Schumacher: "Kilmer Is the Best Batman"

[babbage]

He stopped the microwave emitter by having Gordon destroy the tracks. Ra's sealed his own fate by smashing the brakes. "My fate lies with the rest of Gotham". Either way Batman stopped the microwave emitter.

He stopped the Joker from blowing up the ferries. Joker said if one of the boats didn't press the button then he'd blow them both up. He was about to do just that when he realized they were not going to kill each other, when Batman stopped him. He also saved the hospital hostages from the SWAT team. He saved Gordon's son from Two Face.

A hero all around.

Meh, what use are facts when they get in the way of a good mindless fanboy bashing?

 

[SmellTheWeird]

Something i have wondered about that Alfred speech..doesn't it just come out of nowhere?

Not really ... no more "out of no where" than any other line of dialogue in movies. Movies show you essential scenes that make up the plot, with dialogue that reflects the themes of a film, or it's characters. It's supposed to give the audience insight. That's its job believe it or not.

Dialogue in Star Wars, or any other comic book or fantasy film is no believable way people talk. They are grand, and larger than life forms of dialogue. Reflective of the story. The only natural dialogue I have EVER heard on film is film about mundane, ordinary events. Not men who dress up like Bats, or super soldiers, etc.

Alfred's speech says "Perhaps", he's offering essential guidance. Which is the entire point of Alfred being a surrogate father to a young man. And it's well written, and well performed.

No more random than in Batman Forever, where a now oddly aged Riddler is laying down in pain, and for NO reason at all Batman explains that he isn't "Batman because he has to be, but now, because he chooses to be."

That isn't betaing you over the head with the theme of the film, but the poetic dialogue of the Nolan films bothers people?

Uhhh, ok. Selective memories if you ask me. Or Batman Returns issues with duality, the ever so subtle "Oh ... I mistook me for someone else." ~ Bruce Wayne.

At least in B89 it was more subtle. "Which one of these guys is Bruce Wayne?" ... "Well I'm not sure." I always see people complain about this scene, they say "what's the purpose if he introduces himself moments later" ... it's showing you Wayne is lost in his own skin, and has clear issues with duality. Yet it's EXTREMELY subtle.

SmellTheWeird saying that Batman Forever's diealog is preachy while defending The Dark Knight is really funny, I mean don't get me wrong I love TDK but I just lol'd.

Re-read. I said it was preachy, specifically Batman Begins dialogue, but it has to be. Too much narrative to cover, and it's developing grand morality and ideological underpinnings for a character that we're supposed to understand why the hell he dresses up as a bat at night and beats criminals to a bloody pulp. It's just more intelligent, better written, poetic, and better performaned than what I'm comparing it to.

I agree with just about everything you've been saying thus far but I don't think the finger print from the shell casing is any more or less realistic than cracking a vault code with a hearing aid. The difference is that Nolan just gives us things in a matter of fact way without cheese or camp like Schumacher.

Exactly, more plausible. Or verisimilitude, a "heightened reality"

The brain drain in Batman Forever in theory isn't any less realistic than say the microwave emitter in Begins

I slightly disagree, I believe a microwave emitter, a technology that uses cell phones to emit sonar waves, and a maching that can create earthquakes (all while being fantastical and sci-fi based) are inherently more believable than a cable box that sucks your thoughts and "brain waves"

 

[SmellTheWeird]

It's the equivalent of Batman killing Joker, so Joker couldn't kill more poeple.

Batman didn't kill Joker in B89. He said he wanted to kill him, punched him off a building, but he tried to keep him from escaping. Joker's death was his own doing.

You say BB wouldn't have been that good if Bruce let Ra's die the first time, well he did this second time.

It's ambiguous, but he washed his hands of the situation. Ra's Al Ghul is more than capable of saving himself. He helped train Batman for christ sakes. That doesn't constitute "killing" someone. That's not being an executioner. And executioner is strapping a bomb to someone, when you can find another way to take him down, and literally murder someone in COLD blood. It's an issue of INTENT.

Ra's said "my fate lies with the rest of Gotham" ... whose to say he'd let Batman save him. Just to mess with Bruce's wrinkled difference in his morality code v.s. crime. Why would Ra's give him the satisfaction? Bruce had the opportunity to murder him with a shruniken, Ra's wanted him to ... Batman said eff this, and dipped out.

It's different in TDK, Joker wants Batman to kill him. Batman throws him off a building, and therefore it would be his responsibility if he died. But he saves him, he's fighting an ideological war.

