TLS isnt really in continuity with X2

[flavio_lebeau]

The machine emits radiation in eletromagnetic form. It may affect cells, inducing mutantions (not THAT huge mutations in real life, like in Sen. Kelly, at most a cancer, but let's consider it does), right.

The psychic blocks aren't physical metalic barriers put onto Jean's brain, they're most probably a result of disabling of certain neural functions/activity somewhere on jean's cortex.

Now, the machine, once again I'm gonna say, emits ELETROMAGNETIC radiation. Neural activity is essentially electric. So Voila, yes, the machine could, somehow, restore the neural eletric activity on the dormant parts of her brain. Actually, it makes WAAAAAY more sense for such machine to cause the "destruction" of her mind blocks (actually a recovery of her neural activity) than to cause such drastic mutations on people.

 

[X-Maniac]

The machine emits radiation in eletromagnetic form. It may affect cells, inducing mutantions (not THAT huge mutations in real life, like in Sen. Kelly, at most a cancer, but let's consider it does), right.

The psychic blocks aren't physical metalic barriers put onto Jean's brain, they're most probably a result of disabling of certain neural functions/activity somewhere on jean's cortex.

Now, the machine, once again I'm gonna say, emits ELETROMAGNETIC radiation. Neural activity is essentially electric. So Voila, yes, the machine could, somehow, restore the neural eletric activity on the dormant parts of her brain. Actually, it makes WAAAAAY more sense for such machine to cause the "destruction" of her mind blocks (actually a recovery of her neural activity) than to cause such drastic mutations on people.

That's what I've been saying.

In effect, part of her mind was 'numbed' and made 'normal', like that of a normal baseline human. Xavier switched it off.

Then along came the radiation and reawakened it. In much the same way as Kelly's normal cells were artificially mutated, then Jean's 'switched off' brain area was stimulated into life.

There's an interesting scene in the now-published original ending of the Phoenix Saga, in which the galaxy's top psychics shut down the neural pathways in Jean's brain to cure her and stop the Phoenix power.

 

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Now, the machine, once again I'm gonna say, emits ELETROMAGNETIC radiation. Neural activity is essentially electric. So Voila, yes, the machine could, somehow, restore the neural eletric activity on the dormant parts of her brain. Actually, it makes WAAAAAY more sense for such machine to cause the "destruction" of her mind blocks (actually a recovery of her neural activity) than to cause such drastic mutations on people.

Sigh.

If I've said it once, I've said it a hundred times. t:

Could such a machine end up doing that? Yes.

Could such a machine built by bloody Mags end up doing that? I don't think so.

 

[flavio_lebeau]

Sigh.

If I've said it once, I've said it a hundred times. t:

Could such a machine end up doing that? Yes.

Could such a machine built by bloody Mags end up doing that? I don't think so.

Sigh...

He doesn't need to do anything? Eletromagnetic radiation was emmited, it wasn't necessary any knolwedge to do it...it was random. It's not like he foresaw the effects on someone's neural activity. He built a machine that sent radiation. Unfortunately and occasionaly, this radiation activated the dormant neurones on poor Jean. It's possible for such kind of radiation.

Do I see prejudice against poo' ol' Mags?

 

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Do I see prejudice against poo' ol' Mags?

The opposite, actually. t: I meant a machine built by him wouldn't end up doing that big of a random f**k up.

And hey, I never said I had the biggest argument in this very specific debate. I bloody know the machine scenario makes some sort of sense in an "tragic accident of fate" kind of way.

That's just me having a hard time with it. t:

Edit: Did any of my posts ever convey the notion that I hadn't jumped on the 'Magneto Pre-X3 Roxor' bandwagon a while back anyway? t:

 

[flavio_lebeau]

The opposite, actually. t: I meant a machine built by him wouldn't end up doing that big of a random f**k up.

And hey, I never said I had the biggest argument in this very specific debate. I bloody know the machine scenario makes some sort of sense in an "tragic accident of fate" kind of way.

That's just me having a hard time with it. t:

Edit: Did any of my posts ever convey the notion that I hadn't jumped on the 'Magneto Pre-X3 Roxor' bandwagon a while back anyway? t:

It wasn't on his conrol if that would happen to Jean...

blah, I get your point. [Magneto]ENOUGH![/Magneto]

 

[gambitfire]

The machine emits radiation in eletromagnetic form. It may affect cells, inducing mutantions (not THAT huge mutations in real life, like in Sen. Kelly, at most a cancer, but let's consider it does), right.

The psychic blocks aren't physical metalic barriers put onto Jean's brain, they're most probably a result of disabling of certain neural functions/activity somewhere on jean's cortex.

Now, the machine, once again I'm gonna say, emits ELETROMAGNETIC radiation. Neural activity is essentially electric. So Voila, yes, the machine could, somehow, restore the neural eletric activity on the dormant parts of her brain. Actually, it makes WAAAAAY more sense for such machine to cause the "destruction" of her mind blocks (actually a recovery of her neural activity) than to cause such drastic mutations on people.

Now say that to a professional and let them stare at you for a couple of minutes with this face.

lol j/k

 

[kg576094]

You need to develop your imagination and your interpretation and comprehension skills.

We've always been required to read information into little pieces of dialogue.

For instance, in X1, Xavier says 'Because he helped me build it' and that tells us an awful lot - that Magneto and Xavier once worked together for a common dream and that Magneto was once a much less bitter man who was perhaps at that school, that somehow they fell out...

