The Official Flash Thread - Part 2

[Rorschach2012]

Gorilla Grodd, Mirror Master, or Reverse Flash for villains

 

[Joeyjojo72]

Reverse... flash? Huh.

I happen to like Gorilla Grodd but that might be tough to pull off in a live action movie.

 

[The Guard]

Yes, we did learn that. Which is why doing Parallax in the very first film was completely stupid and contributed to the film's disaster. Much like Parallax, Reverse Flash should be saved for at least the second film.

Parallax isn't Green Lantern's best villain, though, even if he may be their most dangerous. Parallax is a giant space light being who makes people afraid. And that's about all it is. Which is why, when that was presented in the movie, people were underwhelmed with it. They also included Hector Hammond, who is like Hal's third or fourth most interesting, relevant and "well known" villain.

Sinestro is the villain who is the most emotionally complex, and most relevant to the core concept, and the villain they should have used, were they leading with their best.

For The Flash, ideally it would be:

1. Thawne, intro the concept of The Rogues
2. The Rogues, possibly future/Iron Heights Rogues as well
3. Grodd and the return of The Rogues (possibly working with The Flash this time).

There are plenty of ways to up the stakes from his arch enemy. Make the ripples of his arch enemy's actions felt from film to film.

 

[lixdexia]

that's the villain breakdown i want to see.

i also want the series to be about wally growing up and growing into the role of the flash. barry would be the flash in the first film, but the story would be about wally growing up. barry would retire in the future getting a happy ending and pass the torch to wally.

 

[The Overlord]

Didn't we learn anything from GREEN LANTERN?

You lead with your best. There's always a way to raise stakes with other villains.

As a counter argument, let me ask this, was it a mistake to have Ra's Al Ghul be the villain in Batman begins and save Joker the Dark Knight? The door swings both ways, sometimes its best to use the nemesis first and some times its best to save them for a later film.

Really Flash should start out less powerful and get more powerful as the series goes on, so he has a learning curve and can't defeat his enemies with ease. If you already have Flash face his most powerful enemy in the first movie, he is going to walk all over the next villain, unless you have massive amounts of plot induced stupidity, as often happens in the comics.

Its like having the FF face and defeat Galactus in the first movie and then trying to have Mole Man or the Frightful Four in the next film, it doesn't work and messes up any sense of progression in the series.

Plus Reserve Flash's quest to destroy Flash's life is less compelling when we only see Flash's life for 30 minutes before Reverse Flash tries to destroy it, its more engaging to set up Flash's life in the first film, have the sub plot with say Barry Allen beginning to date Iris west in the first film and have them be a couple in the second film, where Reverse Flash goes after her. Reverse Flash targeting Barry Allen will have more of an impact if we get all the set up with his life done in the first film.

 

[Kevin Smith]

Kevin Smith, I understand your issues with my Wally movie idea. So I challenged myself to think of a more traditional Barry idea...

- The idea of an averagem everyday joe thats slow becoming fast is obviously key. No one should ever mistake Barry for a superhero, hell I don't want Barry to be a noticeable guy to the naked eye. Thats why I'm not big on Ryan Gosling in the role. You need an actor who can blend in, emote, capable in action scenes, and deliver deadpan humor. My choice is Ben McKenzie.

I like that choice a lot, but worried he may be a bit "old" for the part. I think he'd do very well, but WB likes to go for younger actors for their series as you know. In a movie wher John Hamm is Superman, he'd be damn near perfect casting. I mainly suggest Gosling because other than the fact that he is a "big star", he very much has the average "everyman" "guy next door" qualities to him that you'd want in The Flash....only thing that really draws attention to him is the fact that he's Ryan Gosling, one of the hollywood big shots right now. The other reason I suggest Gosling is because he's who the creators of the current (and quite excellent, certainly of all the New 52 series to say the least, IMHO) Flash series (Brian Buccellato and Francis Manapul) envision as Barry Allen if they had to cast an actor to play him (I know this because I have spoken to them personally about it ).

- I'm going with the idea of the superhero genre meets Dexter meets an Apatow film, dialouge speaking.

Nice.

- I maintain that Reverse Flash must be the villian. In a Barry Allen film, I'm going with Eobard Thawne time travelling back to the present.

I think he needs to be in the series for sure, but in the second film. I'm tired of movies where the hero fights a villain who has the same powers as they, especially the first time around. Let's be a little more original for the first movie and show the audience a threat and someone who can be The Flash's "equal" but NOT have the same powers as he.

That's why I suggest Mirror Master because 1.) we haven't seen anything like his powers in a film before, closest to it I think would be possibly Nightcrwaler like in the X-Men films, 2.) his powers can negate The Flash's, and 3.) in the '60s he was once considered to be The Flash's number one foe, before Thawne, even before Cold.

Yeah, I know the Rogues were played for jokes a lot of times in the comics, but they have so much potential, and they can be done serious and even scary some of them, this is a great opportunity and one area I would differ a little from the comics, The Rogues won't necessarily need to teamup to potentially beat The Flash (certainly not ALL of them anyway).

Flash has superspeed and having him fight a bad guy with superspeed for the first movie is so...it's like you didn't have to think very hard to pick the bad guy. Now having an enemy who has something to do with mirrors? That's almost as bizarre a relationship as Batman VS Joker, but you have a lot of interesting ideas and themes you can explore there in relation to The Flash like "teleportation" vs super speed: which is faster, The Flash VS reflective light, is he faster than a reflection? Things like that I think would be cool. I'd love to see Captain Cold in a film but we've seen ice powers a couple of times and you know the Mr Freeze comparisons would be all people would say (for now), even though Cold was first (IIRC). Weather Wizard would also be cool but we've seen weather manipulation before with Storm. We haven't seen someone who can show up through reflections and reflective surfaces. Lot of potential there.