A hero all around.

Nolan's Batman is the most heroic character in all the films, bar none. He faces actual moral dilemmas, real threats, his ACTUALLY fails ... which makes his overcoming obstacles even MORE heroic. It makes for actual compelling stories, with character development.

The most heroic act, un Nolan Batman film related to me, was when Kilmer's Wayne shouted he is Batman at the circus to keep Two Face from killing the Graysons.

Nolan's Batman doesn't even reduce himself to only saving people when in costume.

He sacrifices himself, for the greater good. Sacrifices his own body. Lets a truck smash into his LAMBO just to keep a snot nosed accountant from releasing HIS identity to the public. Yet he's still a hero enough to stop him.

That's heroic.

 

[The Joker]

Nolan's Batman is the most heroic character in all the films, bar none. He faces actual moral dilemmas, real threats, his ACTUALLY fails ... which makes his overcoming obstacles even MORE heroic. It makes for actual compelling stories, with character development.

The most heroic act, un Nolan Batman film related to me, was when Kilmer's Wayne shouted he is Batman at the circus to keep Two Face from killing the Graysons.

Nolan's Batman doesn't even reduce himself to only saving people when in costume.

He sacrifices himself, for the greater good. Sacrifices his own body. Lets a truck smash into his LAMBO just to keep a snot nosed accountant from releasing HIS identity to the public. Yet he's still a hero enough to stop him.

That's heroic.

No arguments here

 

[Thebumwhowalks]

Not really ... no more "out of no where" than any other line of dialogue in movies. Movies show you essential scenes that make up the plot, with dialogue that reflects the themes of a film, or it's characters. It's supposed to give the audience insight. That's its job believe it or not.

Dialogue in Star Wars, or any other comic book or fantasy film is no believable way people talk. They are grand, and larger than life forms of dialogue. Reflective of the story. The only natural dialogue I have EVER heard on film is film about mundane, ordinary events. Not men who dress up like Bats, or super soldiers, etc.

Notsure if you know what Imean, going by your reply here. What i mean is...there was no evidence forAlfred to base his theory on, it was like it was just shoehorned into the conversation to explain the Joker tothe audience, because the writers felt he should be explianed at that point to folk who might not get it.

It did come out of nowhere.

 

[SmellTheWeird]

it was like it was just shoehorned into the conversation to explain the Joker tothe audience, because the writers felt he should be explianed at that point to folk who might not get it.

Not really. It's a theory on who the Joker was at that point in the film. He is ever evolving as the film progresses. And they peel back layers of him, subtely.

It's actual MAIN purpose was giving the moral ambiguous idea of how Bruce would later catch the agent of chaos, who creates havoc for sport.

"Burn the forrest down"

 

[GothamAlleys]

As smell said, Alfred just assumed. He said 'perhaps', not because he knew police files or psychological profiles, but simply because he, like everyone else , didnt see any reasoning or sense behind Joker's actions so he simply assumed 'what if theres none'?

 

[Thebumwhowalks]

Not really. It's a theory on who the Joker was at that point in the film. He is ever evolving as the film progresses. And they peel back layers of him, subtely.

No, you are missing my point. You can't even tell me how and why Alfred came to that conclusion.
It was a weak point in the writing,not logical.

 

[Thebumwhowalks]

As smell said, Alfred just assumed. He said 'perhaps', not because he knew police files or psychological profiles, but simply because he, like everyone else , didnt see any reasoning or sense behind Joker's actions so he simply assumed 'what if theres none'?

It could easily have been for money, he pulls that theory out of thin air, and the writers gave him a convienient back story so he could rap on it and explian it to the audience.
I mean, he must have known that the Joker had been robbing banks right? If he was following the case, so where on Earth did he get the second sight FBI profile powers from? There was nothing to indicate the Joker's MO, actually the evidence pointed to the contrary.

I'm just saying I'm not wrong, there was no evidence in the writing to tip Alfred off to what the Joker was all about.
Even for him to 'assume' or make an educated guess. The evidence pointed to him actually being after money, unlike the tangerine bandit.

 

[SmellTheWeird]

No, you are missing my point. You can't even tell me how and why Alfred came to that conclusion.
It was a weak point in the writing,not logical.

As GothamAlley said ... it's easy how he came to that conclusion. And ontop of that it was an assumption. An assumption from a man, with worldy knowledge, who had a similar experience in life. Thus the "Perhaps Mister Wayne this is a man YOU don't understand" ... than he gives a relatable example. It well within reason. it's actually quite great writing.

