The Rise of Skywalker General Star Wars Episode IX News/Speculation Thread - Part 1

[Gothamsknight]

TLJ is probably the last time I'll ever love Star Wars. The discourse soured everything outside of the films, and then TROS soured them too. Not ruling out something new that catches me, but I've never connected with the spin-off material in all honesty. It's all degrees of 'fine' to me, peppered with moments of skin-crawling fan-service. Star Wars is just another Disney IP at this point, which was always the case I suppose, but there was hope at first that this would be different. Doesn't mean nothing good can happen, but there's no integrity to the story, so it'll happen by chance in the pursuit of money.

I think it's more that Star Wars fans really do want the familiar, despite what they say. And as long as that's the case, Star Wars will forever be attached to the past.

 

[Frodo]

For me, the OT is basically all I really need at the end of the day in terms of SW.
I grew up when those films were recent , so for me, while everything else is nice, the SW saga is those three films, with the prequels serving as prologs, and the ST, serving as Epilogs.

 

[Sian]

TLJ is probably the last time I'll ever love Star Wars. The discourse soured everything outside of the films, and then TROS soured them too. Not ruling out something new that catches me, but I've never connected with the spin-off material in all honesty. It's all degrees of 'fine' to me, peppered with moments of skin-crawling fan-service. Star Wars is just another Disney IP at this point, which was always the case I suppose, but there was hope at first that this would be different. Doesn't mean nothing good can happen, but there's no integrity to the story, so it'll happen by chance in the pursuit of money.

Same here.
When I first heard they were making a sequel, and that Han Solo was going to die, I DID NOT want to see it. In fact, I wanted to avoid it like the plague. But - believe it or not - I got curious about all the 'reylo controversy' and eventually got TFA on blu ray.
I was genuinely surprised how much I enjoyed it. Yes, it DID rip off ANH, but there was enough freshness in it to make me like it, and I thought the new characters were great. Most of all, much to my astonishment, I loved the Kylo Ren character, when I was fully prepared to hate him considering up until then Han was my favourite SW character!

Then came TLJ and it is possibly my favourite all time SW film. I enjoyed much about it - the growing bond between Rey and Kylo, the 'shades of grey' elements, the role animals played in it, the stunning visuals - but most of all the terrific performances of Driver and Hamill. I was genuinely saddened by the hate it got.

Then came TROS. I think I've said everything I have to say on this ...miserable excuse for an ending to the Skywalker saga. All I can say is like yourself, I've never been a fan of the spin offs. Don't get me wrong....I enjoyed Rogue 1 and The Mandalorian, and Solo was a darn sight better than TROS, and I respect other people's affection for them....but for me The Skywalker Saga IS SW. Without them the heart and soul of it has gone for me. Wherever they go in the future, I have zero interest in the further adventures of Rey Palpatine, and sadly John Boyega's behaviour on twitter has completely put me off his character.

I honestly would never have dreamed, in a million years, that they would end the Skywalker Saga like that

 

[BatLobster]

I feel what y'all are saying about how the fan discourse itself kind of ruined Star Wars. I feel the same. The thing is, while I have my disappointments with the sequel trilogy, I also don't HATE them the way some fans do (I just feel like life is too short, hate is just a toxic emotion and not worth it for something that has ultimately brought me more joy than not like Star Wars). So the idea that people would devote their entire online presence to hating it is just icky to me and a huge turnoff in general.

At the same time, I just accept that the fact that as long as there's going to be a LOT of Star Wars, there's going to be some good stuff, some bad stuff, and everything in between. I'll be there for the good stuff. It's comfort food for me at this point. I enjoy going to that galaxy. I also realize that if they release content at the rate they seem to be intent on doing, I may not be able to keep up with all of it. I still haven't watched The Bad Batch or Visions. I'll still prioritize watching all the live action stuff, unless it reaches that saturation point as well.

