Schumacher: "Kilmer Is the Best Batman"

[SmellTheWeird]

haha don't bring up the bullet scanning thing as brilliant detective work. It's ****ing idiotic. You don't get finger prints on bullets. Why? Because they are inside casings when they are loaded into a clip

It's a movie ... there is no such thing as brain draining mechanisms, you can't listen to a code for a bank vault by using someone's hearing aid. The scanning the bullet in TDK is far more believable than other things we have seen in Batman movies, or comic book movies in general.

What about the other things I mentioned?

He doesn't really do any detective work.

Sure he does.

At least Kilmer's Wayne solves riddles and contests Nygma's "brain wave" theories.

A giant riddle to reveal the Riddler's identity, as if it wasn't plainly obvious the entire film. Even after he storms into Bruce Wayne's house (Nigma was already clearly obsessed with him, and Bruce knew this) ... and he can't recognize him because of a domino mask, and red buzz cut hair? Really?

That isn't bimbo status?

And he can stitch himself up, not very well i might add

"you make a bloody mess"

"but I learn from my mistakes"

That's the point, he is Batman who is learning his trade.

He isn't exactly great at medicine. Afterall, Fox creates the Fear Toxin antidote.

Wait, Bruce was supposed to create the antidote while he was knocked out for two days?

Hmmm, right. Because that would make total sense.

Yet he's aware enough when he recovers, BEFORE Fox comes in, that he has already started thinking that he has felt the effects before, so he is coming up with a solution in his head.

I think Wayne even makes a joke about not being able to do it himself in Begins.

He makes a joke about being out at night looking for kicks, passing around weaponized hallucinogens.

His detective work of trailing Rachel, he finds out Scarecrow has laced the Gotham water supply with the compound.

Dent's speech at the dinner table is unrealistic. Or at least really over wrought and melodramatic. If i was having dinner and someone starting rambling on like that i'd tell them to piss off to another table. lol. And Alfred's "tangerine" speech is just pure spoon feeding of the entire movies themes.

The Dent thing isn't that bad. It's not even that long winded. The people at the table are having a sophisticated discussion.

The Alfred speech wasn't the long winded either. Does it echo home various themes within the movie? Sure. But that's the point, Batman has never faced an enemy like this ... he wasn't prepared for someone who didn't have a clear motive.

I can't believe as a movie goer you would have a problem with this scene, yet dig ANYTHING in Batman Forever. haha

But then appreciate Batman's speech to Dick Grayson about "revenge", as he then proceeds to purposely drop Two Face to his death by throwing random coins at him, knowing how compulsive and obsessive he is that it would surely lead to his demise.

You're quite the hypocrit when it comes to the Nolan films. Me thinks disdain for how popular they are given their quality as films compared to the rest of the genre.

 

[The Joker]

You're making some first class posts here, SmellTheWeird

 

[SmellTheWeird]

You're making some first class posts here, SmellTheWeird

Thanks, bud.

I know a hater when I see one. Coming up with all these excuses for vastly inferior films and performances, yet with a fine tooth comb, TRYING to pick out negatives from a vastly superior film.

I read one of this guy's post from another thread that said Heath Ledger's Joker wasn't an elite comic book movie villain.

Even if I wasn't a fan of Nolan, Nolan's movies, Bale, Bale's Batman, BEGINS, TDK or even Batman in general ... you'd be a fool to not see given how the character was written, his usage in the film, and how he was acted by Ledger that he isn't clear cut the best comic book movie of all-time. At the very least AMONG the best.


Guy is a serious hater, plain and simple. And what will they always do?

 

[nogap87]

Bah. Adam West clearly played the most intellegent Bruce Wayne. Ever.

He could solve ridiculously absurd riddles and didn't drive like an *******.

 

[SmellTheWeird]

Bah. Adam West clearly played the most intellegent Bruce Wayne. Ever.

Clearly. I wouldn't even argue otherwise, haha ... West is that dude.

I just needed to get some sense into someone who claims Bale's Dark Knight is a bimbo.

Which given context, he clearly isn't. Bale's Batman has taken down the most legitimate threatning obstacles the character has faced on screen. You can't do that by being a dummy.

