a rational, clear thinking person could object to it. Afghanistan, however, is war entirely. There is a clear good and evil, an identifiable right and wrong.

Agreed.

The Taliban and Al Queda are threats to the world, a threat that Europe has ignored. In doing so they risk the lives not only of every single America, but every single European.

Now I understand that France and German have troops in Afghanistan, and Great Britian is serving its traditional role as Ally 1, but with America increasing its presence in the area to crush the Taliban once and for all, our allies should follow suit.

Sticking your heads in the sand solves nothing.

Mrs Merkel met Afghan President Hamid Karzai and is expected to visit the troops whose mandate was recently renewed by Germany's parliament.
They are based in northern Afghanistan as part of a Nato deployment.
Mrs Merkel's government insisted on the renewal of the mandate for the German contingent, in spite of strong public opinion opposition.
The lower house of the German parliament, the Bundestag, voted on 12 October to extend the military engagement in Afghanistan.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7076347.stm

Our allies are following suit. It's amazing how fast Obama has got this thing turned around. :up:


Now for years I have heard that no one likes America, they don't like our arrogance and they hated our cowboy leader. Fine. But Barry is our President now, and he has no problem admitting the faults of our country. The problem is Europe won't admit its own: cowardice.
European has many faults but they are not cowards you make them out to be IMO. America's awful handling of the war made is a more logical reason for their absence. You think it's a coincidence Europe is showing signs of helping after Obama showed up :hehe:
 
Have you thought that the reason why European hadn't been involved with Afghanistan is because the relationship with America was terrible? Why would they stick around getting their soldier killed in a war with no clear goals or good leadership from America? No point staying there if the mission to clear out al queada and Taliban had gone belly up with no leverage to get it run better?

I am not questioning why there weren't involved under Bush. I am criticizing their lack of support for Obama.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7076347.stm

Our allies are following suit. It's amazing how fast Obama has got this thing turned around. :up:

Except our allies aren't following suit. Going in for a Photo Op, but not actually pledging addition boots on the ground isn't progress.

European has many faults but they are not cowards you make them out to be IMO. America's awful handling of the war made is a more logical reason for their absence. You think it's a coincidence Europe is showing signs of helping after Obama showed up :hehe:

Except our European "allies" has just stated they will NOT increase troop sizes in Afghanistan. After Obama begged them to. They are refusing to aid his effort against obvious evil. That is cowardly.
 
Well, you think their choice is wrong. If they decide to help, fine. If not, fine.

Just because you're friends with someone doesn't mean you have to do every single thing they want you to do
 
I am not questioning why there weren't involved under Bush. I am criticizing their lack of support for Obama.

Except our allies aren't following suit. Going in for a Photo Op, but not actually pledging addition boots on the ground isn't progress.



Except our European "allies" has just stated they will NOT increase troop sizes in Afghanistan. After Obama begged them to. They are refusing to aid his effort against obvious evil. That is cowardly.
Do you have links for this? How do you know they're not doing this and it takes a while to get things moving? Germany already has shown interest in helping in Afghanistan. France may not be that far behind. Though, as Addendum mentioned, they may be for their own reasons. It would be disappointing but America has no right to tell them how to use their militaries.
 
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Norman does have a point though. The world complained when America goes at it alone, so when we ask for help by a President who is very pro-multilateralism, they don't do anything about it. What a load of hypocrisy.
 
Is the word "help" supposed to be some magic word that just makes people do something?
 
Norman does have a point though. The world complained when America goes at it alone, so when we ask for help by a President who is very pro-multilateralism, they don't do anything about it. What a load of hypocrisy.
Barack Obama today won agreement for substantial Nato troop reinforcements in Afghanistan, when nine European nations, including Britain, said they would send up to 5,000 troops and logistical help ahead of the presidential elections there in August. Britain is to send 900 extra troops almost immediately, who will remain until October.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/apr/04/europe-troops-afghanistan-nato-obama

That looks like help to me.
 
I think after 9/11, US would have received more help against Afghanistan and Taliban, because there was a worldwide sympathy for US, but the Iraq war polarized the world community, and the focus was derailed by Bush's campaign against Saddam Hussein. However, I do agree that now the allies should do something to stop the Taliban and al Qaeda in Afghan, since Bush is no longer in office, but I can also understand if they are wary of the situation because the war has continued for years but not only is bin Ladin not caught, but Afghanistan is still not really stable, not to mention Pakistan has made this issue far more complex due to their sheltering of Taliban fighters.
 
The Europeans are playing it smart methinks. I believe if the situation in Afghanistan improves we'll see more commitment from our allies. What the US needs to do is make a good case where we'll see a positive end game. Thus far Europe is going with the wait and see approach which I completely understand.
 
Afghanistan is our problem primarily, does it make them cowards to not get involved? Did it make the US cowards when they didn't want to get involved in WWII?
 
I think after 9/11, US would have received more help against Afghanistan and Taliban, because there was a worldwide sympathy for US, but the Iraq war polarized the world community, and the focus was derailed by Bush's campaign against Saddam Hussein. However, I do agree that now the allies should do something to stop the Taliban and al Qaeda in Afghan, since Bush is no longer in office, but I can also understand if they are wary of the situation because the war has continued for years but not only is bin Ladin not caught, but Afghanistan is still not really stable, not to mention Pakistan has made this issue far more complex due to their sheltering of Taliban fighters.

You shouldn't need to sympathize with America in order to combat a threat against your country. Al Queda is not simply an American problem, they are a threat to any rational person. Yes, I understand Afghanistan is not stable - thats why we need the extra support...to make it stable.