 

[GothamAlleys]

Right. The fact that Alfred knew the story about a similar man is also very important. As for being money oriented, Joker was known to have been robbing a great fortune from mob for a while. He couldve continue what hes succesfully doin and have money from it. His stint on TV didnt make sense and the was no logic behind it. Therefore Alfred simply assumed since no logic presents to itself, perhaps there is none. And he heard about man like these before

Now THIS does make sense and I think is told in a natural way, unlike Kilmer reciting the theme to a brain dead person that cant hear him/understand him

 

[SmellTheWeird]

Right. The fact that Alfred knew the story about a similar man is also very important. As for being money oriented, Joker was known to have been robbing a great fortune from mob for a while. He couldve continue what hes succesfully doin and have money from it. His stint on TV didnt make sense and the was no logic behind it. Therefore Alfred simply assumed since no logic presents to itself, perhaps there is none. And he heard about man like these before

Yup, great minds think a like. Are we long lost brothers or something?

I might have to start visiting your site and posting on it. (It's a great site by the way, my favorite Batman related site in existence)

Now THIS does make sense and I think is told in a natural way, unlike Kilmer reciting the theme to a brain dead person that cant hear him/understand him

Of course that doesn't make sense. It literally came out of no where. And why would he even feel the need to tell this to the Riddler? It's so unequivically stupid. Not to mention the terrible delivery. As per usual with Val Wooden.

Worst performance of the protagonist in the entire series. By far. Yes, Clooney is better than Kilmer. At least he tries to do something in the role.

 

[GothamAlleys]

Yup, great minds think a like. Are we long lost brothers or something?

I might have to start visiting your site and posting on it. (It's a great site by the way, my favorite Batman related site in existence)

Thanks! One thing we're fully disagreeing about is Returns, other than that its pretty spot on

Of course that doesn't make sense. It literally came out of no where. And why would he even feel the need to tell this to the Riddler? It's so unequivically stupid. Not to mention the terrible delivery. As per usual with Val Wooden.

I call him Valium Kilmer

Worst performance of the protagonist in the entire series. By far. Yes, Clooney is better than Kilmer. At least he tries to do something in the role.

Hmm. Well, Clooney played a character, but Im not sure if he played Batman, unless we're talking about the unscarred, "easy going", accesible Batman of the 50s and 60s

 

[AndrewGilkison]

He played George Clooney in a Batsuit. Let's be frank.

 

[Thebumwhowalks]

As GothamAlley said ... it's easy how he came to that conclusion. And ontop of that it was an assumption. An assumption from a man, with worldy knowledge, who had a similar experience in life. Thus the "Perhaps Mister Wayne this is a man YOU don't understand" ... than he gives a relatable example. It well within reason. it's actually quite great writing.

It's what I would call 'easy answer' writing. I'm sure your English teacher would agree with me. In actual fact, it was a friend of mine who pointed out the wonkiness of that part of the writing to me, I went back and looked at the scene, and as well as agreeing that the observation came out of nowhere, as Alfred had no evidence to suggest this M.O., I also realised that there was actually evidence to the contrary. That friend of mine is actually working as an English teacher nowadays, he knows what he's talking about, the only reason Alfred knows what he is talking about, is not because he is a 'worldly man', it's because the writers magically put that idea in his head, as they wanted to spell out the Joker's schtick to the audience.

 

[ALP]

I'm saying Bruce should have left him to die in the first place Bruce wouldn't dealt with him later in the end and yes I know BB wouldn't be good movie if he did that.

Ha, very interesting point to bring up!

During that scene in the Himalayas, Bruce believes Ra's is dead after the wood and fire falls onto Ken Watanabe. The entire scheme of destroying Gotham was thought up and led by Ra's who was such an important and 'royal' character that Bruce had to be trained by the second hand man, Ducard. So when Ra's(Ken) died, Bruce thought it was safe to assume that his entire scheme died with him considering he was the mastermind.

IF Bruce knew that Ducard was the real Ra's Al Ghul then it is entirely possible that he would NOT have saved him.

Well, Bruce showed compassion to criminals. Ra's told him that "compassion is a weakness your enemies will not share." That was big part of his ideology. But Bruce replied: "That's why it's so important. It separates us from them."

Basically, by letting him die, Bruce showed Ra's that he had learnt his lesson. He showed no compassion this second time. Ra's must have died a happy man since the student, even when adamant at the beginning, learnt that compassion WAS indeed a weakness that he had got rid of.