 

[nogap87]

Its been a while since I've seen Begins but one of my pet peeves with Nolan's Bruce Wayne (or all the movie Waynes) is that there was never any mention that he was a particularly bright or exceptional child. I know it has been addressed in comics but I would like for at least one Batman movie to show that BW (as a kid) was driven to know anything and everything.

 

[Thebumwhowalks]

edit: eh, I'll go back and read this all later.

 

[Thebumwhowalks]

The Alfred speech wasn't the long winded either. Does it echo home various themes within the movie? Sure. But that's the point, Batman has never faced an enemy like this ... he wasn't prepared for someone who didn't have a clear motive.

Something i have wondered about that Alfred speech..doesn't it just come out of nowhere? How does Alfred suddenly know what the Joker's all about?
It does feel very weakly inserted, as if they felt they had to suddenly explain the Joker to the audience, presumably for the benefit of the younger audience, which is understandable, we are talking about a children's character here.
So, y'know, it is a spoon-feeding speech, and it is weakly and illogically inserted, as if Alfred suddenly has these FBI profiler powers that activate as soon as he sees a villan on the telly.

edit: i mean, you are going about calling the morningstar a 'hater', which i don;t think he is, he just has a different viewpoint and opinion of the movie than you.
I could just as easily say that you are so concerned with winning a debate, that you have overlooked any weaknesses in the film that might support his argument.

edit: or, y'know, maybe I have overlooked something in the film, and you can explain to me how Alfred suddenly knows for sure what the joker is all about?

 

[Thebumwhowalks]

A giant riddle to reveal the Riddler's identity, as if it wasn't plainly obvious the entire film. Even after he storms into Bruce Wayne's house (Nigma was already clearly obsessed with him, and Bruce knew this) ... and he can't recognize him because of a domino mask, and red buzz cut hair? Really?

That isn't bimbo status?

Eh, Bruce does not actually encounter the riddler in the flesh until *after* he has solved the riddle of his identity.
The Riddler only shows up on the scene after Bruce has been KO'd. He was down in the batcave the entire time that Bruce was dealing with the thugs.

 

[GothamAlleys]

Hmm, interesting read. Reading latest threads Im amazed how me and Smell have the exact same views, its like seeing myself expressing my views and arguments but with better wording (English is my second language). However one thing I might slightly disagree with Smell is Bale's detective work. I admit theres some, but nothing exceptional, I think he relies primarily on his technology to do most of the work - nothing wrong with that I might add, I think taking away some of the characteristics gives the character more reality. Nolan and Co actually pretty much admitted they didnt get to detective side in BB and mentioned going into it little bit in TDK. As much as I dislike Kilmer and Schumachers movies, I think Kilmers deductive work in the beginning is the prime example of detective work while using deductive thinking and connecting dots. Of course ironically he figures it out AFTER the fact. Anyway, I dont believe Bales usage of his computer and scanning devices can be attributed to great detective work. detective work in my eyes is...well, let the man himself explain it

 

[Thebumwhowalks]

There are many faceats to a Batman story, and you only have two hours to condense lots of aspects of his world, so the detective work only takes up a little of that time, and it's very easy to scoff at as a result.
when a fictional character , such as Batman, has such a reputation as being a top detective, or the top detective, then what usually happens is that the whole movie revolves around that faceat of the character, eg Sherlock Holmes, Miss Marple, Poirot, Columbo....but because Batman is quite the rennasiance man, you are only gonna get a little of that showcased in the movie.

 

[GothamAlleys]

I think most of the movies cover it rather well with the time they have. For example Bruce is doing classic detective work checking old newspapers about Penguin, also finds his lair. I think Forever is right next to it as far as showcasing Batmans detective work/deductive thinking. Batman, BB and TDK also have a fair share of it

 

[SmellTheWeird]

Hmm, interesting read. Reading latest threads Im amazed how me and Smell have the exact same views, its like seeing myself expressing my views and arguments but with better wording (English is my second language).

Thank you ... that's quite a compliment.

However one thing I might slightly disagree with Smell is Bale's detective work. I admit theres some, but nothing exceptional

In terms of what we've seen on screen, it's better than what we've seen before.

