BvS Knightmare Scene/Cameo Spoiler

[chintai80]

the knightmare and flash cameo was one of my favorite parts of the film.
but it's because its just total fan service and if you know the dc universe then it would wet your appetite for what's to come.

i liked seeing the darkseid tease, the parademons, and seeing flash show up with a mysterious message.

it was the one part of the movie i ate up and enjoyed.

 

[LamboMan]

^^ Totally agree. Almost jumped out my seat when it happened! Loved the Knightmare scene and seeing the Flash talk to Bruce was indescribably awesome!

Maybe my favorite scene in the movie since it was so unexpected and fan servicy.

 

[gdw]

Anyone have any ideas as to what The Flash meant when he said, "Am I too soon? I'm too soon!"

Well, Bruce's opinion of Superman (at that point) is that Superman is evil, so Flash's message is misinterpreted? I'm not sure what he could be alluding to though as I haven't read many JL comics. Really looking forward to seeing more of Miller's Flash.

Exactly. Well, except for Bruce thinking Superman is evil. It's not that he IS evil, it's the potential threat Superman is, and brings with him. Not just Superman himself, but the way the world is reacting to him, like with Scoot's character.
It's meant to be misinterpreted by Bruce (and the audience) to be referring to the titular conflict, and the events of this film, but clearly Barry is referring to something else, and that's the purpose of the "too soon" part.
To be honest, I didn't even hear him say the "too soon" part when I saw the film.

He COULD still be referring to Superman, especially if he's coming from the same future Batman is seeing in the Knightmare, which would go hand in hand with the collapsing realities/memories interpretation/theory.

The 'Lois is the key' thing certainly hints at an Injustice type future we could be in store for.
That could be interesting, and surprising, if they do it.

Given the popularity of the game, I could see them doing it, but it would REALLY piss off those still waiting, and hoping, for the Superman that shows the world the light.

I'm fairly positive we will see Darkseid trying to control Superman, and that playing a HUGE part in the Darkseid story in the JL films, and possibly even getting hints of what could happen if he does; however I don't know if that will be more alternate/possible futures, or an actual reality come to pass.

 

[gdw]

It's not insulting if someone is confused by something confusing.

My niece who I'd say is pretty GA, was confused. She initially thought the parademons were a manifestation of Batman's paranoia, that they were monstrous bats that had 'turned against him'. But she also said that they didn't really look like bats so were they generic monsters or were they supposed to mean something?

So she was confused. And the movie did nothing to lessen that confusion.

Except that's not really "confusion" the way it's being used in criticism of the scene, as that is EXACTLY how the general audience is MEANT to (mis)interpret that scene. The same way Bruce does.

Interpreting (and yes questioning) the scene exactly the way the film makers intended you to take is NOT indicative of a scene that was out of place, nonsensical, and THAT being the cause of ACTUAL confusion.

That's indicative of a scene doing exactly what it was intended to do.

Unless you mean the Flash scene. Which confused everyone in my party except me who'd read about it here on SHH. So that would be a big-arse fail.

Yes, the Flash part was DEFINITELY more confusing, and unfortunately added potential ACTUAL confusion to the immediately preceding Knightmare sequence.
But the actual Knightmare sequence is being taken by audiences precisely as it was meant to, and serves it's purpose.

It only seems to be fans interpreting that as "confusing" general audiences, and critics who are taking legit criticisms, and running far beyond their actuality in the their reviews, and clouding the entirety of their viewing of the film.

Kinda like those who thought that the world thought Superman was the one shooting the people who died in the Africa event, or thought that the world thought Superman blew up the court house, or the insane person who thought Diana was Bruce's love interest, and 13 years younger than him, despite being shown to be, at minimum, well over 100 years old in the film.

THESE criticisms and "confusions" only stand up if you don't, you know, watch the movie.

 

[Donner]

Looks like a lot of people are forgetting that the GA doesn't investigate, pick apart, discuss and basically go through the movie scene by scene like we do on these forums.

It doesn't make the movie better that you need multiple threads on a superhero forum to make sense of it. People's gut reaction to the movie is what determines whether or not they like it.

 

[gdw]

Looks like a lot of people are forgetting that the GA doesn't investigate, pick apart, discuss and basically go through the movie scene by scene like we do on these forums.

It doesn't make the movie better that you need multiple threads on a superhero forum to make sense of it. People's gut reaction to the movie is what determines whether or not they like it.

Um, except you DON'T need the threads for the movie to make sense.

The ONLY thing I didn't catch when I saw it was the Flash's "too soon" comments.
I've still only seen it once, and that was the ONLY thing that I got from the forums that I did not get from a single viewing of the movie.

