Discussion: Relations with Russia

[DarthSkywalker]

It's about a strong deterrence as plan A, not war. If Putin pisses his pants and runs his imperialist invasion army back closer to Moscow mission accomplished. Plan B is the defense of Ukraine against Russia's invasion using force.

There wasn't a strong enough deterrence back in 2014 before Russia invaded and then not enough defense after they invaded.

Russo-Ukrainian War - Wikipedia

Nope, the US is agitating for war. Boris is out here looking for a distraction (he keeps bringing it up in PMQs) and the US weapons contractors are super excited to get paid.

The Ukraine is telling us that our government is lying again, and you are just ignoring that.

 

[OtherwiseKnownAs]

Ukraine is not asking for US support. Ukraine has consistently said there is no threat of war or invasion. The only people who are saying this are, you guessed it, pro-war Americans.

And it would only be a defense, huh? Just like we were only invading Iraq to help “liberate” the Iraqi people.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Ukraine is not asking for US support. Ukraine has consistently said there is no threat of war or invasion. The only people who are saying this are, you guessed it, pro-war Americans.

And it would only be a defense, huh? Just like we were only invading Iraq to help “liberate” the Iraqi people.

Which means our entire government outside of the progressives.

The Ukraine is pro support, they are not pro escalation, which is what the US and it's allies are doing. I'm not saying let Russia do what they want. But Biden is out here acting like a warhawk after all his big talk on rightly pulling out of our Afghanistan. Our foreign boogeyman switches from Russia and China every year. But instead of fighting them on a front that would actually help us (invest in foreign countries, fix our chip manufacturing, etc.), we instead just line the pocket of the elite building bombs.

 

[moviedoors]

Let's also not forgot that historically speaking, invading nations is good for presidential polling numbers, and last I checked, Biden's numbers were what we technically can call "in the toilet."

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Let's also not forgot that historically speaking, invading nations is good for presidential polling numbers, and last I checked, Biden's numbers were what we technically can call "in the toilet."

This is true. I didn't want to bring up the mid terms and Biden's vast drop in polling, because some might take it the wrong way. But you are right. If we are going to bring up that suggestion with Trump, it's fair to do it with Biden. Especially as he seems in straight up strongman mode.

 

[patam]

Ukraine is not asking for US support. Ukraine has consistently said there is no threat of war or invasion. The only people who are saying this are, you guessed it, pro-war Americans.

And it would only be a defense, huh? Just like we were only invading Iraq to help “liberate” the Iraqi people.

And this is the elephant in the room no one talks about. Haven't we learned anything from history? I really hope the US and NATO doesn't start another war using "Democracy and Human Rights" as an excuse, this would be so bad for all of us. I could see why in the eyes of Putin the US and NATO would seem as the aggressors with the military bases all over the world and the countless wars for "Democracy" that have caused so much unnecessary death and chaos in their path only to serve a very small group of powerful interests. But no matter what Putin is or the media presents him to be, please dear god let's not witness again another disaster.

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

Russia issued a list of demands for their invasion force that surrounds Ukraine. They are hostages.

Russia issues list of demands it says must be met to lower tensions in Europe | Russia | The Guardian

NPR - The U.S. says it will stand firm against major Russian demands as tension rises

Ukraine has accepted money and military assistance for months/years not rejected it,

Ukraine sends U.S. senators 4 specific requests on Russia sanctions, military aid

All these measures including sanctions being taken are to stave off DETER Russia from invading and providing a better defense should deterrence fail.

ABC News - Russia has chance for 'diplomatic way out' of Ukraine crisis: US ambassador to UN
“You don’t amass 100,000 troops if you don’t have intentions to use them.”



Al Jazeera - Latest Ukraine updates: Kyiv urges Russia to pull back troops

Kyiv has urged Moscow to pull back its troops from Ukraine’s border and continue dialogue with the West if it is “serious” about de-escalating tensions that have soared amid fears of a Russian invasion.

“Russia must continue diplomatic engagement and pull back military forces it amassed along Ukraine’s borders and in the temporarily occupied territories of Ukraine,” Ukrainian Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba said on Twitter.

