The All Things Flash Thread. - Part 2

[TheVileOne]

Well, I'll concede the term defending may not be the best term to use.

But there are certainly fans of their's who feel sympathy for them .

There are certain alot in fandom , outside of twitter ,who are willing to look past the allegations , true or not, because they want to see the film.

I haven't seen anyone challenge that.

Feeling sympathy for a person who has done wrong doesn't necessarily make one a bad person. People wanting to see The Flash also doesn't make them bad people either.

Listen, I have no problem if you don't want to see the movie because Ezra Miller's behavior makes you never want to see or support them again, but those beliefs also shouldn't be forced on others.

If we're really going to have this moral absolutism, then no one should really ever watch a James Cameron movie again for all the terrible things he said and did to Kate Winslet on Titanic. Bullying her and body shaming her for her weight.

 

[dhandler01]

Or watch Hitchcock films for that matter...

 

[MaceB]

Listen, I have no problem if you don't want to see the movie because Ezra Miller's behavior makes you never want to see or support them again, but those beliefs also shouldn't be forced on others.

I'm just a citizen. I don't have the power to force anyone to do anything. What some are really asking for here is to be free of judgement. But judgement is inescapable.

If we're really going to have this moral absolutism, then no one should really ever watch a James Cameron movie again for all the terrible things he said and did to Kate Winslet on Titanic. Bullying her and body shaming her for her weight.

Most folks would say grooming minors and assaulting multiple women is a bigger deal. And people get to choose what they care about. One may not think that it's fair, but they can't force their views onto others, either.

This idea that we need to do a book report and review all grievances in the movie industry before we can judge Ezra's actions is just a smokescreen.

 

[dhandler01]

Why is it a smokescreen? It is not some halfhearted defense of the indefensible, it is just pointing out that the current moral outrage over it is kind of hypocritical since lots of the directors and actors everyone praises throughout the history of all art were awful people who did unspeakable things. It is awesome that it is being called out and here is hoping if what Ezra is accused of is true they get everything that is coming to them. It just rings pretty hollow for those of us that have watched over the years as what others did was whitewashed in the name of high art. (especially by the very trades and media types that now are just so up in arms over it)

Everyone is free to feel how they feel about the film and whether they want to see it. Just because some of us do doesn't make us Ezra defenders or bad people, and those that don't aren't virtue signalers or haters. We all just have our opinions and we do the best we can with that.

 

[kguillou]

Exactly, its as simple as that. I've mentally divorced myself of my feelings about Ezra from this movie. I still REALLY wanna see this movie, its got a solid director behind it, the debut of Supergirl, the return of General Zod and Faora which are my favorite DC villains personally AND the the return of my favorite Batman, The Batman of my childhood. And if the feedback from the test screenings is to be believed, Keaton is a total badass and delivers in this movie. Plus from some of the spoilers I've skimmed thru, there's a lot of fun surprises and action set pieces we have to look forward to. so...yeah, I'm honestly pretty excited about this movie and I'm going to judge it as a movie and support Muschietti and Keaton and Calle by buying a ticket to it opening weekend.

 

[TheVileOne]

I'm just a citizen. I don't have the power to force anyone to do anything. What some are really asking for here is to be free of judgement. But judgement is inescapable.



Most folks would say grooming minors and assaulting multiple women is a bigger deal. And people get to choose what they care about. One may not think that it's fair, but they can't force their views onto others, either.

This idea that we need to do a book report and review all grievances in the movie industry before we can judge Ezra's actions is just a smokescreen.

None of it is a smokescreen.

 

[MaceB]

Why is it a smokescreen? It is not some halfhearted defense of the indefensible, it is just pointing out that the current moral outrage over it is kind of hypocritical since lots of the directors and actors everyone praises throughout the history of all art were awful people who did unspeakable things.

You asked how it's a smokescreen, and then answered it. It's a smokescreen, because what other people do has nothing to do with Ezra's crimes.... it's being brought up as a distraction and nothing more.
Also, what-about-ism is about as poor of an argument as one can make. Can I not be upset when a murder takes place? I mean.... other people have murdered more. Am I not allowed to argue against pedophile predators, because some people are even worse?

It is awesome that it is being called out and here is hoping if what Ezra is accused of is true they get everything that is coming to them.

So.....on the one hand, Ezra should face justice, but on the other hand, anyone who criticizes them is just being hypocritical? Seems like you want it both ways, here. You say, 'It's awesome that it is being called out" but in the same breath, say, "the current moral outrage over it is kind of hypocritical." Point of fact... if you were analyze crimes in this way, EVERY criminal act is hypocritical. There's always something or someone worse.