But people's views on detective work varries ... do people expect to see Batman sitting in front of a computer screen thinking for ten minutes? haha ... there is various forms to detective work.

I think he relies primarily on his technology to do most of the work - nothing wrong with that I might add

Not at all. Because actual detective in real life don't do everything themselves either. And technology plays a HUGE role in detective work. There are forensic labs, etc. Those scientists aren't the detectives. Detectives uncover the facts, or perps of the crimes committed. How they get to that resolution varries.

I don't think there is a clear cut definition of what people consider "detective work"

Batman has done it in spades in all the movies, yet it's ALWAYS complained about. He figured out the poison mixtures for Smile-X in B89. People claimed no detective work. Batman follows people in BEGINS, spying on them, and checking out Scarecrows apartment with the bunnies for leads. That is DETECTIVE work. haha

People literally want to see Batman stair at a peatree dish for a whole scene for it to be considered detective work? it's a vague idea. And I don't think a lot of you know what detective work actually is ...

Batman doesn't come up with the antidote in BEGINS, but using that he puts together all the pieces of the larger puzzle. THAT'S detective work. Detectives in real life don't even uncover all the small details of a case. Some are given to them, others they have to find out.

Bale's Batman uses his technology to ASSIST him in DEDUCING problems. He uses critical thinking. That, once again, is prime examples of detective work.

 

[Thebumwhowalks]

I think most of the movies cover it rather well with the time they have. For example Bruce is doing classic detective work checking old newspapers about Penguin, also finds his lair. I think Forever is right next to it as far as showcasing Batmans detective work/deductive thinking. Batman, BB and TDK also have a fair share of it

Yeah, that is what I was saying, I was talking about all of the movies.
well, apart from B&R, I don't even recall if there is any detective work in that one at all.

 

[Spoonman]

SmellTheWeird saying that Batman Forever's diealog is preachy while defending The Dark Knight is really funny, I mean don't get me wrong I love TDK but I just lol'd.

 

[ALP]

haha don't bring up the bullet scanning thing as brilliant detective work. It's ****ing idiotic. You don't get finger prints on bullets. Why? Because they are inside casings when they are loaded into a clip He doesn't really do any detective work. He doesn't really display any form of genius level intellect in any of Nolan's films. At least Kilmer's Wayne solves riddles and contests Nygma's "brain wave" theories.

The riddles in BF were so lackluster. LOL, all they add up to was the identity of the Riddler. It could have been something so clever, but no. Talk about bad writing

It's a movie ... there is no such thing as brain draining mechanisms, you can't listen to a code for a bank vault by using someone's hearing aid. The scanning the bullet in TDK is far more believable than other things we have seen in Batman movies, or comic book movies in general.

I agree with just about everything you've been saying thus far but I don't think the finger print from the shell casing is any more or less realistic than cracking a vault code with a hearing aid. The difference is that Nolan just gives us things in a matter of fact way without cheese or camp like Schumacher.

The brain drain in Batman Forever in theory isn't any less realistic than say the microwave emitter in Begins considering it had absolutely no effect on the water within people's bodies. Other examples in Nolan's movies include the cloning machine in The Prestige and the ability to invade people's dreams in Inception. Nolan just presents us with the unreal in a plausible manner that we buy into because it 'feels' realistic and is explained in a way that sounds good as opposed to "stick this doohickey on your head and it will drain the power from people's minds into yours and then you become evil genius!"

 

[Invisiboy]

I would argue Clooney at least sort of got the attitude down (i.e. confident and in control of the situation) and might have been an okay Batman with a better suit and dialogue; however, I won't defend him too much.

On the other hand, I seem to be one of the few people who don't like Christian Bale's Batman at all. Between the infamous "Bat-voice" and the over-sized costume, he seems like some pampered wimp trying to convince people that he's some tough badass. Also, notice how he never really saves anybody in a heroic way. There's Rachel, but he has the hots for her and (as I remember it) never indicates that he would have done the same if she were just some stranger. He basically stops the microwave emitter by getting off of a train and leaving his enemy to die (nice job not being an "executioner" there) and in TDK Gotham more or less saves itself and Batman's rescue of the Joker is more of an "I can too! Watch me!" than actual heroism.