Meanwhile, US senators said they are very close to reaching a deal on legislation to sanction Russia over its actions on Ukraine, and the British government said it will introduce new legislation this week to broaden the scope of sanctions it can apply to Russia, which has deployed tens of thousands of troops near the Ukrainian border.

Poland handing over defense aid to Ukraine – Duda’s Office

 

[Fosterson]

Nope, the US is agitating for war.

I'm not sure how you can justify this statement, given that the Biden Administration has been crystal clear that it has no plan to send US troops to Ukraine under any circumstance. NATO has echoed this.

Not sure how any of this counts as "agitating for war".

Boris is out here looking for a distraction (he keeps bringing it up in PMQs) and the US weapons contractors are super excited to get paid.

Sure, but that doesn't mean Russia's build up of troops isn't happening, or that it isn't concerning.

The Ukraine is telling us that our government is lying again, and you are just ignoring that.

Well, for one thing the Ukrainian government doesn't want mass panic among their population, so they will want to reassure them as much as possible. It may well also be due to the fact that Ukraine has had to deal with the reality of Russian aggression since 2014 so their attitude is probably like: "What's new?".

I would also point out that Ukraine's eager acceptance of military support from the US and other Western countries and publicly stated desire to join NATO is pretty clear evidence that they see the threat from Russia as real (even if an invasion isn't on the immediate horizon).

Nobody should be wanting a full-scale war between Russia and Ukraine, as it would be utterly devastating. However, whether or not a war breaks out is ultimately only a decision that Putin can make.

If you think Russia is incapable of behaving aggressively, I would argue that there are quite a few examples to the contrary..

 

[Fosterson]

Let's also not forgot that historically speaking, invading nations is good for presidential polling numbers, and last I checked, Biden's numbers were what we technically can call "in the toilet."

I'm confused. Exactly which country is Biden supposed to be invading here? Russia?

The US has 5,000 troops stationed in the Baltic States. Do you really think 5,000 troops is enough to invade Russia?

 

[Holy Slapper]

Nope, the US is agitating for war.

I'm sorry but this is the most clueless thing anyone has said in this thread. It's almost literal Russian state propaganda.

 

[Fosterson]

Ukraine is not asking for US support. Ukraine has consistently said there is no threat of war or invasion. The only people who are saying this are, you guessed it, pro-war Americans.

And it would only be a defense, huh? Just like we were only invading Iraq to help “liberate” the Iraqi people.

I really don't know what world some people live in.

"Ukraine is not asking for US support."

Huh?

Ukrainian defense minister says he's asked Pentagon for military assistance.

Ukraine sends U.S. senators 4 specific requests on Russia sanctions, military aid

And on the question of joining NATO:

Ukraine president says nation is ready to join NATO

And I really don't see the value in bringing up Iraq here. These are two totally unrelated and different situations, and the US is not going to invade Russia. Russia however, may (and I certainly hope not) be about to invade Ukraine.

The tendency of much of the anti-war left in the US and the West more broadly to view every single geopolitical event solely through the prism of Iraq 2003 is really reductive and lazy IMO. Jut as it is when neocons look at everything through the prism of Munich and the danger of appeasing dictators.

 

[Holy Slapper]

Which means our entire government outside of the progressives.

The Ukraine is pro support, they are not pro escalation, which is what the US and it's allies are doing. I'm not saying let Russia do what they want. But Biden is out here acting like a warhawk after all his big talk on rightly pulling out of our Afghanistan. Our foreign boogeyman switches from Russia and China every year. But instead of fighting them on a front that would actually help us (invest in foreign countries, fix our chip manufacturing, etc.), we instead just line the pocket of the elite building bombs.

That's the only way to talk to Putin. He understands strength, power.

 

[OtherwiseKnownAs]

I really don't know what world some people live in.

"Ukraine is not asking for US support."

Huh?

Ukrainian defense minister says he's asked Pentagon for military assistance.