That said, a time travelling villain in a superhero movie is a REALLY sweet idea, and Professor Thawne is an awesome villain and definitely needs a movie. he is the very best The Flash has to offer and his dynamic with Barry (all the speedsters for that matter but Barry especially) is great and unique. While I'm not 100% opposed to the idea of him being used in the first movie, I really feel that if they put their efforts to it they can get a good, SOLID movie out of The Flash before using Thawne just yet, and I'ld like to see them try that first.

(although if you think about it all of the other superheroes (Batman, Superman) sans GL faced their arch enemy in their original big screen debuts, so I fully understand the reasoning behind wanting Thawne as the villain in the first movie, but I maintain in the case of GL that the reason why that movie failed was not because Sinestro wasn't the villain but because of bad writing, the excellent first draft was proof of that and a far cry from the finished product, and it had most of the same characters in it)

I see your Barry Allen as the lightning bolt granting Barry his powers and I raise you Thawne being the lightning bolt. I want to continue the DC trend from Begins and MOS of the villian being a mirror image of the hero...

That's interesting, but how is Thawne the lightning bolt? The idea of Barry being the lightning bolt only works as told in Secret Origins Annual #2 where it's shown that in Crisis On Infinite Earths when Barry ran several 100 times faster than the speed of light he moved backwards through time and became the lightning bolt that hit himself, emphasizing the white circle behind the lightning in The Flash's insignia. I like this idea but only if they do his "death" (like in my proposed Flash trilogy ) in the third film, an idea like this is too much to explain or have in the first movie, too much "plot". This works to me as a nice idea for part 3 story material that re-ignites interest in the origin and harkens back to the first film, a la what they (incorrectly) tried to do with Sandman being Uncle Ben's killer in Spider-Man 3. Not a film to emulate, but I can look at and see what they were trying to do idea wise, even though I was not a fan of that change, the idea of retouching on the first film and sort of looking at it through another prism is interesting to me and one I like (TDKR did this somewhat as well).

...instead of the cliche superhero and supervillian created within the same week and now their mortal enemies shlock.

I hate the "bad guy gets powers same week as hero" shlock as you put it, but there is no reason why Mirror Master has to attain his powers the same week or even around the same time as The Flash does. They can have him established some time as a criminal using this device, slowly becoming more "warped" by it by the time the movie begins. That's the route I'd go, have him already established for the most part and the forensics guys trying to figure what to make of the bizzarre crimes, Barry can have put him away in a flashback once in one of his early crimes or perhaps it's a "reflection" of Scudder he's locked up and not the real guy. Either way, I agree, I definitely don't want to do the "hero/villain creation in the same week" bit.

- Barry Allen can create the Flash based on his comic book love of the Jay Garrick Flash. Go with a compression material, maybe wetsuit esque Flash costume. And I do like the idea someone on here had of Flash wearing a visor.

Fine with all of that except for the visor part, I am absolutely 100% opposed to a Cyclops looking lense or visor of any sort on The Flash. He must look like The Flash and his look is perfect the way it is. Jay Garrick as a fictitious comic character also works and sets it up for the next film or a future film where Barry could vibrate and discover "earth 2" or a different "reality" where Jay Garrick actually exists and they could have their exploits together and both visit each others worlds and help out.

- Give me time to see how I want to take the Barry/Iris love story. I like the idea of him having a thing for Iris and wanting to ask her out but just always missing out. I do want Wally in the movie somehow though as a teenager.

No prob, man, and if Wally is in the first film, he should be younger than a teenager, maybe a "tween", certainly not old enough to drive just yet. I want Wally to get his powers around 12 or 13 so we can see him as Kid Flash a good bit and they can even use him in a Teen Titans film or two while Barry is Flash in the main Flash trilogy, and maybe even shows up in Teen Titans to interact with Wally a bit, and Kid Flash can show up in the JLA films and interact with Barry a bit too. A "Marvel style" sharded universe would really be great and The Flash is the ties that bind.

- Giacchino for the score

No complaints there.
The Flash needs a good "hummable" score. I miss those days in superhero movies.

- I like Mirror Master idea for a sequel. Your right, thats a good psychologically threatening villian and would allow Barry to get all CSI.

Thanks, I'm glad someone else can see what great potential that character has and what a good dynamic he could provide for Barry Allen.

- The movie should end with The Flash being beloved, and my idea for a cameo from Cavill's Superman in a race with the Flash for charity being the films end.

A Flash/Superman race would be fantastic, however it's something I feel they should address and would be ideal in a JLA film, the equivalent of Thor VS Hulk in Avengers, little fanboy moments like that that even the general audiences is curious about. That's at the top of the list for me of things I want to see in a JLA film.

- Central City was originally in Ohio. And as an Ohioan, thats where it should stay damnit. So I would film the movie in Columbus or Cincinnati. Cleveland has been used for Avengers, obviously.

Sounds good man.

Looking forward to your other ideas. Thanks for playing along.

 

[Kevin Smith]

Because they kind of aren't. A lot of them have ******, very cliche motivations and silly gimmicky powers that don't so much set them apart. What sets them apart is their dynamic as a group, and that they recognize the fact that they're kind of silly and pathetic in general.

I don't know that I agree that Flash has the best rogues, or even better developed ones. A lot of them have historically been somewhat carboard, though they are definitely more accessible than a lot of other villains. What he has is one of the best rogues groups/teams, what have you. Half the reason the Rogues work is because of their modern group dynamic, and the relevant, somewhat down-to-earth acceptance that they are kind of silly and over the top. But they choose to be.

And the Rogues can absolutely work, if filmmakers go heavy, almost futuristic sci-fi with their gadgets and weaponry. Which to me, says that perhaps Eobard Thawne should be the initial and key villain and have a role in arming these otherwise unimpressive criminals, perhaps in a bid to destroy The Flash's legacy.