Ultimately, it's no longer a franchise that bears the creative identity of a single visionary. This has its pros and cons I guess. To me, ultimately it makes it less special. Because Star Wars was personal for George, and you had to respect his choices with hit whether you liked it or not. Cause it was coming from a real artistic place that spoke to who he is as a person. Which makes it feel more real and less like a corporate product IMO. But as long as there are people involved like Filoni who clearly do have a genuine passion for it and live and breathe telling stories in that universe, then at least that's something though.

 

[henzINNIT]

I still like TFA and TLJ quite a bit, as well as the OT of course. I still love the Star Wars I loved. But TROS really broke something in my brain. After an initial sugar rush, a second look was like seeing through the matrix, and what I saw was staggering desperation. I can't think of a film more tangibly concerned with placating its audience. After that, I can't shift perspective, and the coipous fan service in everything else is like nails on a chalk board now.

It all makes some kind of cosmic sense though. I like 5 Star Wars films, the five with V in the title. Is that how the force works?

 

[BatLobster]

I still like TFA and TLJ quite a bit, as well as the OT of course. I still love the Star Wars I loved. But TROS really broke something in my brain. After an initial sugar rush, a second look was like seeing through the matrix, and what I saw was staggering desperation. I can't think of a film more tangibly concerned with placating its audience. After that, I can't shift perspective, and the coipous fan service in everything else is like nails on a chalk board now.

It all makes some kind of cosmic sense though. I like 5 Star Wars films, the five with V in the title. Is that how the force works?

I have to say though, it's kind of weird to me to see Spider-Man: No Way Home get away with the most blatant fanservice I've ever seen in a movie with near unanimous praise, while something like Rise of Skywalker gets hammered for it.

Like...NWH has wayyyyy more fanservice. The movie grinds to a halt at times just so the characters can nerd out with you and swap stories about their continuities. People seem way more sensitive about it with Star Wars, maybe because it means so much to us and people react strongly when they feel like their emotions are being manipulated to some sort of twisted end.

My issues with TROS have little to do with fanservice and way more to do with pacing issues and a rushed plotline that doesn't earn the big things it's aiming to do. If anything, I don't think it had enough fanservice. Give me a grand ol' exposition dump from Palpatine with him chewing the scenery and telling us exactly how his master plan has unfolded perfectly. Dig into some of the Plagueis lore that was hinted at. Give me the Jedi Force Ghosts actually appearing in the finale to aid Rey. If you're gonna do the thing, do the thing. That's why I think No Way Home ultimately succeeded. It just fully committed to its uber fanservice-y concept, and people had fun with it. TROS landed in this in-between spot.

I also think No Way Home is far from a perfect film, but that's another story.

 

[henzINNIT]

I have to say though, it's kind of weird to me to see Spider-Man: No Way Home get away with the most blatant fanservice I've ever seen in a movie with near unanimous praise, while something like Rise of Skywalker gets hammered for it.

Like...NWH has wayyyyy more fanservice. The movie grinds to a halt at times just so the characters can nerd out with you and swap stories about their continuities. People seem way more sensitive about it with Star Wars, maybe because it means so much to us and people react strongly when they feel like their emotions are being manipulated to some sort of twisted end.

My issues with TROS have little to do with fanservice and way more to do with pacing issues and a rushed plotline that doesn't earn the big things it's aiming to do. If anything, I don't think it had enough fanservice. Give me a grand ol' exposition dump from Palpatine with him chewing the scenery and telling us exactly how his master plan has unfolded perfectly. Dig into some of the Plagueis lore that was hinted at. Give me the Jedi Force Ghosts actually appearing in the finale to aid Rey. If you're gonna do the thing, do the thing. That's why I think No Way Home ultimately succeeded. It just fully committed to its uber fanservice-y concept, and people had fun with it. TROS landed in this in-between spot.

I also think No Way Home is far from a perfect film, but that's another story.