Everyone who has been confused, that I have heard/read from, has fallen into one of three categories:

1. They simply weren't paying attention, and missed every single time the movie answered their questions. This has been one of the most frustrating as it's been astounding how many people missed things that are explicitly stated in the film.

2. Too focused on their own assumptions and preconceptions to pay attention to what they were actually seeing.

3. People who wanted everything spelled out for then the moment it happens, and as a result simply don't bother to put 2 and 2 together themselves, or completely miss the explanation when it happens later.


As much as most of people's questions are explicitly answered in the film, the movie also doesn't have a problem NOT spelling things out to people. This movie does not treat the audience like an idiot, for the most part.

 

[Donner]

Um, except you DON'T need the threads for the movie to make sense.

The ONLY thing I didn't catch when I saw it was the Flash's "too soon" comments.
I've still only seen it once, and that was the ONLY thing that I got from the forums that I did not get from a single viewing of the movie.

Everyone who has been confused, that I have heard/read from, has fallen into one of three categories:

1. They simply weren't paying attention, and missed every single time the movie answered their questions. This has been one of the most frustrating as it's been astounding how many people missed things that are explicitly stated in the film.

2. Too focused on their own assumptions and preconceptions to pay attention to what they were actually seeing.

3. People who wanted everything spelled out for then the moment it happens, and as a result simply don't bother to put 2 and 2 together themselves, or completely miss the explanation when it happens later.


As much as most of people's questions are explicitly answered in the film, the movie also doesn't have a problem NOT spelling things out to people. This movie does not treat the audience like an idiot, for the most part.

You're talking about yourself. I'm talking about the general audience.

You're making a lot of assumptions about people from your little list there and it's horribly condescending. I went with my husband and family and no one liked the movie (except my husband liked the WW tribal music). They thought it was all over the place. It was a gut reaction and no amount of explaining or telling them "they just didn't get it" will change the reaction.

It doesn't matter if all of the information is in the movie, what matters is how the information was presented and obviously, it wasn't done well.

 

[Golgo-13]

Thanks to this being subtitled in some countries, here's the Flash's exact words:

"Bruce! Listen to me now!
It's Lois, Lois Lane! She's the key!
Am i too soon?! Ahh i'm too soon!
You were right about him! You've always been right!
Fear him! Find us Bruce! Find us now!"

 

[FunkMiller]

I have to confess, I loved The Flash cameo. It neatly suggested a much wider universe out there waiting to be discovered.

Tingles.

 

[Avenging Angel]

It was just placed there, I don't hate it but it did irk me because of all the previews they had for it.

 

[gdw]

You're talking about yourself. I'm talking about the general audience.

You're making a lot of assumptions about people from your little list there and it's horribly condescending. I went with my husband and family and no one liked the movie (except my husband liked the WW tribal music). They thought it was all over the place. It was a gut reaction and no amount of explaining or telling them "they just didn't get it" will change the reaction.

It doesn't matter if all of the information is in the movie, what matters is how the information was presented and obviously, it wasn't done well.

You know what, I'm being completely overly reactionary. You're right, thank you.

 

[JaD]

Just wanted to throw out how the Flash's suit in his message to Bruce reminded me of armor from Mass Effect. I hope we can get some talented artists to make some manips or an official image soon, that'd be cool.

 

[Rapunzel]

After two viewings...I think I have deciphered a few things about the knightmare/flash stuff. My latest theories:

1. I don't think the knightmare stuff is a dream or reality...I think it's a vision....from Darkseid or one of his minions. Notice, there's only waking before and after the flash warning, not before the knightmare. That seems key.

2. I think Flash breaking through from the future is what snaps Bruce out of the vision...those moments of "waking" are actually the effects of the temporal displacement, not a dream/vision ending.

3. Flash's warning mentions "him" which could be Supes, but Lex also mentions a "he" AFTER Supes is dead. I doubt there are two mystery threats, so I suspect flash and Lex are warning about the same threat. And that threat cannot be superman since it still exists after his death and was apparently alerted by Supes' death as well. The "too soon" is meant to demonstrate that Bruce won't understand the real future threat cause he thinks the future threat is Superman.

4. I think that both Lex and Bruce are being influenced by Darkseid to kill Supes because Darkseid wants Supes dead for some reason. So I think he's sent unseen (by us) visions to Lex, which is why Lex starts all this plot to destroy Supes/gain Kryptonian knowledge/create doomsday. But Martha's memory foils his plan to fully corrupt Bruce. And Lex, so confident and in control throughout the film, comes to realize (in that cut "communion" scene, just what he's done by helping kill Superman, which is what causes him to be scared and nutty at the end of the film.

 

[The Guard]

People keep saying the scene felt out of place, but it's supposed to be jarring. It blows Bruce Wayne's world wide open.