But I've said it before, I'll say it again...above all else, the strength of the Flash mythos is the focus on legacy. Be it the legacy of speedsters, the Rogues, or Central and Keystone cities themselves. The Flash museum becomes a metaphor for what is most interesting about The Flash and his world.

The legacy aspect of The Flash only became prevalent when Wally West became The Flash. It wasn't at all what the silver age Flash was about, same for GL, neither of which were created to be that (except maybe GL in a sense since his story literally began with him taking over for his predecessor and inheriting his powers from him). The Flash was about crazy psuedo science and criminals and a guy who ran fast before it ever was about "legacy" and "family". The Flash needs to be about speed and its various forms and what that means, save the legacy stuff for later on down the line after people care about The Flash so they can care about the legacy. IMO, that's the best way to go.

And I really want the Rogues to be established as threatening and dangerous in their own right, individually, without needing to be a team to beat The Flash. I may differ somewhat from the comics there a little with that idea, but I really believe it's for the better if they aren't all, certainly not most of them, are not played for laughs. You can have some true great threats there, there's a lot of potential with making them that lethal individually that makes it twice as great when they're all teamed up, IMO.

I don't know how you guys don't know how awesome his villains are...

Agreed. They can all be very awesome and threatening and even scary with interesting psychological profiles a la Batman's villains if done right. And this may include differing from some of the comics in that they're all (certainly most at least) treated seriously, and are able to work well on their own. <<< That's the way to do them, IMO. I think it'd work well.

 

[Kevin Smith]

Didn't we learn anything from GREEN LANTERN?

You lead with your best. There's always a way to raise stakes with other villains.

The problem with the GREEN LANTERN movie was the horrendous writing and a director who failed to get the character, but it was mostly the horrendous writing that killed it. The characters were not the problem, but rather their poor portrayals were. The first draft of the script was fantastic and would have made a great movie, and it had much of the same characters that were in the film, it was just a much better, much more exciting and engaging script than the end result film itself.

All that lies with getting a good script, not what villains are used (for the most part).

 

[Kevin Smith]

Here's how they should do The Flash trilogy if they were doing a DC film Universe ala the Marvel Movie Universe (ideally):

- Flash 1: Origin (Barry Allen), villain is the Mirror Master

- Flash 2: Barry discovers time/dimension/reality travel by accident with his powers, works with Jay Garrick (Flash of different dimension) and fights Reverse Flash aka Professor Thawne (who keeps ****ing Barry's life up or trying to at least), young Wally West is introduced, maybe gets powers (minor subplot) and is possibly shown as Kid Flash briefly (although Wally not being shown as Kid Flash until part 3 and only getting his powers in part 2 is fine too, part 2 ending on the implication that Barry will take Wally under his wing and train him to be a hero)

- Flash 3: BIG EPIC END to THE FLASH trilogy, Flash faces off against the ANTI MONITOR, other DCU heroes appear (JLAers, Superman, Batman, WW, GL, etc, but this isn't their movie so they're supporting characters who are doing things off screen mostly), Wally is more seasoned as Kid Flash now, Barry in the end makes the ultimate sacrifice, a very young Wally gets The Flash ring/suit, it's the last scene in the movie, it's revealed that Barry is the lightning bolt that hit himself, giving him powers in the first place, he "becomes" it when he sacrifices himself going several 100 times faster than the speed of light, faster than he's ever gone to stop The Anti-Moniter, becoming pure energy).

This sets it up for a film series down the line or potential tv series and they can do it like the Star Wars films in a way and use the "original" trilogy as the background/basis for it and have a "new" ("prequel" but NOT "prequel" trilogy if we're talking in Star Wars terms) with Wally, in the third film of the Wally series, have Barry Allen return/Wally bring him back or 'save' him or whatever and they all live happily ever after; Jay, the alternate reality Flash, Barry, the 'original' Flash, Wally, the torch bearer, and Impulse/Bart, the symbol of the future speedsters.

 

[SKSpawn]

Personally, I'd like to see The Flash as a legacy film that sets up the superhero mythology of the shared DC Movieverse. Have an aging Jay Garrick be present and relate his experiences as part of the 1940s Justice Society and act as a mentor, of sorts, to Barry Allen (let's face it, given DC Comics' love for Barry these days, it's going to be Barry in the film), who is maybe not taking his newly-acquired powers seriously or appreciating them, or using them at all.

I think it'd be good to have the Reverse-Flash as the primary villain, but call him Professor Zoom, because "Reverse-Flash" sounds really ridiculous and as though he's leeching off of the Flash's success. Admittedly, "Professor Zoom" isn't much better, so maybe just stick with "Edward Clariss" (or even the Rival). Anywhoo, the plot should reflect this "legacy" thing I'm talking about, and have Clariss, who hounded Garrick in the past, return to wreck havoc and revenge on Garrick, forcing him out of retirement. Garrick's sacrifice (whether his losses at Clariss's hands or if he dies to save Barry) should be used to teach Barry how to become a superhero and assume the mantle of the Flash to combat Clariss and win the day. The film should end with the suggestion of others who can tap in to the Speed Force to set up a sequel that introduces a young Wally as Kid-Flash.

This way we can kind of flesh out the idea that superheroes existed in the DC Movieverse before Man of Steel, but only during the 1940s/World War II, and have died out since. The presentation of that era, Garrick, and the movie as a whole should reflect, I think, the Minutemen era of seen in Snyder's Watchmen; sepia tones, kinda goofy costumes, a more colourful, camp atmosphere, and introduce the idea that Clariss changed the good-natured atmosphere of superheroism by making it personal. This not only establishes a rich DC Movieverse, but also allows the possibility of a 1940s era Justice Society movie (personally, I feel the JSA should have stayed in the 1940s and only exist as aged veterans in modern comics, whose powers are unreliable and their experience, knowledge, and wisdom are used to help new, younger superheroes, rather than them being constantly active because of this irrational love of the Silver Age).