It just rings pretty hollow for those of us that have watched over the years as what others did was whitewashed in the name of high art. (especially by the very trades and media types that now are just so up in arms over it)

.
You criticize people for whitewashing crimes, and then do the same thing for Ezra, here. Am I perfect? No, I am not. I think I'm a pretty equal opportunity critic of movie star abusive predators, but I'm also sure that I've missed a few and that I have blindspots. I am human. But to use that as a cover for forgiving Ezra is inappropriate, IMO.

Everyone is free to feel how they feel about the film and whether they want to see it. Just because some of us do doesn't make us Ezra defenders or bad people, and those that don't aren't virtue signalers or haters. We all just have our opinions and we do the best we can with that.

.

I don't think it makes anyone a bad person, but it does show people's priorities. And I'm free to have an opinion. I think Ezra is hot garbage. I feel grossed out by efforts to try to excuse this behavior, and I don't like it when people gaslight others by saying, "hey, I'm not defending the person..... but oh, in their defense, others are worse." If one has an opinion about it - fine. But staking claim to both sides of the debate doesn't make one sensible or reasonable. Some people care more about this movie than the accusations against Ezra. And folks are free to make that choice. I can understand it. But I don't agree with it. And I'm free to criticize that opinion as I like.

 

[MaceB]

None of it is a smokescreen.

Why do you say that?

 

[dhandler01]

You asked how it's a smokescreen, and then answered it. It's a smokescreen, because what other people do has nothing to do with Ezra's crimes.... it's being brought up as a distraction and nothing more.
Also, what-about-ism is about as poor of an argument as one can make. Can I not be upset when a murder takes place? I mean.... other people have murdered more. Am I not allowed to argue against pedophile predators, because some people are even worse?



So.....on the one hand, Ezra should face justice, but on the other hand, anyone who criticizes them is just being hypocritical? Seems like you want it both ways, here. You say, 'It's awesome that it is being called out" but in the same breath, say, "the current moral outrage over it is kind of hypocritical." Point of fact... if you were analyze crimes in this way, EVERY criminal act is hypocritical. There's always something or someone worse.

.
You criticize people for whitewashing crimes, and then do the same thing for Ezra, here. Am I perfect? No, I am not. I think I'm a pretty equal opportunity critic of movie star abusive predators, but I'm also sure that I've missed a few and that I have blindspots. I am human. But to use that as a cover for forgiving Ezra is inappropriate, IMO.

.

I don't think it makes anyone a bad person, but it does show people's priorities. And I'm free to have an opinion. I think Ezra is hot garbage. I feel grossed out by efforts to try to excuse this behavior, and I don't like it when people gaslight others by saying, "hey, I'm not defending the person..... but oh, in their defense, others are worse." If one has an opinion about it - fine. But staking claim to both sides of the debate doesn't make one sensible or reasonable. Some people care more about this movie than the accusations against Ezra. And folks are free to make that choice. I can understand it. But I don't agree with it. And I'm free to criticize that opinion as I like.

You seem to not be understanding what I'm trying to convey but it is pretty much not how you are interpreting it. (which I assume is my fault) I'm not defending him or what others did...I'm also not criticizing you or others that are so disgusted they can't see the film I totally get it! I do take offense at the characterization made of those of us who plan to see it but I get that too. I am not smokescreening because that would mean I am trying to in some way deflect or hide the situation...absolutely not. I am glad this is all public, I am glad it won't be covered up or rehabbed in any significant way and I am glad that after this Ezra is done as a character I dearly love. Me pointing out that Hitchcock was awful to his actresses is just me pointing out that sadly this has been going on since time immortal. It isn't a commentary on you or others, it is a commentary on how men in Hollywood are just scum. It is also a commentary on how we all make our little deals with ourselves to be able to get that which we want out of art. That doesn't excuse or hide the disgusting crap Ezra is accused of and I will state that for the record and repeat ad infinitum.

The hypocritical ones aren't you guys...it's the frauds in the media who are using this to further their own means.

I'm just gonna bow out because it's getting us nowhere and I'm not here to fight. I have zero beef with anyone here and I want to keep it as such. Sorry if I offended you somehow.

 

[Da-Scribe]

All I know is I’m still gonna see this movie because a lot of good folks who have not brought harm to anyone worked on it. This is supposed to be Calle’s big break and she doesn’t deserve to have that sidelined because of Ezra.

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

Exactly, its as simple as that. I've mentally divorced myself of my feelings about Ezra from this movie. I still REALLY wanna see this movie, its got a solid director behind it, the debut of Supergirl, the return of General Zod and Faora which are my favorite DC villains personally AND the the return of my favorite Batman

Yes

All I know is I’m still gonna see this movie because a lot of good folks who have not brought harm to anyone worked on it. This is supposed to be Calle’s big break and she doesn’t deserve to have that sidelined because of Ezra.

And yes.

 

[marvelboy10]

i don't care about all of this. Ezra can do anything he wants. as long as the man is a good actor, it's all that matter.

i'm not a judge. I want justice but also a great Flash movie.

