BvS Knightmare Scene/Cameo Spoiler

[DeadStroke]

I feel like this deserves its own thread.This is one of the very controversial scenes in the movie. Did it fit? Was it shoehorned? What was the purpose behind those scenes?

What are your thoughts on it? Here is an interesting theory.
DCEU Facts
‏@dceufacts
Spoilers: Amazing theory about the #BatmanvSuperman KNIGHTMARE and #Darkseid in the #DCEU! http://nonsensicalramblings.com/thi...-v-superman-the-theory-of-a-waking-knightmare …

March 25, 2016
Batman V Superman: The Theory of a Waking Knightmare
Nathan Lindsey Movies
*SPOILER WARNING*

If you’ve seen Batman v Superman this past weekend then, like me, you most likely had many more questions than answers about the future of the DC Universe. Ever since I saw the early showings Thursday night, something about the Knightmare Sequence was troubling me. I had to see it again, but now I’ve worked out all the flaws in my theory. HERE IS YOUR SECOND SPOILER WARNING.

Let me start off by addressing the criticism that this particular sequence has gotten. I’ve seen many reviews saying that this really felt out of place, and that the Flash’s reveal here seemed shoehorned. Now to the laymen, this might seem the case. Unfortunately, that became a reoccurring theme (that you needed a strong prior index of DC knowledge going in). But have no fear, this sequence was perfectly placed in the movie. Hear me out, and I think you might agree.

In the Knightmare sequence, we see a war-torn environment not too far off from the world we see in such nuclear apocalyptic games such as Fallout New Vegas or settings like the Book of Eli: basically a big desert waste land with deteriorating buildings from what one can only assume is the remainder of Gotham or Metropolis. Right off the bat (pun intended), we see the Omega Symbol. This little tidbit didn’t come as too much of a surprise, because the still image was released before the movie’s debut. However, it comes to play a very important role in this theory. Next we see Batman, who at this point has become a hardened killer (because really what’s the point of a no kill rule when everybody’s already dead) come up to inspect a semi-truck load with who can only be assumed to be the Sons of Batman, or at the least background characters meant to mirror them. There’s a box in the back of the truck which opens up to reveal a glowing green light and the audience thinks “oh okay, it’s kryptonite” right around the time you realize it was all a set up. Cue the Sons of Superman coming in fighting alongside Parademons from Apokolips (oh yes, that is definitely what they are). They basically murder the Sons of Batman and capture Batman. The next part of the sequence is Batman being chained up, Superman personally executing the remaining Sons of Batman, and then murdering the Bat himself.

Cue one of the most important scenes for the Justice League and the foundation of this theory. A rift opens up in time and space in front of him in the Batcave, waking Bruce from the dream (of sorts), and the Flash makes an appearance. “BRUCE!” he screams, halfway through the portal/halfway still in “LISTEN TO ME RIGHT NOW! IT’S LOIS! LOIS LANE! SHE’S THE KEY!”. Then his voice begins to falter. But still yelling he cries, “AM I TOO SOON? TOO SOON. YOU WERE RIGHT ABOUT HIM; YOU WERE ALWAYS RIGHT ABOUT HIM. FEAR HIM! FEAR HIM AND FIND US YOU HAVE TO FIND US BRUCE!”. Then with a loud crack as suddenly as he appeared, he vanishes into the portal, and Bruce wakes up at his desk for a second time.

Now the viewer is left stunned, not knowing how much of what Bruce just saw was real or a dream. I’m about to explain the theory, but there’s still some other parts of the movie that we need to briefly address. At one point during the Doomsday fight, WonderWoman said “I've killed things from other worlds before”. If you read into Thymescira, the Island of the Amazons, it’s no secret they know all about the Gods of New Genesis (suffice to say for now that this means she’s in the know about a certain someone this theory revolves around). At the end of the movie, Lex Luthor is trying to convey to Batman that something is in motion, and it is already too late for the world. He keeps talking about the announcement of Superman’s death, and how it has reached the other important beings in space now that there is no one left to protect Earth from whatever it is that’s coming. When Cyborg is revealed in this film we see a MotherBox form into his tech, bringing him alive. At this point you probably see where I’m going with this if you know about some iterations of the Justice Leagues formation, particularly in the Animated Films. But, here is the Knightmare Theory in full.