 

[Kevin Smith]

Pretty sure Superman is the first superhero in the DC Movie U and there should only be one Flash to start with. Keep Jay in a separate reality since he has next to nothing to do with Barry Allen becoming The Flash. Be as streamlined as possible.

Reverse Flash should be referred to as Thawne or Professor Thawne, then Reverse Flash.

Bad idea to set one guy up the whole movie then ditch him in the sequel like you're suggesting,

 

[The Guard]

As a counter argument, let me ask this, was it a mistake to have Ra's Al Ghul be the villain in Batman begins and save Joker the Dark Knight? The door swings both ways, sometimes its best to use the nemesis first and some times its best to save them for a later film.

No, but then Ra’s Al Ghul IS arguably Batman’s best, most relevant, and most complex villain. The Joker is his arch enemy, certainly, but I think they did lead with their best in many respects. Which is obviously why they came back to that in TDKR.

Really Flash should start out less powerful and get more powerful as the series goes on, so he has a learning curve and can't defeat his enemies with ease. If you already have Flash face his most powerful enemy in the first movie, he is going to walk all over the next villain, unless you have massive amounts of plot induced stupidity, as often happens in the comics.

That’s a good idea. And consider that in some ways, Thawne is essentially a rookie villain anyway. If he’s not the villain, then his presence at least needs to be felt, in terms of the sense of mystery behind “where the hell did these people get this technology” and why are they here?

Its like having the FF face and defeat Galactus in the first movie and then trying to have Mole Man or the Frightful Four in the next film, it doesn't work and messes up any sense of progression in the series.

But I’m not advocating for someone on the level of Moleman.

I’m also not talking just physical scale or power levels here. I’m not talking scale of story/relevance to the mythology as it escalates, and the meaning of the villains to Central City, and the world at large escalating from film to film.

Plus Reserve Flash's quest to destroy Flash's life is less compelling when we only see Flash's life for 30 minutes before Reverse Flash tries to destroy it, its more engaging to set up Flash's life in the first film, have the sub plot with say Barry Allen beginning to date Iris west in the first film and have them be a couple in the second film, where Reverse Flash goes after her. Reverse Flash targeting Barry Allen will have more of an impact if we get all the set up with his life done in the first film.

I think it can go either way, really. If it’s written well, it will be compelling regardless.

I could certainly live with The Rogues being his first villains, as long as Thawne was pulling the strings in a sense. Actually, now that I think about it, that might work better in an origin film anyway. The film concept I was proposing wasn’t so much an origin film as it would detail Barry Allen’s life
and introduce Wally West to the story to become The Flash in a second film.

The only major issue I see with having The Rogues as the villains in the first film is that with all the Flash setup, they’re likely to be seriously
underdeveloped as a group. Although a Flash origin could always have something of a “learning to become heroes and villains” angle to it, that could work and be an interesting angle on the "origin" film.

The legacy aspect of The Flash only became prevalent when Wally West became The Flash. It wasn't at all what the silver age Flash was about, same for GL, neither of which were created to be that (except maybe GL in a sense since his story literally began with him taking over for his predecessor and inheriting his powers from him).

Jay Garrick has been relevant to Barry Allen’s legacy pretty much since Barry first appeared.

The Flash was about crazy psuedo science and criminals and a guy who ran fast before it ever was about "legacy" and "family".

Right, but that’s because comics weren’t terribly deep and thematically important back then. Once story and thematics became more important, family and legacy became incredibly important, the bottom line is, its now part of Flash’s mythology, and a core part of it.

The Flash needs to be about speed and its various forms and what that means, save the legacy stuff for later on down the line after people care about The Flash so they can care about the legacy. IMO, that's the best way to go.

Why on Earth can’t it be about both?

You’ve got to incorporate what makes these characters unique, not just that they have powers. Part of what makes Flash unique is his work through various eras, the legacy, and his ongoing myth.

And I really want the Rogues to be established as threatening and dangerous in their own right, individually, without needing to be a team to beat The Flash.

I think that’s not going to happen, not on a film by film basis at least. It makes sense that they would begin as individuals and then develop into a team within a single film.

The problem with the GREEN LANTERN movie was the horrendous writing and a director who failed to get the character, but it was mostly the horrendous writing that killed it. The characters were not the problem, but rather their poor portrayals were. The first draft of the script was fantastic and would have made a great movie, and it had much of the same characters that were in the film, it was just a much better, much more exciting and engaging script than the end result film itself.

I have no idea how Martin Campbell somehow didn’t “get” the character of Green Lantern.

The first script was solid. It wasn’t, qualitywise, really that much better than the final product. It had more action and a slightly better take on the Hal/Martin Jordan relationship. That’s about it. It had some serious flaws itself, most notably the portrayal of Tom, Hector Hammond's dialogue, and Carol wasn’t nearly as interesting or relevant a character.

I think it'd be good to have the Reverse-Flash as the primary villain, but call him Professor Zoom, because "Reverse-Flash" sounds really ridiculous and as though he's leeching off of the Flash's success. Admittedly, "Professor Zoom" isn't much better, so maybe just stick with "Edward Clariss" (or even the Rival).

I don’t see why he’d need to be called anything, really. The idea is apparent enough. He’s an imposter Flash of sorts.

This way we can kind of flesh out the idea that superheroes existed in the DC Movieverse before Man of Steel, but only during the 1940s/World War II, and have died out since.