No Way Home is an interesting thing to behold, and to contrast with episode 9. I'd agree that it is pure fan service for the bulk of its run and I'm not particularly fond of it either. I think in general Marvel handle fan service better than Star Wars does though. They successfully launched several different titles which gives them a much broader pool to reference, more natural ties to exploit, and built-in hype for cross-over events. Also Marvel have been very ambitious with its crowd-pleasing moments. Getting everyone they did for No Way Home was a big swing, as was assembling the Avengers, and even showing Fury all the way back in film one.

Star Wars by contrast has been run very differently. Disney got the rights but not the story-teller. I think Kathleen Kennedy has been unfairly villainised by fans but there's clearly something wrong with the decision-making somewhere; a clear made-by-commitee feel that at once struggles to reign in weaknesses but constantly stifles creatives as well. Whoever is in charge believes the OT is the bread and butter of this IP and not the incredible potential of the whole story. And so, we got a sequel trilogy that got lost trying to emulate the OT, and a seemingly endless barrage of spin-off content to be bolted onto the OT directly. Disney Star Wars feels parasitic to me. There's no imagination. I think they're afraid of doing anything new.

To be clear though, I don't think fan service killed TROS. When I say 'placating its audience' in regards to this film I'm not talking about references or cameos, I'm talking major story-telling decisions. I think it reeks of cowardice, like the film was made to deal with TLJ rather than follow it. That violated the integrity of the story more than any amount of bad films could, and gave me this cynical outlook on everything since.

 

[BatLobster]

I hear you. I think that's why I wanted to see TROS lean even more heavily into the things it was doing. Make me feel convinced that this is the story you're passionate about telling vs. just trying to half-heartedly please people, ya know?

At the same time, I really think the issues of the ST are largely based around JJ Abrams brand of storytelling more than anything and the fact that perhaps he and Rian Johnson had too much of a gap to bridge in how they viewed the story, especially if it wasn't a proper collaboration. That doesn't really impact how I view Lucasfilm as a whole right now, which is another story. I think Bob Iger and JJ had a lot of impact on the overall trajectory of the ST because of his input on TFA and pushing Lucas out, plus the tight release window he demanded.

The issue with Star Wars right now is they seem to be in the "throw everything at the wall and see what sticks" phase of things. A lot of the projects they've announced do interest me, like The Acolyte sounds like it could be really cool and different. It's just hard to get too excited for anything because things get cancelled at the drop of a hat.

 

[henzINNIT]

Yeah agreed all round there. 'The Acolyte' is the one thing on the slate that I am curious about, but it is very hard to take anything for granted.

 

[Gothamsknight]

People tend to forget there was no story plan of where to go after TFA. Everybody always says "TLJ ruined the ST plans" when it didn't. There was no plan, which is the fundamental issue, and I say that as someone who enjoys the nostalgia of TFA and heavy themes of TLJ. We're living in a time where Star Wars is being approached as a "nostalgic brand" instead of a vast universe. It's why you always see people online saying "it's like when I played with my Star Wars figures as a kid!". There has to come a point where you have to show why Star Wars justifies it's existence in the present day aside from it reminding you of when you were young. the OT are 3 iconic, classic films that redefined cinema as a whole. But what is Star Wars supposed to be today?

The Mandalorian and The Book of Boba Fett, so far, have been fantastic, btw. I think it's the best stuff Disney has done with the brand. I'm also starting to think Rogue One is quite possibly the best of the Disney era films, but I'm not 100%.

 

[henzINNIT]

I'd love to know exactly what was going on behind the scenes. There must have been some idea at some point. Trevorrow's ep.9 follows through on TLJ in ways that the final version didn't, and that had drafts a year before TLJ came out. It seems like they had some idea of the trajectory for a time at least, and then between TLJ's reception and dropping Trevorrow things changed.

I reckon Kylo was a big factor. He had the most radical changes between drafts. JJ talked about doing an 'inverse Vader' with Kylo while promoting TFA. I think the original 'plan' for him at least was to become more wrecked and irredeemable to subvert the trope.

 

[BatLobster]

I know a lot of people hate it, but after seeing The Matrix Resurrections, it just makes me all the more frustrated with TFA. Because for as weird and meta as that film was, it still fundamentally did a better job of continuing the story IMO without crapping on the accomplishments of the trilogy. We actually get to see how the events of the trilogy changed that world in meaningful ways.