It's the equivalent of Batman killing Joker, so Joker couldn't kill more poeple.

You say BB wouldn't have been that good if Bruce let Ra's die the first time, well he did this second time.

Technically, he did let "Ra's" die the first time. He pushed him into the banister and then the wood fell onto him as Bruce stared at his dead body.

The only reason he let "Ra's" live in the beginning was because he didn't know he was Ra's at all!

He played George Clooney in a Batsuit. Let's be frank.

I've never seen a movie where Clooney showed any diversity. He's always the same person through and through. He always speaks in the same tone and always looks exactly the same. He's always the cool laid back dude who has everything under control. Hell, he was even born with grey hair.

 

[SmellTheWeird]

Thanks! One thing we're fully disagreeing about is Returns, other than that its pretty spot on

Yea. That movie is like Batman Forever, the Burton version to me. Excessive, warped, boring, hammy, over the top ... remedial.

I call him Valium Kilmer

Well played, my dude ... well played.

unless we're talking about the unscarred, "easy going", accesible Batman of the 50s and 60s

That's exactly what he was doing.

 

[El Payaso]

Technically, he did let "Ra's" die the first time. He pushed him into the banister and then the wood fell onto him as Bruce stared at his dead body.

The only reason he let "Ra's" live in the beginning was because he didn't know he was Ra's at all!

You're probably right since he provoked indirectly the fake Ra's death and wasn't worried in the least about it. Because provoking someone's death and blowing a place with people inside just to save one criminal's life makes perfect sense.

Nevertheless he had the flag of 'compassion separates us from them' until he had Ra's on that monorail.

 

[Gotham22]

Batman Forever is no where near being one of the worst movies off all time. What an absurd statement.

Anyway, yea, Kilmer did have the potential to be the best Wayne/Batman. There was flashes of greatness in Forever. Just no where near enough. Kilmer was let down by the script and the director.

Actually Kilmer and Joel were let down by warner brothers.

 

[バット人]

All four Batmen are heroes, three of them have taken lives/killed with the exception of Clooney.

Nuff said.

 

[Doctor Jones]

You're probably right since he provoked indirectly the fake Ra's death and wasn't worried in the least about it. Because provoking someone's death and blowing a place with people inside just to save one criminal's life makes perfect sense.

Nevertheless he had the flag of 'compassion separates us from them' until he had Ra's on that monorail.

With Ra's being a trained League member and leader, he could have jumped off the train himself, then there's that pause and moment where he just thinks, "Ah, **** it."

 

[バット人]

I don't really mind Batman letting Ras plunge to his death on the monorail, in fact, it's preferable to me that he did. Ras would have most likely betrayed Batman soon afterward and attack Gotham again.

However, it does feel a bit out of character. Most of the other interpretations, specifically the animated series and comic version wouldn't have let anyone, even an enemy die. Just the whole grim deliverance of "I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you" with that expression he makes is pretty harsh for a compassionate, chivalrous Batman. In fact the look and his eyes, you know that mannerism he does right before he glides back is something I'd expect from the Keaton Batman. Ras looks completely shocked before accepting his fate.

I'm glad they didn't do the cliched, "TAKE MY HAND, VILLAIN" and then, you know, the villain either refuses or tries to take the hero down with him but Batman's actions in the scene does contradict what was previously established earlier in the film.

 

[Mister Meddle]

Just the whole grim deliverance of "I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you" with that expression he makes is pretty harsh for a compassionate, chivalrous Batman.

I didn't get why they had Batman say that if he technically killed Ra's Al Ghul. He had Gordon destroy the track in order to stop the train with his Batmobile. That makes him responsible for his death. Not that I have a problem with the occasional kill whether it's intentional or if it's to save people. It just seems like one of those small things that they either ignored or just did not think about while filming.

 

[ALP]

All four Batmen are heroes, three of them have taken lives/killed with the exception of Clooney.

Nuff said.

On the contrary, Clooney committed a far worse murder... By doing that movie Clooney's Batman took his own life

I'm glad they didn't do the cliched, "TAKE MY HAND, VILLAIN" and then, you know, the villain either refuses or tries to take the hero down with him but Batman's actions in the scene does contradict what was previously established earlier in the film.

Schumacher says hit:

 

[バット人]

On the contrary, Clooney committed a far worse murder... By doing that movie Clooney's Batman took his own life

Most have missed the after credits scene where the Clooney Batman commits suicide.






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