I do think that this is the strength of the Flash legacy. Being able to introduce the concept of the Justice Society in a sense to the DC movie Universe.

I feel the JSA should have stayed in the 1940s and only exist as aged veterans in modern comics, whose powers are unreliable and their experience, knowledge, and wisdom are used to help new, younger superheroes.

Ooh, I like that.

 

[GREEN =w= DAY]

you guys think that WB would go with Barry Allen or Wally West?

because here is a crazy idea that i think might work. if they go with Wally West i can actually see Sean William Scott (AKA Stiffler) playing the part. he's about the right age, in great shape, and has about the same characteristics as Wally.

 

[Kevin Smith]

I could certainly live with The Rogues being his first villains, as long as Thawne was pulling the strings in a sense. Actually, now that I think about it, that might work better in an origin film anyway. The film concept I was proposing wasn’t so much an origin film as it would detail Barry Allen’s life
and introduce Wally West to the story to become The Flash in a second film.

Why? People just got introduced to Barry Allen as Flash and they're changing guard already? This makes zero sense, it would be much better to further develop the character of who you already hooked audiences on.

Jay Garrick has been relevant to Barry Allen’s legacy pretty much since Barry first appeared.

Only as a comic book, a work of fiction Barry read, and that's it. It is not the same thing as Barry Allen taking over for the Jay Garrick Flash or carrying on his "legacy". Barry Allen was the self contained start of something new. Jay Garrick to Barry Allen is NOT as Barry Allen is to Wally West by a longshot.

Barry's story can and has been told without the use of Jay Garrick. He's about as important to Barry Allen as Alan Scott is to Hal Jordan.

Right, but that’s because comics weren’t terribly deep and thematically important back then.

And if they were back then, "legacy" would not have been a theme they'd have explored in Barry Allen's book. They'd have delved into his individual psychology and his personal/work life (as they should have in the "modern" age.)

Once story and thematics became more important, family and legacy became incredibly important, the bottom line is, its now part of Flash’s mythology, and a core part of it.

Only because it was essential to Wally as a character and his defining trait. If it were Barry Allen who headlined the book that would not have been the case, The Flash is not The Phantom and the "family" and "legacy" aspects as introduced to enhance the former Kid Flash Flash can be taken or left with the Barry Allen storyarc; they are not essential to him as being The Flash. I also see no reason why a story about a guy who runs fast abd deals with all the aforementioned themes canNOT be thematic or deep or important.

Why on Earth can’t it be about both?

because you can't just shove in the audience's face that something is important without building up "WHY" it's important, and I feel that attempting to do both at the same time will be a great mistake in that it will be very, very rushed and condensed. The Flash should be cared about as much as Batman, so when his "legacy" goes on people are very invested in it, the best way to do that is individually and to not bite off more than audiences can chew. You do the characters a disservice by doing such, and the audience, who I am not underestimating.

You’ve got to incorporate what makes these characters unique, not just that they have powers. Part of what makes Flash unique is his work through various eras, the legacy, and his ongoing myth.

Yeah, I didn't say it was just his powers that made him unique, there are many things, including his personal life that make him different from many other characters. The "legacy" aspect is interesting but should be used later down the line after they have done a Flash trilogy, they will have the next series set up for themselves, it would be brilliant. And unlike John Blake as Batman, having a new series post Barry Allen with Kid Flash as The Flash would be a very welcome, natural progression in line with the comics.

I think that’s not going to happen, not on a film by film basis at least. It makes sense that they would begin as individuals and then develop into a team within a single film.

I see no reason why they must be played for laughs and ineffectual, toothless threats individually. They should have the same reverence that Batman and Spider-Man's villains get and done with the same seriousness.

I have no idea how Martin Campbell somehow didn’t “get” the character of Green Lantern.

You and me both.

The first script was solid. It wasn’t, qualitywise, really that much better than the final product.

I disagree, it was much better than the final product quality wise, IMO.

It had more action and a slightly better take on the Hal/Martin Jordan relationship. That’s about it. It had some serious flaws itself, most notably the portrayal of Tom, Hector Hammond's dialogue, and Carol wasn’t nearly as interesting or relevant a character.

Hector Hammond was better and a lot better developed and all around more interesting, IMO, the character development for Hal was much better, and the action/set pieces and third act were a hundred times better than what we got in the final film, IMO.

I think it'd have been better if Berlanti directed it honestly, even though it would have been his first time directing a major film.

 

[Kevin Smith]

you guys think that WB would go with Barry Allen or Wally West?

Hoping Barry.

because here is a crazy idea that i think might work. if they go with Wally West i can actually see Sean William Scott (AKA Stiffler) playing the part. he's about the right age, in great shape, and has about the same characteristics as Wally.

Too old, and you must be thinking of the JL/JLU cartoon. Wally in the comics is a much better, more rounded, and serious character. I don't think SWS has the kind of depth needed to play him.

 

[spidergeek232]

Kevin, I was wondering, what is you're full cast for the Flash since we know you'd like Gosling for the role.

 

[The Guard]

Why? People just got introduced to Barry Allen as Flash and they're changing guard already? This makes zero sense, it would be much better to further develop the character of who you already hooked audiences on.

Why? Well, partially because I suspect we would likely see Barry Allen as The Flash in a Justice League franchise before we ever get a solo film, so hopefully they already kind of know The Flash. Obviously it will depend on the circumstances. I'm trying to be realistic.

Why do it early on in his solo franchise? Because its an important aspect, and one that can be introduced and left open for later development and resolution. And honestly, because I don't think there's any guarantee we'd ever see a sequel, and I'd rather introduce some of the more interesting ideas in the mythos VS chancing not seeing them at all.