Ukraine sends U.S. senators 4 specific requests on Russia sanctions, military aid

And on the question of joining NATO:

Ukraine president says nation is ready to join NATO

And I really don't see the value in bringing up Iraq here. These are two totally unrelated and different situations, and the US is not going to invade Russia. Russia however, may (and I certainly hope not) be about to invade Ukraine.

The tendency of much of the anti-war left in the US and the West more broadly to view every single geopolitical event solely through the prism of Iraq 2003 is really reductive and lazy IMO. Jut as it is when neocons look at everything through the prism of Munich and the danger of appeasing dictators.

Yes, the “not asking for support” was a mistake on my part. But you’re ignoring the part where Ukraine has said they are not expecting an invasion or a war from Russia. Did you not see the link on the pervious page was the Ukraine straight-up accused US of spreading disinformation?

Ukraine leaders urge calm, say Russian invasion not imminent



I don’t know how you can see this and not think America maaaaaay just be escalating tensions. But of course, the Ukraine is wrong, and America knows best, just like always.

And you’re right, let’s just memory hole the Bush years and pretend that this time pro-war propagandists are telling the truth this time. I’m sure it will all work out. And the Iraq War is a just a microcosm of American interventionism and imperialism. It’s viewing any American-invoked conflict through that lens. And it’s been a pretty consistently proven world-view since the Cold War.

 

[Holy Slapper]

I have a co-worker from Ukraine. I asked him about if he thinks there will be war. With his limited English, he said: "Maybe. After the Olympics, maybe. Not before.". Russia will not risk getting banned from the Olympics.

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

“The main purpose of the rally was to destabilize the situation in Ukraine and create international resonance. Two people were detained, they were declared suspects, proceedings were opened, and the suspects’ connections with the Russian special services are being investigated.”

Importantly, the protest participants were supposed to appear to be Ukrainian nationalists. The banners and leaflets of the protesters included the words “Offensive on Crimea and occupied Donbas” and “War until victory,” Klymenko said. As the recent Russian troop-building has been accompanied by Russian state media spreading disinformation on a planned Ukrainian attack on Donbas, the disrupted riots may be viewed as a pretext for Russia to start new aggressive action against Ukraine.

 

[Fosterson]

Yes, the “not asking for support” was a mistake on my part. But you’re ignoring the part where Ukraine has said they are not expecting an invasion or a war from Russia. Did you not see the link on the pervious page was the Ukraine straight-up accused US of spreading disinformation?

And as I already noted in my response to Darth, that likely reflects the desire of the Ukrainian government to keep their population calm and avoid mass panic. Their eager acceptance of Western arms and desire to join NATO do however indicate that they do view the threat from Russia as real.

I don’t know how you can see this and not think America maaaaaay just be escalating tensions. But of course, the Ukraine is wrong, and America knows best, just like always.

It's *Ukraine*, not "the Ukraine". Unless you call France "the France".

And you’re right, let’s just memory hole the Bush years and pretend that this time pro-war propagandists are telling the truth this time. I’m sure it will all work out. And the Iraq War is a just a microcosm of American interventionism and imperialism. It’s viewing any American-invoked conflict through that lens. And it’s been a pretty consistently proven world-view since the Cold War.

I'm not saying we should memory-hole the Bush years. I'm saying that its lazy and reductive to view all world's events through the prism of a single (albeit devastating) conflict. And its hard to argue that the conflict between Russia and Ukraine was started by the US. Russia started it by annexing Crimea and then sending forces into the Donbass to start an anti-government insurgency following the ousting of President Yanukovych in the Maidan Revolution. So unless you buy into the Russian government's narrative that the Euromaidan was a "CIA-sponsored coup", I fail to see how your argument here holds any water.

 

[OtherwiseKnownAs]

And as I already noted in my response to Darth, that likely reflects the desire of the Ukrainian government to keep their population calm and avoid mass panic. Their eager acceptance of Western arms and desire to join NATO do however indicate that they do view the threat from Russia as real.

So it’s you position that governments lie to protect their actual interests? But Biden is telling the truth about not wanting the escalate war? Interesting. And tell me why would it be desirable for the Ukraine to publicly call-out American propaganda?