The Europeans are playing it smart methinks. I believe if the situation in Afghanistan improves we'll see more commitment from our allies. What the US needs to do is make a good case where we'll see a positive end game. Thus far Europe is going with the wait and see approach which I completely understand.

So Europe only wants to make an effort if they know the end is success? That proves the point of cowardice.

Afghanistan is our problem primarily, does it make them cowards to not get involved? Did it make the US cowards when they didn't want to get involved in WWII?

But Afghanistan is NOT only our problem. Al Queda has attacked Spain, they have attacked Britain, they are not just an American enemy. If Al Queda attacks a state again, it will likely be in Europe - not America.
 
At the heart of all of it most people think USA ia arrogant Bushes "with us of against us" is still in thier heads.

Watching fox news you get the impression they think all europeans are barbarians and the US is rome looking down on the unwashed masses. o reilly saying the other day "Euro civilisations are eroding" got me very angry America is many great things but this from the murder,porn,crazed random violence capitol of the western world? pleeze.

Theres also the slight feeling its a US problem before 9/11 you where blissfully oblivious to radical Islam,yes, you knew it existed but it was sidelined to crazys hijacking the occasional plane or a bombing in Europe while you played off the various Arab world factions against each other,(iran contra ect) remember Saddam was your great friend only a few short years ago 9/11 tradgicly happend and when you where attacked Radical islam is the most important problem in the world and your TERRIBLE handling of the WMD fiasco didnt help.

You took all the goodwill of 9/11 and squandered it the euros will come round eventually but they still have a "you have to stew" attitude its petty but thats world politics.
 
You shouldn't need to sympathize with America in order to combat a threat against your country. Al Queda is not simply an American problem, they are a threat to any rational person. Yes, I understand Afghanistan is not stable - thats why we need the extra support...to make it stable.

Al-Qaeda is a network of terror cells. Occupation of a country and fighting a terrorist network are not the same things. Europe supports the war effort, the occupation thing is trickier. You need to understand that.


So Europe only wants to make an effort if they know the end is success? That proves the point of cowardice.

As opposed to sending their men to die for what could be a lost cause ? We're asking for help dude. They just want a plan that actually WORKS. What Europe wants to avoid is a failed operation like Iraq that lasts on and on for years with no foreseeable end in sight. You can't expect them to fully commit to something without a sound and effective plan. It would be stupid. Calling them cowards is also a *****e act especially when you consider that they have agreed to help out.

I expect the movement to gain more traction with time.The support will increase when we see more positive gains in the war effort.

But Afghanistan is NOT only our problem. Al Queda has attacked Spain, they have attacked Britain, they are not just an American enemy. If Al Queda attacks a state again, it will likely be in Europe - not America.

Assuming where the attacks will be next is utterly presumptuous. Al-Qaeda is recognized as a threat and they are staying vigil which is why we share intelligence with each other but Afghanistan IS primarily our problem since America is the one who invaded it. Like it or not, that's the reality of the situation. We'll have support but get used to the idea that the US is mostly on its own.

US foreign policy decisions over the decades is what created Al-Qaeda so the problem at its root is not really Afghanistan. Radical and fundamentalist thought was festered after years of anger and resentment over our missteps and misdeeds. Osama Bin Laden was a Saudi, as were 20% of the 9/11 hijackers. Understand that even as Afghanistan is won, Al-Qaeda would still survive as long as the reasons why they hate us are not properly addressed.
 
I don't think the kid is out of line in assuming the next attacks will be in Europe. With their increasingly dense enclaves of Muslims the recruitment pool for "boots on the ground in support or radical Islam" are ever expanding. Seems like there is just more opportunity there. I'm just waiting on Canada to get attacked - but only to see if anyone will notice:woot:
 
At the heart of all of it most people think USA ia arrogant Bushes "with us of against us" is still in thier heads.

Watching fox news you get the impression they think all europeans are barbarians and the US is rome looking down on the unwashed masses. o reilly saying the other day "Euro civilisations are eroding" got me very angry America is many great things but this from the murder,porn,crazed random violence capitol of the western world? pleeze.

Theres also the slight feeling its a US problem before 9/11 you where blissfully oblivious to radical Islam,yes, you knew it existed but it was sidelined to crazys hijacking the occasional plane or a bombing in Europe while you played off the various Arab world factions against each other,(iran contra ect) remember Saddam was your great friend only a few short years ago 9/11 tradgicly happend and when you where attacked Radical islam is the most important problem in the world and your TERRIBLE handling of the WMD fiasco didnt help.

You took all the goodwill of 9/11 and squandered it the euros will come round eventually but they still have a "you have to stew" attitude its petty but thats world politics.
Did you just address all of America from a Superhero Site's Political Forum?
 
I don't think some European nations are cowards they are commited to the war on terror as threats and attacks have happened to their countries its just disagreed with the Bush administrations approach to the war on terror and handling of Afghanistan/Iraq.

Also there was a hell of alot of dislike towards Bush in europe which most likely made euro politicians alot less willing to put support to any kind of operation he was spear heading.

God help us if Tony Blair gets that new european president role they are talking about
 
Did you just address all of America from a Superhero Site's Political Forum?

Is anything i stated actually not true? Radical Islam is all of a sudden the worlds most dire problem only because of 9/11 it stinks of hypocrisy and the Europeans know it.
 
After the way we screwed up in Iraq, I can sort of understand why Europe might be a little hesitant. I wouldn't be so crass as to call them cowards necessarily, wary is probably more appropriate.
 
Is anything i stated actually not true? Radical Islam is all of a sudden the worlds most dire problem only because of 9/11 it stinks of hypocrisy and the Europeans know it.

A lot of what you said was neither true nor false. It was all opinion.
 

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