I like TLJ quite a bit, but the more I reflect on it, the more I wonder whether deconstructing Luke Skywalker to that degree was the overall best thing for the franchise. I admire that Johnson had the guts to do it, and I think it made sense to go there after what was setup in TFA but...

...I can't help but wonder, what if TFA had just been handled differently? What if we got to actually see the New Republic and there were Jedi again in some capacity? What if it wasn't a reptition of Rebellion vs Empire and we had something more fresh as the central conflict? What if Luke wasn't a total failure? Would that have been so bad? Did they really need to reset everything completely? I don't know. I do really enjoy Luke's arc in TLJ. But I still look at TFA and wonder, what if we just had a totally different starting point for Luke? Where could the story have gone from there? I don't even know if Johnson would've taken Luke in the same direction if he had made Episode VII.

I'd love to know exactly what was going on behind the scenes. There must have been some idea at some point. Trevorrow's ep.9 follows through on TLJ in ways that the final version didn't, and that had drafts a year before TLJ came out. It seems like they had some idea of the trajectory for a time at least, and then between TLJ's reception and dropping Trevorrow things changed.

I reckon Kylo was a big factor. He had the most radical changes between drafts. JJ talked about doing an 'inverse Vader' with Kylo while promoting TFA. I think the original 'plan' for him at least was to become more wrecked and irredeemable to subvert the trope.

I do think Carrie Fisher's death had a lot to do with the changes in Episode IX. I think that alone struck a significant blow to Trevorrow's script. My guess is that was a bigger factor in Trevorrow exiting than any sort of reaction to TLJ's reception tbh, because JJ was already on board and developing the story with Terrio before TLJ came out.

Whatever original plan there may have been for Kylo, I think TLJ also left them in a difficult place where Rey is NOT a Skywalker. So Kylo is the last, and if you don't redeem the last of the Skywalker line...it's a pretty dark ending for the Skywalker saga. I don't think that would've sat well with me.

 

[AlteranOne]

I know a lot of people hate it, but after seeing The Matrix Resurrections, it just makes me all the more frustrated with TFA. Because for as weird and meta as that film was, it still fundamentally did a better job of continuing the story IMO without crapping on the accomplishments of the trilogy. We actually get to see how the events of the trilogy changed that world in meaningful ways.

I like TLJ quite a bit, but the more I reflect on it, the more I wonder whether deconstructing Luke Skywalker to that degree was the overall best thing for the franchise. I admire that Johnson had the guts to do it, and I think it made sense to go there after what was setup in TFA but...

...I can't help but wonder, what if TFA had just been handled differently? What if we got to actually see the New Republic and there were Jedi again in some capacity? What if it wasn't a reptition of Rebellion vs Empire and we had something more fresh as the central conflict? What if Luke wasn't a total failure? Would that have been so bad? Did they really need to reset everything completely? I don't know. I do really enjoy Luke's arc in TLJ. But I still look at TFA and wonder, what if we just had a totally different starting point for Luke? Where could the story have gone from there? I don't even know if Johnson would've taken Luke in the same direction if he had made Episode VII.



I do think Carrie Fisher's death had a lot to do with the changes in Episode IX. I think that alone struck a significant blow to Trevorrow's script. My guess is that was a bigger factor in Trevorrow exiting than any sort of reaction to TLJ's reception tbh, because JJ was already on board and developing the story with Terrio before TLJ came out.

Whatever original plan there may have been for Kylo, I think TLJ also left them in a difficult place where Rey is NOT a Skywalker. So Kylo is the last, and if you don't redeem the last of the Skywalker line...it's a pretty dark ending for the Skywalker saga. I don't think that would've sat well with me.