What we saw in Bruce’s Knightmare was NOT a dream sequence that symbolized his internal fear of what Superman will become if left unchecked; rather, Bruce Wayne himself mistakes the sequence for this at the time. What were actually occurring were Bruce’s memories from a parallel timeline collapsing in on themselves, similar to the seizures the Flash experiences in the story Flashpoint. The reason why Superman was fighting alongside Parademons, why we see an omega symbol burned into the earth, and why they showed us a MotherBox in cyborg's sequence was to foreshadow the coming of Darksied. Darksied, for those who don’t follow the comics, is a demi-God ruler of a hellish planet (and I mean that very literally) whose power level frequently goes well above Superman's. His ultimate goal is to control the universe. To accomplish this he seeks out planets with life and invades them with devices called MotherBoxes, technology that among other things allows intergalactic travel instantaneously. He terraforms and/or destroys the planet, steals its resources for himself, captures every living thing, and organically changes it on a molecular scale into monsters called Parademons. Parademons serve and die for him. Then he uses parademons to invade the next planet. He also gains followers who he does not turn into monsters by using an Anti-Life Equation; something that works with a similar property to a magic possession spell, that when exposed to forces you to serve Darksied. If that doesn’t give you an idea of how bad news this guy is, let me just say that the only time the Justice League in comics have ever actually defeated him (instead of just sending him back to where he came from), it ripped apart time and space while collapsing reality in an event called Final Crisis.

The coming of Darksied was actually what Bruce was seeing in the Knightmare sequence. The reason Superman was acting the way he was is because Darksied sees the Man of Steel as too strong of an asset to simply kill. Rather, he wants to use the Anti-Life equation to force Superman to work for him. This is what has happened in the Knightmare sequence. Superman has either by choice or by force been made to work for Darksied. When the Flash appears to Bruce, he is not warning Bruce about an out of control Superman; he is warning him about Darksied. He says Lois Lane is the key, which she hardly was in this movie, and that Bruce should “fear him”. One of the most critical pieces of evidence for this theory we receive is Flash asks if he’s “too soon”. He was. The death of Superman had not happened yet so Bruce would not understand the coming of Darksied. He mistakes it for Superman trying to rule earth. This is why at the end of the movie, Bruce explains to Diana (Wonderwoman) that he still wants to find the other Heroes, even if they’re not ready to be found. He states “has a feeling” that something else is still coming. Nice feeling Bruce, Flash screamed it at you.

Everything Lex Luthor says at the end of the movie correlates with this theory as well. Lex knows all too well about Darksied. This is why he was practically crying when he was talking to Batman about it. Lex had seen the data from the universe on the Kryptonion ship’s database, and had asked the computer to teach him about it. Lex goes on and on at the end about how news of the death of Superman had already been spread further than earth. He even says, “He’s hungry. He's coming. He's found us.” when he is warning Batman about what’s out there. Cyborg's scene showed that Motherboxes are already on earth and are operational. The symbolism of the painting in Lex Luthor’s home about the devils coming from the sky is not completely about Superman. It’s about Darksied’s invaders and lieutenants. When Lex realized he would not be able to control Doomsday, he had lost faith that humanity has any angels from the ground to fight for them.

So whenever I hear people criticizing the Knightmare sequence for seemingly being out of place, or the best one I’ve heard is it looks like an after credits scene, I agree with them. It’s like that on purpose. It’s why Flash was pointing out that he was too soon. The reason Bruce has his parallel memories collapse in on him at such a weird time is because of the Flash appearing to him at the wrong time. Flash was “too soon” and so were the memories. Fear not though Junior Justice Members, the Batman seems to be on the case by the end of the movie. Wonderwoman is right behind him which is good, because our favorite heroes are going to need all the help they can get for what’s coming.