I still think The Flash might be

Spoiler

trapped in an OMAC, similar to the JUSTICE LEAGUE: MORTAL script.

And I really am starting to think Bruce's visions aren't just visions, but had something to do with

Spoiler

the Anti-Life equation. Someone messing with his mind through his dreams, getting in through his worst pain and fears and exploiting that to release his darker side.

It would make sense in a weird, sci-fi way.

Spoiler

Darkseid trying to destroy the Justice League before it ever exists

.

 

[GREEN =w= DAY]

Flash's words to Bruce in the vision - "Find us Bruce! Find us now!"

watching the movie the second time, i picked up what Flash said and it connects to what Bruce says to Diana at the end, "We have to find them."

 

[Babillygunn]

In the theater that I saw it in, the crowd was quiet after the scene, and then you heard one old man with a southern accent, two rows in front of me say "well what the hell was all that?"

Many people erupted in laughter. I'm guessing Snyder wasn't hoping for that reaction.

 

[Golgo-13]

Some dialogue between Diana and Bruce about his vision at the funeral, and the need to find the rest of the league, would have cleared this confusion up quite easily.

That and actually make the Flash look like 'The Flash'; easy fixes, that they chose to ignore.

 

[The Guard]

I think Bruce kept that under wraps on purpose.

They do directly refer to finding the others, and how the others will need to stand with them against the greater threat.

 

[Rapunzel]

When Supes returns, I'm betting Bruce mentions the knightmare to him. And the warning.

 

[Spider-Fan83]

two of my friends who I went to see it with (both pretty big fanboys/geeks in their own right) had no idea that it was suppose to be the Flash in that scene

one of them believed it was suppose to be a Robin flashback/ or something of that nature haunting his nightmares (I had to explain it to them)

so, I don't know how clear this was to the majority of the viewers

Some dialogue between Diana and Bruce about his vision at the funeral, and the need to find the rest of the league, would have cleared this confusion up quite easily.

That and actually make the Flash look like 'The Flash'; easy fixes, that they chose to ignore.

to be fair he had been suffering from nightmares for quite some time... I am not sure he even knew rather or not it was real... an probably dismissed it as a dream

so, I can see why he probably wouldn't have bought it up

 

[gdw]

The general audience sees it as Batman's paranoia or another one of his dreams. Then at the end they realize it's actually something weirder, that will probably be explained later.

They probably won't realize it's Flash at first, and they definitely don't know what the hell the Omega symbol or Parademons mean, but it's nothing they can't follow along with.

EXACTLY! Everything makes sense in the film in the end. You don't need to know exactly who the guy screaming at Bruce was. Bruce had no ****ing clue who it was either. People are just demanding everything is spoon fed to them the instant they have to think the slightest bit about something.

 

[gdw]

. . .

to be fair he had been suffering from nightmares for quite some time... I am not sure he even knew rather or not it was real... an probably dismissed it as a dream

so, I can see why he probably wouldn't have bought it up

Yes, exactly. Which is why Bruce takes the Knightmare to be just a nightmare, and it solidifies his resolve. In fact, Bruce doesn't even mention "destroying" Superman til AFTER he has that vision. We also don't see him carelessly killing criminals til after this point either. Of course we don't see him do much as Batman before this either.

However, come the end of the film, he's had his moment with Luthor in his cell, which would be the point at which Bruce starts to put his "vision" in a different context. Hence why he says what he says to Diana.
He probably would still have his doubts, especially considering Bruce's tendency towards rational explanations.

While he's definitely thinking there's more to it than he first thought, after what Luthor says, he's still basing this off a "dream" he had of an apocalyptic future, and a warning from a man reaching through a hold in space in his Bat-Cave.

How the hell was he supposed to explain that to Diana in a few lines of believable dialogue at a funeral?

 

[ClarklovesLois]

So the nightmare, Was Bruce responsible for Lois's death? or Did Bruce and Lois get together, You took her from me, She was my world..

 

[Rapunzel]

I'm convinced, after mulling it over, that the knightmare is a vision from Darkseid. He's maybe even given Lex a similar vision. It's all engineered to make Superman either dead or vulnerable to DS' influence...through preventing the JL.

The flash warning is about "him" which has to be the same "him" Lex mentions-- which is not Superman because he's dead at the point Lex makes his warning.

Thus the "he" is probably Darkseid.

 

[ClarklovesLois]

I'm convinced, after mulling it over, that the knightmare is a vision from Darkseid. He's maybe even given Lex a similar vision. It's all engineered to make Superman either dead or vulnerable to DS' influence...through preventing the JL.

The flash warning is about "him" which has to be the same "him" Lex mentions-- which is not Superman because he's dead at the point Lex makes his warning.

Thus the "he" is probably Darkseid.

Ok, thanks Rapunzel that makes sense