It's *Ukraine*, not "the Ukraine". Unless you call France "the France".

I don’t care.

I'm not saying we should memory-hole the Bush years. I'm saying that its lazy and reductive to view all world's events through the prism of a single (albeit devastating) conflict. And its hard to argue that the conflict between Russia and Ukraine was started by the US. Russia started it by annexing Crimea and then sending forces into the Donbass to start an anti-government insurgency following the ousting of President Yanukovych in the Maidan Revolution. So unless you buy into the Russian government's narrative that the Euromaidan was a "CIA-sponsored coup", I fail to see how your argument here holds any water.

It’s hard to say that any conflict that America chooses to involve itself with is “started” by America. The Vietnamese conflict certainly wasn’t started by America.

The point here is that there are various corporate news sources, which act as a propaganda arm of the American government, that are clearly ready for war. And quite frankly, the idea of “CIA-sponsored” coups isn’t exactly as preposterous as you seem to think it is, considering America’s entire involvement with Latin America.

Why is American narratives more trust-worthy than Russian?

 

[Marvolo]

I have a co-worker from Ukraine. I asked him about if he thinks there will be war. With his limited English, he said: "Maybe. After the Olympics, maybe. Not before.". Russia will not risk getting banned from the Olympics.

They should have been banned for Crimea among other things.

 

[Holy Slapper]

They should have been banned for Crimea among other things.

They moved on that right after the 2014 winter Olympics.

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

The Daily Beast - Notorious Russian Mercenaries Pull Out of Africa for Ukraine

ABUJA, Nigeria—The infamous Wagner Group—run by one of President Putin’s closest associates—is pulling dozens of battle-hardened mercenaries out of Africa to send them to Eastern Europe where Russian forces are threatening Ukraine, The Daily Beast has learned.

According to two senior military officers in the Central African Republic (CAR) unprecedented numbers of Wagner mercenaries left the country for Eastern Europe in January and more are preparing to leave in the coming weeks.

“Usually when we hear that some have left we find out that they are just a handful—sometimes five or six people within a month,” an officer, who works at the military headquarters in the CAR capital, Bangui, told The Daily Beast. “It’s the first time we are hearing that dozens have departed in a month.”

One man who was recently detained by Wagner Group forces told The Daily Beast that he overheard CAR troops in the camp where he was being held describe a sudden exodus of mercenary fighters heading directly to Ukraine.

 

[chamber-music]

I think this is just Putin posturing to get the West to cave into his anti-NATO/EU demands. A war would be a disaster for Russia. Russia got away with annexing a couple neighbouring regions in Ukraine and Georgia but the world won't let them invade an entire country. There would be too many repercussions. All this stuff does is push Russia's western neighbours even further towards NATO.

 

[Marvolo]

I think this is just Putin posturing to get the West to cave into his anti-NATO/EU demands. A war would be a disaster for Russia. Russia got away with annexing a couple neighbouring regions in Ukraine and Georgia but the world won't let them invade an entire country. There would be too many repercussions. All this stuff does is push Russia's western neighbours even further towards NATO.

I suppose its possible he thought Biden wouldn't respond, and maybe he was dumb enough to think we wouldn't get involved after we so recently stumbled out of Afghanistan. More fool him. A proxy war between an underdog and a giant like Russia is like catnip for America. Plus, war can boost an economy and create new jobs which we need during and after covid.

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

 

[patam]

Why is American narratives more trust-worthy than Russian?

Exactly....And to be more precise, these are the media and government narratives which clearly have their own interests and power they want to hold on to and they don't really represent the views of all American people.

 

[patam]

I suppose its possible he thought Biden wouldn't respond, and maybe he was dumb enough to think we wouldn't get involved after we so recently stumbled out of Afghanistan. More fool him. A proxy war between an underdog and a giant like Russia is like catnip for America. Plus, war can boost an economy and create new jobs which we need during and after covid.

How so? I thought Biden was supposed to fix the bad economy and provide job opportunities by using his brain and his policies and now you're saying that the only chance to boost the economy and create new jobs is to get into a bloody war with Russia?