What we got was far worse with them ending the Skywalker line

Rey aint no Skywalker & will never be one. No matter how much Kathleen Kennedy screams it

& we also know that Trevorrow wanted Luke alive & Johnson did not have it. This whole trilogy was a **** show from the beginning

 

[BatLobster]

What we got was far worse with them ending the Skywalker line

Rey aint no Skywalker & will never be one. No matter how much Kathleen Kennedy screams it

& we also know that Trevorrow wanted Luke alive & Johnson did not have it. This whole trilogy was a **** show from the beginning

Trevorrow was going to end it too, only without even redeeming it.

 

[AlteranOne]

Trevorrow was going to end it too, only without even redeeming it.

Yep it is one thing just making bad movies. But this trilogy they just winged it. Never seen anything like it. With no plan & none of the directors working together for the sake of the story. This has gotta be a first

 

[Brother Jack]

I'd love to know exactly what was going on behind the scenes. There must have been some idea at some point. Trevorrow's ep.9 follows through on TLJ in ways that the final version didn't, and that had drafts a year before TLJ came out. It seems like they had some idea of the trajectory for a time at least, and then between TLJ's reception and dropping Trevorrow things changed.

I don't think Disney would ever tell the warts and all story of the ST production, unfortunately. Long gone are the days of the Rinzler making of books or the comprehensive behind-the-scenes special features for the prequels. I hope it does happen eventually though. I think it would actually help the division within the fanbase and the animosity from some circles against Disney, Lucasfilm, and Kathleen Kennedy.

I know a lot of people hate it, but after seeing The Matrix Resurrections, it just makes me all the more frustrated with TFA. Because for as weird and meta as that film was, it still fundamentally did a better job of continuing the story IMO without crapping on the accomplishments of the trilogy. We actually get to see how the events of the trilogy changed that world in meaningful ways.

I have mixed feelings about Resurrections, but I did really admire how it directly addressed the ways that it seemingly undid the ending of the trilogy, with Neo explicitly stating (almost to the audience itself) that it felt like nothing had changed, but then being reassured that that previous resolution wasn't for nothing and things had changed for the better. TFA never took the time to do that and the entire ST suffered for it.

 

[henzINNIT]

I do think Carrie Fisher's death had a lot to do with the changes in Episode IX. I think that alone struck a significant blow to Trevorrow's script. My guess is that was a bigger factor in Trevorrow exiting than any sort of reaction to TLJ's reception tbh, because JJ was already on board and developing the story with Terrio before TLJ came out.

Whatever original plan there may have been for Kylo, I think TLJ also left them in a difficult place where Rey is NOT a Skywalker. So Kylo is the last, and if you don't redeem the last of the Skywalker line...it's a pretty dark ending for the Skywalker saga. I don't think that would've sat well with me.

Yeah, losing Carrie Fisher must have been pretty significant, even with the diminished role she was playing in the trilogy. With her gone, that entire generation is wiped off the board, with only Kylo left in the family.

I can't fault TROS for how it handled Leia. It sounded like a good idea on paper. Looking back, perhaps it was an opportunity to focus on the new characters though.

I don't think Disney would ever tell the warts and all story of the ST production, unfortunately. Long gone are the days of the Rinzler making of books or the comprehensive behind-the-scenes special features for the prequels. I hope it does happen eventually though. I think it would actually help the division within the fanbase and the animosity from some circles against Disney, Lucasfilm, and Kathleen Kennedy.

Yeah it looks like an impossibility at this point. Perhaps many years down the line when everyone has moved on and someone can gossip with less career risk. The irony to me is that Disney have to allow everyone to believe there was no plan at all, because they'll never admit to changing their minds or struggling with episode 9.

I miss those old prequel documentaries. They were still edited and biased to some level, but you did feel like you got a more honest look at the production. And Star Wars productions are always interesting. The behind the scenes of TROS was lame.

 

[BatLobster]

I still think it would be utterly fascinating to see JJ and Rian Johnson have an open, brutally honest conversation with each other about the sequel trilogy. I would pay to watch that on PPV.