As far as the realism, I think Schumacher was at least up front about making a comic book movie rather than anything believable. Nolan, on the other hand, made a big deal about his movies being based in reality, so divergences from that can and should be noted.

 

[I Am The Knight]

Anyone else find that article incredibly pendantic? It's like a Nolan fanboy got offended over their boy Bale not being named the prettiest girl at the prom...Not unlike SmellTheWeird here

 

[Thebumwhowalks]

On the other hand, I seem to be one of the few people who don't like Christian Bale's Batman at all. Between the infamous "Bat-voice" and the over-sized costume, he seems like some pampered wimp trying to convince people that he's some tough badass.

eh, in BB he goes awol with no money, living amongst criminals and surviving on his wits for 7 years, to get away from any accusations that he might be some kind of 'pampered wimp'. Which is how Falcone called it, although he didn't think Wayne was a wimp, thinking he had spirit, but knowing the world of the criminal was alien to him.

Also, notice how he never really saves anybody in a heroic way. There's Rachel, but he has the hots for her and (as I remember it) never indicates that he would have done the same if she were just some stranger. He basically stops the microwave emitter by getting off of a train and leaving his enemy to die (nice job not being an "executioner" there) and in TDK Gotham more or less saves itself and Batman's rescue of the Joker is more of an "I can too! Watch me!" than actual heroism.

In the finale of TDK he upsets part of the Joker's plan by saving a busload of hostages from being killed by the swat team, he also saves Gordon's son from being murdered by Two-Face, and takes the heat for the Dent murders, so that all of those criminals he busted under the rico charge would not be released back onto the streets.

as for the Ras thing, eh I already explianed my pov on that in the other thread yesterday.

 

[The Joker]

He basically stops the microwave emitter by getting off of a train and leaving his enemy to die (nice job not being an "executioner" there) and in TDK Gotham more or less saves itself and Batman's rescue of the Joker is more of an "I can too! Watch me!" than actual heroism

He stopped the microwave emitter by having Gordon destroy the tracks. Ra's sealed his own fate by smashing the brakes. "My fate lies with the rest of Gotham". Either way Batman stopped the microwave emitter.

He stopped the Joker from blowing up the ferries. Joker said if one of the boats didn't press the button then he'd blow them both up. He was about to do just that when he realized they were not going to kill each other, when Batman stopped him. He also saved the hospital hostages from the SWAT team. He saved Gordon's son from Two Face.

A hero all around.

 

[Two-Face]

Also he saved Ra's before in the begininng look what happened there.... And yeah Ra's sealed his own fate in the end.

 

[Doctor Jones]

See i think Kilmer's Wayne's argument with O'Donnell's Grayson in the Bat-Cave about what revenge does to a person is the best Bruce Wayne moment in all the movies. Also his disagreement with Nygma when he presents his "brain-wave" tech. And his confrontation with the Riddler at the end was awesome.

God, I love that scene. It's probably my favorite in the film. I also love the last scene with Nygma too. Gives me chills.

This Red Book trailer makes it even better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DFannlWa74

 

[El Payaso]

Also he saved Ra's before in the begininng look what happened there....

What do you mean? What happened?

 

[Two-Face]

I'm saying Bruce should have left him to die in the first place Bruce wouldn't dealt with him later in the end and yes I know BB wouldn't be good movie if he did that.

 

[El Payaso]

I'm saying Bruce should have left him to die in the first place Bruce wouldn't dealt with him later in the end and yes I know BB wouldn't be good movie if he did that.

Well, Bruce showed compassion to criminals. Ra's told him that "compassion is a weakness your enemies will not share." That was big part of his ideology. But Bruce replied: "That's why it's so important. It separates us from them."

Basically, by letting him die, Bruce showed Ra's that he had learnt his lesson. He showed no compassion this second time. Ra's must have died a happy man since the student, even when adamant at the beginning, learnt that compassion WAS indeed a weakness that he had got rid of.

It's the equivalent of Batman killing Joker, so Joker couldn't kill more poeple.

You say BB wouldn't have been that good if Bruce let Ra's die the first time, well he did this second time.