Only as a comic book, a work of fiction Barry read, and that's it. It is not the same thing as Barry Allen taking over for the Jay Garrick Flash or carrying on his "legacy". Barry Allen was the self contained start of something new. Jay Garrick to Barry Allen is NOT as Barry Allen is to Wally West by a longshot.

Except that Jay wasn't just a character Barry read about in a comic, and even if he was, there was still an inspirational element there. But they actually met a couple of times, and even worked together. Barry was well aware he was actually carrying on a legacy a few years into his existence.

I never put a value judgement on it, or said it was somehow AS important as Barry/Wally (which should be the core of the film legacy, of course). I stated that the legacy angle was relevant, even in early Flash stories.

Only because it was essential to Wally as a character and his defining trait. If it were Barry Allen who headlined the book that would not have been the case, The Flash is not The Phantom and the "family" and "legacy" aspects as introduced to enhance the former Kid Flash Flash can be taken or left with the Barry Allen storyarc; they are not essential to him as being The Flash. I also see no reason why a story about a guy who runs fast abd deals with all the aforementioned themes canNOT be thematic or deep or important.

I don't think anyone said that a story just about The Flash and his basics can't be thematic, deep or important. I don't think anyone's even implied that.

The Flash may not be The Phantom, but he still has a very strong "legacy" aspect throughout his mythology as he exists now, especially after the introduction/reveal of the Speed Force and its elements. Does it have to be there? No. There are a number of things that don't HAVE to be there. But in most ways, the character tends to be better for them.

because you can't just shove in the audience's face that something is important without building up "WHY" it's important, and I feel that attempting to do both at the same time will be a great mistake in that it will be very, very rushed and condensed.

I'm not sure what you're referring to with randomly shoving things in the audience's face. I don't think introducing the idea that there is a speedster legacy, even in the context of an origin film, would be that big a deal. If you write it well, audiences will understand and accept its importance.

The Flash should be cared about as much as Batman, so when his "legacy" goes on people are very invested in it, the best way to do that is individually and to not bite off more than audiences can chew. You do the characters a disservice by doing such, and the audience, who I am not underestimating.

Batman, whose major themes and concepts were pretty much all introduced in his origin film to some extent, so that they could be further developed and explored in sequels?

You are going to have to explain to me how it does characters a disservice to show them and their legacies as more complex.

Yeah, I didn't say it was just his powers that made him unique, there are many things, including his personal life that make him different from many other characters. The "legacy" aspect is interesting but should be used later down the line after they have done a Flash trilogy, they will have the next series set up for themselves, it would be brilliant.

And that would be all well and good, but it's a bit naiive to believe that creators would have the luxury of assuming there will be three Flash films, and a second round of the franchise. Is the potential there? Sure. It's not a foregone conclusion.

And unlike John Blake as Batman, having a new series post Barry Allen with Kid Flash as The Flash would be a very welcome, natural progression in line with the comics.

As would a sequel with Wally as The Flash. There's no set amount of films that the elements of the mythology must be spaced out over.

I see no reason why they must be played for laughs and ineffectual, toothless threats individually.

Umm...I don't think anyone wants that.

I disagree, it was much better than the final product quality wise, IMO.Hector Hammond was better and a lot better developed and all around more interesting, IMO, the character development for Hal was much better, and the action/set pieces and third act were a hundred times better than what we got in the final film, IMO.

It more or less had strengths the film script didn't have, but it also had weaknesses the film script didn't. If they'd have been able to combine the two approaches, GREEN LANTERN would have been incredible.

I'm not sure what development you're referring to that Hector Hammond received in the original draft. He's incredibly thinly written there, about as cliché a supervillain as they come. They just also made him a bank robber in addition to being a less than subtle misogynist creep. I don't really consider that development, because nothing about his character really changed appreciably due to those sequences as I recall.

 

[lixdexia]

Why? People just got introduced to Barry Allen as Flash and they're changing guard already? This makes zero sense, it would be much better to further develop the character of who you already hooked audiences on.

why can audiences not get hooked on wally? have you never seen a movie where the "hero" wasn't really the hero?

because you can't just shove in the audience's face that something is important without building up "WHY" it's important, and I feel that attempting to do both at the same time will be a great mistake in that it will be very, very rushed and condensed. The Flash should be cared about as much as Batman, so when his "legacy" goes on people are very invested in it, the best way to do that is individually and to not bite off more than audiences can chew. You do the characters a disservice by doing such, and the audience, who I am not underestimating.

and i should be living on a tropical island where beautiful and intelligent women outnumber the men 10 to 1 and no one wants for anything, but you fight with the army you have not the one you wish you had. wally simply has a more expansive emotional journey to explore, why deny a potential franchise that lead? i've always felt you should lead with your strongest material, and for the flash i feel that means showing the importance of legacy and family on the franchise. i think a good model for what i'd like to see for wally in an initial flash film would be john blake's role in the last batman film; he wasn't the focal point of the film, but he was plenty developed and understood to be the lead moving forward in the story. that leaves plenty of room for barry to have his costumed adventures in the first film.

 

[MrMaooz]

Do you guys think having Gorilla Grodd will be thought as a ripoff of the Apes franchise to the GA?

 

[Kevin Smith]

Why? Well, partially because I suspect we would likely see Barry Allen as The Flash in a Justice League franchise before we ever get a solo film, so hopefully they already kind of know The Flash. Obviously it will depend on the circumstances. I'm trying to be realistic.

Ah okay. I was going with the scenario where they do a Flash series or at least one solo film prior to JLA. That said, in an ideal world, they do at least two Flash movies before JLA, IMO.

Why do it early on in his solo franchise? Because its an important aspect, and one that can be introduced and left open for later development and resolution.

Which is why it works better after Barry Allen has been introduced and the audience has bought in and invested in him for a couple films. The "I'm taking over for another Flash" concept is only important to Wally and has nothing to do with Barry Allen therefore it doesn't need to be introduced in the Year One arc of Barry Allen.