I have mixed feelings about Resurrections, but I did really admire how it directly addressed the ways that it seemingly undid the ending of the trilogy, with Neo explicitly stating (almost to the audience itself) that it felt like nothing had changed, but then being reassured that that previous resolution wasn't for nothing and things had changed for the better. TFA never took the time to do that and the entire ST suffered for it.

Yup...

And the crazy thing to me is The Matrix Trilogy as a whole was never held in the same regard as the Star Wars OT. It's hard to believe that they didn't take more care to not simply undo the most beloved movie trilogy of all time. Maybe they thought it was more true to life to show how good things don't last forever, which isn't invalid but...the trouble is, you're undoing a satisfying ending to near-universally beloved films and then replacing that ending with something that feels undercooked.

 

[henzINNIT]

I still think it would be utterly fascinating to see JJ and Rian Johnson have an open, brutally honest conversation with each other about the sequel trilogy. I would pay to watch that on PPV.

That would indeed be awesome haha. Maybe with George Lucas asking the questions.

 

[BatLobster]

That would indeed be awesome haha. Maybe with George Lucas asking the questions.

I so need this in my life. I think it would be therapeutic for the world.

 

[Frodo]

I have to say though, it's kind of weird to me to see Spider-Man: No Way Home get away with the most blatant fanservice I've ever seen in a movie with near unanimous praise, while something like Rise of Skywalker gets hammered for it.

Like...NWH has wayyyyy more fanservice. The movie grinds to a halt at times just so the characters can nerd out with you and swap stories about their continuities. People seem way more sensitive about it with Star Wars, maybe because it means so much to us and people react strongly when they feel like their emotions are being manipulated to some sort of twisted end.

My issues with TROS have little to do with fanservice and way more to do with pacing issues and a rushed plotline that doesn't earn the big things it's aiming to do. If anything, I don't think it had enough fanservice. Give me a grand ol' exposition dump from Palpatine with him chewing the scenery and telling us exactly how his master plan has unfolded perfectly. Dig into some of the Plagueis lore that was hinted at. Give me the Jedi Force Ghosts actually appearing in the finale to aid Rey. If you're gonna do the thing, do the thing. That's why I think No Way Home ultimately succeeded. It just fully committed to its uber fanservice-y concept, and people had fun with it. TROS landed in this in-between spot.

I also think No Way Home is far from a perfect film, but that's another story.

NWH and TROS are apples and oranges really in many ways.

Both films utilize fan service to the nth degree for certain, but the two films are released in very different contexts and have very different franchise histories.

In NWH case, there been multiple iterations , for good or ill, of the Spiderman film franchise over 20 years, and NWH brought those different versions together for the first time.

Filmgoers, fans , and critics could go into the film with their own favorite version of the Spiderman film canon being represented in the film, and to see them interact together for the first time.
So, with NWH, there's a shared sense of "community" ,for lack of a better term, among Spiderman fans having a shared experience and celebration of all the different versions.

Stars Wars is quite different

There's only ever really been one version of Star Wars for 50 years, which is part of it's issue when it comes to different generations being sensitive about making dramatic turns in the mythology or doing anything that " doesn't feel like Star Wars".

If Star Wars, like many other properties, had been redone and rebooted multiple times over 40 odd years, with different versions of Luke, Han, Leia, Vader etc, the franchise could get away with taking alot more big and bold swings and taking different spins on myths and characters.

You'd always have people who weren't satisfied, of course, but, the franchise would be more flexible creatively speaking.

When there's only one vision of a property , it becomes harder for alot of people to accept a different interpretation or spin on that one vision.

At the same time, the divides run deep within the Star Wars fandom with either side proclaiming .

So , going into TROS, there wasn't the same shared sense of community in SW fandom as there was with Spiderman fans into SMNWH. Fans went into TROS polarized and bitter at each other, and left TROS polarized and bitter at each other

Now, I don't think TROS is anywhere near the league of SMNWH, even for all of SMNWH's flaws, but I would agree that both rely heavily on fan service.

To me, the fan service angle is pretty much where the similarities end with those two films.

 

[BatLobster]

NWH and TROS are apples and oranges really in many ways.