I found this fascinating. The connections to Lex, Flash, Lois, Superman and Darskeid.

What are some of your theories?

 

[Golgo-13]

I only thing i disliked about this scene with that they showed so much of it in the marketing.

 

[Drizzle]

I only thing i disliked about this scene with that they showed so much of it in the marketing.

You could say that about any scene in the movie save for [BLACKOUT]Superman's death[/BLACKOUT] and the [BLACKOUT]Justice League cameos[/BLACKOUT].

 

[DeadStroke]

You could say that about any scene in the movie save for [BLACKOUT]Superman's death[/BLACKOUT] and the [BLACKOUT]Justice League cameos[/BLACKOUT].

As much as I loved the Comic Con trailer and other TV spots/trailers.

I sort of wish this film showed as little as possible like Civil War. The same could be said about Suicide Squad as well.

I still think BvS is awesome and SS will be as well. I just wish we saw less from DC marketing. Even if it upsets us at the time it would better serve us later. Imagine seeing that scene with no prior footage or seeing Doomsday for the first time?


As far as the topic I think I noticed the Joker card on the gun the 2nd time I saw it.

 

[OcStat]

This scene was pretty much the equivalent of the Cave Scene in AoU, except that was much more coherent. It adds context to the vision Thor had earlier, and yes does set up hints for the future like this scene does, but in AoU you already have a few pieces of the puzzle to work with.

When this scene rolls around it is totally out of left field. I didn't even realize that the new character that pops up out of nowhere was supposed to be the flash, he looked unrecognizable. But it is a neat cameo, and the write up in the OP is an interesting read. I didn't care for the near constant dream sequences though, far too many, and the dream within a dream for this bit was a poor choice.

 

[DeadStroke]

This scene was pretty much the equivalent of the Cave Scene in AoU, except that was much more coherent. It adds context to the vision Thor had earlier, and yes does set up hints for the future like this scene does, but in AoU you already have a few pieces of the puzzle to work with.

When this scene rolls around it is totally out of left field. I didn't even realize that the new character that pops up out of nowhere was supposed to be the flash, he looked unrecognizable. But it is a neat cameo, and the write up in the OP is an interesting read. I didn't care for the near constant dream sequences though, far too many, and the dream within a dream for this bit was a poor choice.

The Knightmare scene/spoiler was far better than what we saw In AOU.

 

[gdw]

I don't understand the criticism of the "dream" sequence(s). Especially the claim that there were too many.

There was ONE. The only other dream was the nightmare about his parents tomb.
I say three was only one of the sequence people are criticizing is because the parents one was a standard nightmare, nothing confusing, it's not a "vision".

So the only vision type sequence was the single Knightmare scene, and subsequent cameo.

How the hell is that too many?

Also, I loved how it is meant to be misinterpreted by by Bruce, and even the audience.

 

[DeadStroke]

http://www.comicbookresources.com/ar...man-connection

Quote:
Following Batman's hellish "knightmare" of a world overrun by Superman and his shock troops, a possibly-dreaming Bruce Wayne encounters a time-traveling Flash, who has run back in time to warn him of future events. "BvS" producer Deborah Snyder spoke to Collider about this development, saying that it was done to deliberately link to upcoming films.

“This was kind of the opposite [of 'Breaking Bad'] because we had the script and it wasn’t in the script," said Snyder, referring to "Breaking Bad's" penchant to take plot turns without knowing where they may lead. "As we started, then we worked on our script, I think we were in the middle of shooting and we started working on the outline for the next movie and where they go, and Zack said, ‘Oh my God let’s add this moment that is gonna pay off down the road, and we’ll find out more information.’” Flash is next expected to pop up in 2017's "Justice League" film, which will be directed by Zack Snyder and begins production in mid-April.

 

[DeadStroke]

I don't understand the criticism of the "dream" sequence(s). Especially the claim that there were too many.

There was ONE. The only other dream was the nightmare about his parents tomb.
I say three was only one of the sequence people are criticizing is because the parents one was a standard nightmare, nothing confusing, it's not a "vision".