 

[metaphysician]

i don't care about all of this. Ezra can do anything he wants. *snip*
.

And this is what is wrong with media consumption culture: an open, almost proud indifference to actually being a decent human being. Not simply being unwilling to give up a media product you enjoy because some of the people making it are awful ( which is perfectly fair and reasonable ), but actively holding up said unwillingness as a virtue. The idea that the people making the stuff you buy should be held to certain minimal standards of basic decency apparently being unthinkable.

( And no, none of the stuff I cut out changes anything. Once you say "They can do anything they want, I don't care", nothing after that actually matters. The reason you don't care is irrelevant compared with the fact that you just admitted to not caring. )

 

[Deck Rickard]

And this is what is wrong with media consumption culture: an open, almost proud indifference to actually being a decent human being. Not simply being unwilling to give up a media product you enjoy because some of the people making it are awful ( which is perfectly fair and reasonable ), but actively holding up said unwillingness as a virtue. The idea that the people making the stuff you buy should be held to certain minimal standards of basic decency apparently being unthinkable.

( And no, none of the stuff I cut out changes anything. Once you say "They can do anything they want, I don't care", nothing after that actually matters. The reason you don't care is irrelevant compared with the fact that you just admitted to not caring. )

Seriously. Kevin Spacey and Chris D’Elia were cut out of movies because they are sex offenders. Armie Hammer’s career is over for being a sex offender. And there’s a good chance Ezra is too. I’ve seen movies with problematic actors before but this level of creep is definitely where I draw the line. Especially since, in Ezra’s case, kids might be involved.

And even if Ezra isn’t a pedophile, they’re still a person who choked a woman and threw a chair at another one. And WB knew of the choking incident and STILL moved forward with Ezra and this movie (and that was even after other directors left the project because they apparently couldn’t stand working with Ezra).

I’ve wanted to see a Flash movie for decades but I have no interest in this because 1. Ezra is a POS, 2. Their take on the character has been crap thus far and 3. That leaked story for this movie sounded terrible. If people want to ignore all the **** that Ezra had done, that’s their prerogative but I can’t watch this movie. I feel bad for Sasha Calle and maybe Kiersey Clemons since they are young actors who need work, but that’s about it. Keaton, Shannon, Affleck, etc. and director Andy Muschietti should have known better.

 

[marvelboy10]

And this is what is wrong with media consumption culture: an open, almost proud indifference to actually being a decent human being. Not simply being unwilling to give up a media product you enjoy because some of the people making it are awful ( which is perfectly fair and reasonable ), but actively holding up said unwillingness as a virtue. The idea that the people making the stuff you buy should be held to certain minimal standards of basic decency apparently being unthinkable.

( And no, none of the stuff I cut out changes anything. Once you say "They can do anything they want, I don't care", nothing after that actually matters. The reason you don't care is irrelevant compared with the fact that you just admitted to not caring. )

i also said i want justice too. if this guy is guilty, then he deserves prison. i'm all for it. but this is not my role. let a judge - and not twitter or even worse superhero hype- decide.

personally i'm waiting for the ultimate decision during a trial. until then, what else we can say...

 

[dhandler01]

We can say exactly how we feel. We don't have to abide by the "innocent until proven guilty" mantra because we are not a court of law. We can just believe they are scum.

 

[Deck Rickard]

Especially when there is actual VIDEO FOOTAGE of Ezra assaulting someone. That’s all the proof I need that they are trash. Anything else that gets proven in a court of law (possible sex offenses, other assaults, burglaries, etc.) only reaffirms that point.

 

[Captain Tired]

and not twitter or even worse superhero hype- decide.

They're different variations of excrement. I don't think you can definitively state one is better than the other. Also @dhandler01 you forgot to self-police your use of pronouns up yonder.

 

[dhandler01]

Fixed.

 

[marvelboy10]

They're different variations of excrement. I don't think you can definitively state one is better than the other. Also @dhandler01 you forgot to self-police your use of pronouns up yonder.

We can say exactly how we feel. We don't have to abide by the "innocent until proven guilty" mantra because we are not a court of law. We can just believe they are scum.

Especially when there is actual VIDEO FOOTAGE of Ezra assaulting someone. That’s all the proof I need that they are trash. Anything else that gets proven in a court of law (possible sex offenses, other assaults, burglaries, etc.) only reaffirms that point.

let justice be done though the heavens fall.

 

[dhandler01]

You are free to do as you please. Don't tell us how we are supposed to think about said person. Justice is not done in a court of law anyways...

 

[Detective Conan]

 

[antsman41]

 

[dhandler01]

I laughed way too hard at that...

 

[emc5466]

The Flash is receiving test scores on par with Christopher Nolan’s Dark Knight trilogy. God damn.