And honestly, because I don't think there's any guarantee we'd ever see a sequel, and I'd rather introduce some of the more interesting ideas in the mythos VS chancing not seeing them at all.

The very fact that ALLLL those ideas would be introduced in that film may guarantee that there ISN'T a sequel.

Except that Jay wasn't just a character Barry read about in a comic, and even if he was, there was still an inspirational element there. But they actually met a couple of times, and even worked together. Barry was well aware he was actually carrying on a legacy a few years into his existence.

There was no Jay Garrick in our dimension as the normal story goes. Barry lived in our reality "earth 1", Jay lived in "Earth 2", Barry wasn't "carrying on" for anyone. Barry Allen didn't even encounter Jay Garrick until YEARS into his career, and when he did it was an accident when he discovered he could vibrate/shift between worlds, the first world he "visited" being Jay Garrick's. It turned out that in that reality the comic book characters Barry read about were real. There have been plenty of versions where Barry Allen has become The Flash uninspired by Jay Garrick at all, as a comic or not, including the New 52 version, which works fine for a movie, IMO. You seem to want the immediate post crisis version of The Flash on film from what I can tell, not what is the best way to do a Barry Allen or origin story for The Flash or even the first Flash series in general, IMO. That version of The Flash is merely another facet of his character and not the defining part by any means, The Flash never became about "legacy" and "family" until Wally became The Flash and Mark Waid started introducing other "fine additions" to The Flash "legacy" such as Barry Allen's evil twin brother (most fans hated this, myself included, fortunately this was retconned years ago).

I never put a value judgement on it, or said it was somehow AS important as Barry/Wally (which should be the core of the film legacy, of course). I stated that the legacy angle was relevant, even in early Flash stories.

The fact that Barry Allen looked at a comic and said "gee that's cool, I wish I could do that" does not make him a "legacy" character by any means nor make that a relevant theme to him at all. I'm sorry, but it was not there in early Flash stories at all. We will just have to agree to disagree, we clearly look at this differently.

The Flash may not be The Phantom, but he still has a very strong "legacy" aspect throughout his mythology as he exists now, especially after the introduction/reveal of the Speed Force and its elements. Does it have to be there? No.

"Legacy" defines Wally West; it does not define Barry Allen and therefore doesn't need to be a central theme in a Barry Allen origin movie. In fact, as he exists now, The Flash is very much exactly what he was in his inception; a self contained superhero with no real ties to previous versions and no "legacy" "Flash the 'family man'" aspects. That's how the first 2 films should be and the best way to go, IMO. Barry Allen generates the Speed Force, so again, no need to delve into the "I keep accidentally 'creating' speedsters throughout all of time and realities by running and generating enormous amounts of energy in the speed forece, so much so that it has to eject and find other beings with my similar sense of morality throughout all of time and space" thing in the first movie. Let Barry Allen figure this stuff out with himself and have the audience learn more about his powers as he does, a good way to do this would be in a second or third film where a child Wally gets struck with Barry's powers with Barry one day.

There are a number of things that don't HAVE to be there. But in most ways, the character tends to be better for them.

The only element of The Flash that doesn't need to be present in the first movie or two is "multiple speedsters" one. Everything else is pretty essential.

I'm not sure what you're referring to with randomly shoving things in the audience's face. I don't think introducing the idea that there is a speedster legacy, even in the context of an origin film, would be that big a deal. If you write it well, audiences will understand and accept its importance.

Did Batman start out as a "legacy" character? Did they try and sell you on the idea of a successor taking over for Batman from day one in any of the films? I know there's an "anyone can be Batman" theme in the films, but they didn't shoe horn someone else into his costume after setting and building him up after ONE film. So it should be with The Flash.

When you get down to it Green lantern is more of a legacy character than the Flash in a lot of ways since that is one of the core elements his character was founded on, what with getting the ring from Abin Sur and whatnot (what is it about rings and legacies anyway?)

Batman, whose major themes and concepts were pretty much all introduced in his origin film to some extent, so that they could be further developed and explored in sequels?

That's a very, very, VERY loose definition of what all is in Batman Begins, but nevertheless, they did not simply jump from Batman Begins to TDKR suddenly, they had TDK in there (which IMO doesn't follow BB as much as TDKR does, mostly because NO ONE TALKS ABOUT THE JOKER, but that's a topic for a different thread), and TDK is the best of the trilogy (IMO and the GA for that matter).

I'm saying they need to do a few Barry Allen films before delving into the adventures of his superpowered nephew/former sidekick. That just makes sense. Not an origin for Barry/The Flash and spend all this time establishing and setting up Barry as a character in a movie where he (presumably) only puts on the suit mid-way through and most likely isn't even called "the Flash" until the end, then to come in with a following movie and replace him with Wally early on, I would not like that.

You are going to have to explain to me how it does characters a disservice to show them and their legacies as more complex.

That's not what I was saying at all, I'm simply saying I don't think it's for the better that it's all shoehorned into the first film and it does the characters a disservice to condense them like that. There are so many things in Barry Allen's history that should be touched on and would make great films before going into his "death" so his boy wonder can run around in his pajamas.

And that would be all well and good, but it's a bit naiive to believe that creators would have the luxury of assuming there will be three Flash films, and a second round of the franchise. Is the potential there? Sure. It's not a foregone conclusion.

It's just as valid an idea as anyone else's at this point, and ideally, I think a Barry Allen trilogy would be the way to go, and then one with Wally down the line (could even be a tv show) based off the original Barry Allen films (see my Flash film series outline).

As would a sequel with Wally as The Flash. There's no set amount of films that the elements of the mythology must be spaced out over.