So the only vision type sequence was the single Knightmare scene, and subsequent cameo.

How the hell is that too many?

Also, I loved how it is meant to be misinterpreted by by Bruce, and even the audience.

Well said.

 

[king666]

It's a really fun scene, but it should've been post-credit.

 

[Kobra]

I only thing i disliked about this scene with that they showed so much of it in the marketing.

Dude, they showed so much of everything in the trailers/tv spots. I knew pretty much everything before watching it. Even the Batman vs Superman fight is almost all in the trailers/tv spots. Trailers just showed way too much. Next time i won't be watching them, that's for sure.

 

[chintai80]

i liked this scene because it works as a vision of the possible future.

i don't think it was a dream at all and i think bruce sees this because of

Spoiler

flash messing with the timeline

, which will probably be developed and connect to a future film.

but i can see how the GA might be confused by the randomness of the scene.

 

[gdw]

It's a really fun scene, but it should've been post-credit.

Fundamentally disagree.

Post credit it would make absolutely zero sense.

Being in the film makes perfect sense as it comes across as a manifestation of Bruce's fears.

After credits it completely looses that context, AND becomes even more nonsensical after the film resolved the titular conflict, among other spoilery things.

Not to mention the fact that the vision, and Flash's warning, serve to cement Bruce's resolve.

Without them, his willingness to kill Superman makes even less sense, and comes across as even more reckless.

 

[BlackFox]

I think this may have been the scene/scenes that caused the most confusion for general movie goers (and possibly why reviews are the way they are). The was little context given or follow up to it. Die hard DC fans may have loved it and geeked out but I feel everyone else would have been left scratching their heads where and what was going on, especially having the two scenes back to back. I mean I didnt even know it was the Flash in the lightning vortex thingy until being told online after. The GA would not have had a clue who this is during the movie and would have just lost people in my opinion anyway.

I think they were in such a rush to get their universe up and running little things like this were forced in without enough thought put in.

 

[gdw]

People claiming this scene would be confusing to general audiences are just being really insulting.

Ignore the fact that it hints at Darkseid, the Parademons, etc, and see it the same way the general audience does, and the same way Bruce does; as a manifestation of his fear over Superman, and Bruce's idea of how horribly things can go if he doesn't act against the Superman.

It's not confusing in the least.

 

[BlackFox]

Well from the general viewers I have spoken to its the one scene I've heard them ask about and said that left them confused the most. I dont think its insulting I just dont think the film did a very good job of explaining what was happening. How were the audience expected to know who the Flash was in this seen and why he was their?

 

[Tvar10]

This scene confuses me. It came out of nowhere and didn't have much reason for happening. They should have put it after the courtroom scene. Gives batman and superman more motivation to fight

 

[JtheDreamer]

People claiming this scene would be confusing to general audiences are just being really insulting.

Ignore the fact that it hints at Darkseid, the Parademons, etc, and see it the same way the general audience does, and the same way Bruce does; as a manifestation of his fear over Superman, and Bruce's idea of how horribly things can go if he doesn't act against the Superman.

It's not confusing in the least.

The GA doesn't know of Darkseid, Parademons - hell they can't easily tell that's the Flash in the vortex, nor could they adequately hear what he was saying.

They think he's just having some wacked out dream and one that doesn't service the movie's plot.

 

[BatmanEVH]

As much as I loved the Comic Con trailer and other TV spots/trailers.

I sort of wish this film showed as little as possible like Civil War. The same could be said about Suicide Squad as well.

I still think BvS is awesome and SS will be as well. I just wish we saw less from DC marketing. Even if it upsets us at the time it would better serve us later. Imagine seeing that scene with no prior footage or seeing Doomsday for the first time?


As far as the topic I think I noticed the Joker card on the gun the 2nd time I saw it.

It's true, you can see it on the side of the Knightmare Batman package
(sorry, I could only find a picture from eBay)

 

[king666]

The GA doesn't know of Darkseid, Parademons - hell they can't easily tell that's the Flash in the vortex, nor could they adequately hear what he was saying.