Both films utilize fan service to the nth degree for certain, but the two films are released in very different contexts and have very different franchise histories.

In NWH case, there been multiple iterations , for good or ill, of the Spiderman film franchise over 20 years, and NWH brought those different versions together for the first time.

Filmgoers, fans , and critics could go into the film with their own favorite version of the Spiderman film canon being represented in the film, and to see them interact together for the first time.
So, with NWH, there's a shared sense of "community" ,for lack of a better term, among Spiderman fans having a shared experience and celebration of all the different versions.

Stars Wars is quite different

There's only ever really been one version of Star Wars for 50 years, which is part of it's issue when it comes to different generations being sensitive about making dramatic turns in the mythology or doing anything that " doesn't feel like Star Wars".

If Star Wars, like many other properties, had been redone and rebooted multiple times over 40 odd years, with different versions of Luke, Han, Leia, Vader etc, the franchise could get away with taking alot more big and bold swings and taking different spins on myths and characters.

You'd always have people who weren't satisfied, of course, but, the franchise would be more flexible creatively speaking.

When there's only one vision of a property , it becomes harder for alot of people to accept a different interpretation or spin on that one vision.

At the same time, the divides run deep within the Star Wars fandom with either side proclaiming .

So , going into TROS, there wasn't the same shared sense of community in SW fandom as there was with Spiderman fans into SMNWH. Fans went into TROS polarized and bitter at each other, and left TROS polarized and bitter at each other

Now, I don't think TROS is anywhere near the league of SMNWH, even for all of SMNWH's flaws, but I would agree that both rely heavily on fan service.

To me, the fan service angle is pretty much where the similarities end with those two films.

Oh yeah, I know it's two different situations, but I just think "fan service" gets thrown at TROS as a go-to, easy way to take it down when I think its problems are more complex than that and have to do with execution.

I liked No Way Home don't get me wrong, but I just can't help but a notice a bit of a double standard where fan service and nostalgia somehow becomes dirty words when critics are talking about movies like TROS and Ghostbusters: Afterlife (the latter of which I really enjoyed), but then it's all fine and dandy when a movie like Spider-Man: No Way Home leans all the way in on it. I'm talking more about the critical response as opposed to the fan reactions in this case.

 

[Frodo]

Oh yeah, I know it's two different situations, but I just think "fan service" gets thrown at TROS as a go-to, easy way to take it down when I think its problems are more complex than that and have to do with execution.

I liked No Way Home don't get me wrong, but I just can't help but a notice a bit of a double standard where fan service and nostalgia somehow becomes dirty words when critics are talking about movies like TROS and Ghostbusters: Afterlife (the latter of which I really enjoyed), but then it's all fine and dandy when a movie like Spider-Man: No Way Home leans all the way in on it. I'm talking more about the critical response as opposed to the fan reactions in this case.

Well, that I could see, since "fan service" is a critique thrown around as criticism often, though, to be fair, the same "fan service" critique has also been thrown around for SMNWH as well.

SMNWH hasn't been immune from that criticism, even from critics who gave the film positive reviews.

Though, I would concede that "the fan service" label in the NWH reviews have been framed in a positive and negative lights depending on the given critic.

The difference between SMNWH and TROS is that the critics as a whole seem to like SMNWH much more than TROS overall, so while "fan service" has been used noted in both films as a potential negative, TROS gets dinged for it much more since TROS has several issues which sink the film for critics, as opposed to SMNWH, which may only have a couple of issues which aren't big enough for critics to pile on it .

So , in that sense, the "fan service" critique in TROS cast may serve as more of an anchor on the film since it's already viewed in a negative light for its execution, it's plot, it's characterization, etc.

Then again film criticism is subjective , and there really isn't a single standard that all critics agree to or are consistent in using .

What one critic finds good in one film, may not like it in another film.