I think anything less than two does not do them justice, which is why I suggest "trilogy".

It more or less had strengths the film script didn't have, but it also had weaknesses the film script didn't. If they'd have been able to combine the two approaches, GREEN LANTERN would have been incredible.

The weaknesses in the script were better than the strengths the actual film had, IMO.

I'm not sure what development you're referring to that Hector Hammond received in the original draft. He's incredibly thinly written there, about as cliché a supervillain as they come. They just also made him a bank robber in addition to being a less than subtle misogynist creep. I don't really consider that development, because nothing about his character really changed appreciably due to those sequences as I recall.

They made him creepy and "evil" and someone you didn't feel sad/sorry for in the original draft. He's not really anything but sad to me in the actual film, outside of being the only remotely interesting character in it, yet ironically he contributes NOTHING to the film as far as the central characters go and the movie lags whenever he shows up, almost like an entirely different film, he very clearly should have been written out completely, IMO.

 

[Kevin Smith]

why can audiences not get hooked on wally? have you never seen a movie where the "hero" wasn't really the hero?

They can, but only AFTER they're "hooked" on THE FLASH first, and that concept is and should be Barry Allen. Everything works much better when The Flash and his basic vernacular and world are established before delving into the "post Flash" stuff with Wally West. By the time Wally became Flash people were already familiar with the world Barry Allen had established so Wally could build off of that, if you don't build that, you have nothing. Jumping right into Wally West without any of that does the characters as well as the audience a great disservice and robs the characters of their potential and potency. Make them care about The Flash, then it's easier to make them care about someone dressing up as him.

and i should be living on a tropical island where beautiful and intelligent women outnumber the men 10 to 1 and no one wants for anything,

Only, a good Flash (re: Barry Allen) film is a much more easier realized concept than your fantasy is, and with the right care and ideas, The Flash will and most certainly can be cared about and as important as Batman, Superman, Iron Man, Spider-Man, etc, that's a very realistic and attainable concept with the right minds behind it.

but you fight with the army you have not the one you wish you had. wally simply has a more expansive emotional journey to explore, why deny a potential franchise that lead?

Says you (I disagree completely, and Wally just had the most modern age writing because of the time he was written), but The Flash is so much more than "I'm taking over for my dead uncle", easily, it cuts everything so short to merely go into the series to do just that. That'd be like doing the Batman films just to set up John Blake.

The Flash is and has been more than that for years, in fact, the last ten years of Wally's run weren't even about that, it was about making him a Barry Allen clone (almost like what they did with Rayner).

i've always felt you should lead with your strongest material, and for the flash i feel that means showing the importance of legacy and family on the franchise.

I disagree in that that's the strongest material The Flash has to offer, period. The "legacy" and "family" aspect of The Flash is what bogged his books down for years and partially why he was in limbo for a while and then rebooted, and why they took Barry Allen's story and world and combined it into Wally's name and likeness in the JL/JLU show. Obviously it isn't that "strong" OR "defining" an "attribute" of The Flash when they can do a whole series with him as a prominent character and go out of their way to IGNORE it.

i think a good model for what i'd like to see for wally in an initial flash film would be john blake's role in the last batman film; he wasn't the focal point of the film, but he was plenty developed and understood to be the lead moving forward in the story. that leaves plenty of room for barry to have his costumed adventures in the first film.

Yes, but not JUST "the first film", one or two films at least, ideally 3, just like Batman, Superman, Spider-Man, Iron Man, etc. The focal point of the first "series" needs to be Barry Allen, then towards the end of 2, and certainly in the third film, they can lay the roadwork for Wally West to leave the sidekick business and become The Flash (and then have Barry return saved by Wally at the end of Wally's third film (Flash 6), ideally it would be 6 films, two trilogies (first one Barry, second one Wally), the last film ending with one big, happy Flash family (Jay from alternate reality as discovered by Barry Allen in Flash 2, Barry returned from the "beyond/Speed Force" in Flash 6, a grown up Wally now a seasoned hero (culmination of Wally trilogy), and Bart "Impulse" Allen with them in the present (as discovered by Wally in Flash 5, or part 2 of the Wally trilogy) to better learn how to deal with his powers, representing the future).

 

[Kevin Smith]

Kevin, I was wondering, what is you're full cast for the Flash since we know you'd like Gosling for the role.

I have a lot of ideas with this one but I will have to post them later due to time restraints haha.

(Ultimately though, as vast as some of the hype members' awareness of actors and actresses is, none of us have all the resources that the agencies and studios in the film biz do, so with that in mind, there may be people out there actually better than anyone on these forums has suggested, and naturally, I'd hope they'd go with them instead. Just a thought. t: )

 

[Kevin Smith]

Do you guys think having Gorilla Grodd will be thought as a ripoff of the Apes franchise to the GA?

While I'd make a reference to the movie in some way if I did Grodd, I think with the right execution it will be cool and very different to them in its own, I think comments are inevitable though, but with the right execution you can get people to "buy in" and approve.

 

[Kevin Smith]

Also, something I've noticed....the poll results (although only a 6 vote difference) would be more lopsided in Barry's favor were it started today than years ago when it was started. The poll at the top of the page was started waaaay back when Wally was still being published in the main title and more than half the people voting then didn't know anything about Barry Allen (poll was started in '06 IIRC) other than maybe his name. Even so, it's amazing how much the results are neck and neck with Barry only having been in comics again regularly for a few years now. Just my thoughts on that.

 

[aNarcHy2day]

What do you people make of Autumn Reeser as an actress? I have only watched her in No Ordinary Family where I thought she was pretty good and can do the damsel in distress role pretty well. I am looking to cast an 'Iris Allen' opposite my choice for Flash (Jake Gyllenhaal) and I think they LOOK a good pair.