They think he's just having some wacked out dream and one that doesn't service the movie's plot.

Yep.

 

[Golgo-13]

The GA doesn't know of Darkseid, Parademons - hell they can't easily tell that's the Flash in the vortex, nor could they adequately hear what he was saying.

They think he's just having some wacked out dream and one that doesn't service the movie's plot.

That's my gripe. It seems like they went out of their way to make it as confusing as possible. Making Flash look like Flash would have added a bit of clarity to that whole scene.

 

[Unbreakable Lex]

The GA doesn't know of Darkseid, Parademons - hell they can't easily tell that's the Flash in the vortex, nor could they adequately hear what he was saying.

They think he's just having some wacked out dream and one that doesn't service the movie's plot.

Less then 10 years ago, the general audience had no idea who Ironman was. BvS opened the door to the larger cosmos ever so slightly. The GA will understand it all in 20 more months.

SS & WW will play a role somehow to keep the question fresh. Justice League will answer questions while likely asking more.

 

[gdw]

The GA doesn't know of Darkseid, Parademons - hell they can't easily tell that's the Flash in the vortex, nor could they adequately hear what he was saying.

They think he's just having some wacked out dream and one that doesn't service the movie's plot.

The Flash concerns, absolutely. He's certainly not recognizable. That part would definitely be confusing. I get the impression that the Flash cameo is the part that confused anyone.
The Knightmare sequence itself, on its own, makes absolute perfect sense as a manifestation of Bruce's fears. Not confusing in the least, and absolutely serves the plot.

As I said before, without it, Bruce's hardened resolve to stay his course of action makes little to no sense.

You don't need to know anything about Darkseid, Parademons, etc, which was my point, and what I explicitly said.

They are only relevant to the future films, and that's also why they're not the focus of the scene. They are Easter eggs.
The main focus of the scene, in the context of BvS, is the manifestation of the threat Superman represents.

That was painfully obvious, and also the entire point of why Bruce interprets it as reaffirming his course of action against Superman.

Like I said, look at it and focus on the scene, tale your blinders off and stop focusing JUST on the Easter Eggs. You know, just like anyone else who watched the film and doesn't know about Darkseid et al.

 

[king666]

Ok, so Bruce had this weird nightmare where Superman has destroyed the whole world. It kinda makes sense: he's getting really paranoid about Superman. Ok, it's weird but I get it.

Then the Flash shows up and it makes absolutely no sense, imo. They never touch the subject again; that part of Bruce's dream is not relevant at all to the story. It never pays off and it's never explained... but the scene is there, in the movie, acting like it's relevant.

I feel the same way about the [BLACKOUT]JL scene[/BLACKOUT]. It's easter egg material, but they made a 4min scene out of it.

 

[JtheDreamer]

The Flash concerns, absolutely. He's certainly not recognizable. That part would definitely be confusing. I get the impression that the Flash cameo is the part that confused anyone.
The Knightmare sequence itself, on its own, makes absolute perfect sense as a manifestation of Bruce's fears. Not confusing in the least, and absolutely serves the plot.

As I said before, without it, Bruce's hardened resolve to stay his course of action makes little to no sense.

You don't need to know anything about Darkseid, Parademons, etc, which was my point, and what I explicitly said.

They are only relevant to the future films, and that's also why they're not the focus of the scene. They are Easter eggs.
The main focus of the scene, in the context of BvS, is the manifestation of the threat Superman represents.

That was painfully obvious, and also the entire point of why Bruce interprets it as reaffirming his course of action against Superman.

Like I said, look at it and focus on the scene, tale your blinders off and stop focusing JUST on the Easter Eggs. You know, just like anyone else who watched the film and doesn't know about Darkseid et al.

I have looked at it from GA's perspective. It would seem only knowledgable CBM fans and deep thinkers on these internet forums understand that sequence. Doesn't take much effort to look around outside of a place like this to see the confusion it generated with everyone else. The flash sequence was layered on top of it, so that's why most lump the two together.