 

[Sian]

Haven't seen NWH, so I can't comment on it.
But, regarding TROS...I think it isn't so much a fan service, as a service to those who hated TLJ.
A youtube viewer described the way TROS retconned so much of Johnson's film as 'almost vengeful'...is a very good way of putting it.
Personally I think that TROS suffered from a lot of things. Abrams himself said post TFA he didn't have any idea where the story was going and left it to whoever took over from him to continue it - then with TROS he promptly undid most of Johnson's work in a way that seemed to contradict this - 'I don't like where you went after MY film and I'm going to correct that - and was frankly rather petty and childish.
Abrams wasn't a fan of the Skywalkers. In TFA he erased the sight of Anakin's pennant hanging in the courtyard of Maz's palace because he 'wanted to focus on the new characters.' Yet Rey turned out to be nothing but Abrams' Luke insert, but without the qualities that made him so interesting and relatable.
Abrams indulged his cast, not once but several times. Apparently Ridley was upset that she didn't get to work with Boyega more in TLJ, so they were practically together for most of the film. Isaac wanted his character to live in TFA...so Poe went from being a bit part character to a major lead.

Then we got Terrio who was a HUGE Luke/Leia 'shipper' as a kid, and stated he wanted to make the film his 8 year old self would have loved.

Therefore this is what we got:
The film Oscar Isaac, Daisy Ridley, John Boyega, JJ Abrams and Chris Terrio wanted to see. Unfortunately, they forgot they were making a film for a general audience and not themselves!

 

[BatLobster]

The film Oscar Isaac, Daisy Ridley, John Boyega, JJ Abrams and Chris Terrio wanted to see. Unfortunately, they forgot they were making a film for a general audience and not themselves!

To be honest, given how split people were after TLJ I don't know how you could even approach if from that mindset. I think all you can do as a filmmaker is make the film that you want to see yourself and hope other people like it too.

As a side note, I'm actually doing a Sequel Trilogy rewatch with my wife. First time in a while. Gotten through 7 and 8 so far.

My thoughts so far:

TFA: It's a solid movie. Looks great in 4k. My least favorite part of it will always be wiping out the New Republic before we even get a hint of what it is, how it's different than the previous one, etc. It just feels lazy and I think it feels a bit insulting to the audience to call it "First Order" and "Resistance" when for all intents and purposes it's just recreating the Empire/Rebellion dynamic. The frenetic pacing of some of it isn't for me. I like my Star Wars a bit slower, but it does the job of feeling like an exciting entry that newcomers to the franchise can enjoy. I still maintain that from a narrative standpoint, this wasn't necessary and I would've preferred to just hit the ground running with at true Episode VII and not a quasi-reboot. But as a realist, there was no way Disney was ever going to let that happen, especially after the prequels' reception.

TLJ: It's funny, sometimes I feel like when I think about this movie I start to get a little frustrated with the flaws, but when I watch it I just find myself thinking "yeah no, this is still really good Star Wars." It's a bit long, some humor doesn't work IMO, Canto Bight is a bit eh (though the escape sequence has grown on me) but...I still maintain that everything with Luke, Rey and Kylo is gold. Everything from the throne room through the ending is a banger. I still maintain this one will age well. I don't agree with people who say it's better than Empire, I don't think they do the discourse any favors either. Empire is as close as you can get to a perfect movie IMO. TLJ doesn't succeed with everything it's going for, but it IS very good and when it soars it REALLY soars.

We'll see how TROS fares...lol. I'm going to try to be open and honest about how I feel about it like I was with the others.

Also I will just say on the subject of No Way Home and Marvel movies, one thing I have to say is from a visual/cinematography standpoint, every film in the sequel trilogy blows MCU out of the water. They feel like real movies, the film look adds a nice classic touch, they have color, and the consistent use of locations and sets prevents it from ever feeling too green-screen-ish. And John Williams still brought his A-game for all three films IMO. So even ignoring the story, they're still a delight to take in on my 4k/surround setup. For any issues that I have with the story of the ST, these movies are great on a technical level. I just feel like that deserves to be pointed out, because it's not a given. There are some shots in No Way Home that look like absolute crud.