In X2, 'You haven't been the same since Liberty Island' gives us a big clue about Jean's reaction at the end of X1, which many didn't notice or interpret to mean anything that significant. It tells us she changed somehow, that her powers/mutation are now very different.

As for the Multiple Man line, it was a friend who pointed out that he thought that line implied that MM and Mystique had somehow communicated. It's possible. And it's possible he escaped in the forest - he wouldn't feel obliged to transport himself to Alcatraz if he did escape.

You said i had an extraordinary talent. I agree. And i think you have a total lack of interpretational talent. If you need every detail spelling out in big bold letters, then I pity your view of the world. Open your mind!

X, u should stop insulting my intelligence
of coz I know what's a layered dialogue, like you say dialogues with reference to the comics or hints of a possible sequel plots and hidden plot pts.
but that line is simply a power introductionary line, and neither the director, writer, myself or the audience would care except you and your friend where Mystique got that information from, ...can be from the newspapers, a guard or yes like you say a pick-up conversation hinting at a booming romance
in fact no one would bother how MM was recruited if it wasn't so stupid that he was recruited for the sole purpose to be caught again when his skill is much better than hundreds of mutants that can only leap
The bottomline is that the line has no hint for anything unlike statement like something has happen or we did something together or deja vu like where had some other characters mouthed the same line before?
as for part 2 again, ya why didn't I think abt it, it cannot be mere coincidence that both Sabertooth and the toad chose to go AWOL at the same time if they're not dead so the director must be hinting something at a peculiar relationship between these two and i think they might be a pair of lovers hiding in Paris too...i'm becoming a genius already!

 

[kg576094]

Everyone should note that the mental block explanation had already been retconned in the comics
I think the reason why it was being retconned was in part that it doesn't even make sense in the comicsverse that Radiation can break mental blocks
WHY you may ask? Because the most noticeable and immediate effect of radiation is severe burns, therefore before the radiation could reach the critical areas of the brain to effect the mental blocks, the rays would have fried off all her skin, parts of her flesh and most of her brain material..not even wolverine with his healing factor can take such a damage more so than jean with no healing factor.
So, to me, it makes more sense that Jean made a deal with the devil on the blink of her death, whom then seals her damaged body in a cocoon for healing purposes while the phoenix duplicate her body to pilot the spaceship safely with her massive psychic shield.
There we have it, Radiations DO NOT break mental blocks neither in the Comics nor in the Movie.

 

[Theweepeople]

[

X, u should stop insulting my intelligence
of coz I know what's a layered dialogue, like you say dialogues with reference to the comics or hints of a possible sequel plots and hidden plot pts.
but that line is simply a power introductionary line, and neither the director, writer, myself or the audience would care except you and your friend where Mystique got that information from, ...can be from the newspapers, a guard or yes like you say a pick-up conversation hinting at a booming romance
in fact no one would bother how MM was recruited if it wasn't so stupid that he was recruited for the sole purpose to be caught again when his skill is much better than hundreds of mutants that can only leap
The bottomline is that the line has no hint for anything unlike statement like something has happen or we did something together or deja vu like where had some other characters mouthed the same line before?
as for part 2 again, ya why didn't I think abt it, it cannot be mere coincidence that both Sabertooth and the toad chose to go AWOL at the same time if they're not dead so the director must be hinting something at a peculiar relationship between these two and i think they might be a pair of lovers hiding in Paris too...i'm becoming a genius already!

I've been wondering since last May why Magneto added MM to his elite group just so he could cause a diversion that led to his capture and probable loss of mutant powers after the cure is administered on him. Also, why would MM show loyalty to someone(Magneto) he barely knew and didn't give a rat's ass about what happened to brotherhood members who got cured(Mystique)?

 

[Theweepeople]

Everyone should note that the mental block explanation had already been retconned in the comics
I think the reason why it was being retconned was in part that it doesn't even make sense in the comicsverse that Radiation can break mental blocks
WHY you may ask? Because the most noticeable and immediate effect of radiation is severe burns, therefore before the radiation could reach the critical areas of the brain to effect the mental blocks, the rays would have fried off all her skin, parts of her flesh and most of her brain material..not even wolverine with his healing factor can take such a damage more so than jean with no healing factor.
So, to me, it makes more sense that Jean made a deal with the devil on the blink of her death, whom then seals her damaged body in a cocoon for healing purposes while the phoenix duplicate her body to pilot the spaceship safely with her massive psychic shield.
There we have it, Radiations DO NOT break mental blocks neither in the Comics nor in the Movie.

Well, the main complaint I've always had about the mental block controversy is I still find it inconceivable that Xavier would do such a thing to one of his students. In X-Men 1/2 Xavier was consistently portrayed as a very wise and compassionate leader. X3 made Xavier look like an arrogant unreasonable doofus. I don't agree with the scientific explanations for the mental blocks but I have an easier time accepting them then the horrible storytelling.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I am sorry, I've kept you waiting long enough. But here I am, to reply to your questions.

In advance I will admit that some of what you posted is in fact, bad writing. I will specify where I agree with that line of thinking.



He obviously had to have stowed away, that's the only explanation. He overheard the X-Men talking about Alcatraz, and Magneto marching his army there. He went to go save his father.

I've heard people talking about the complex security systems that Angel would have had to have gotten past;

The same systems that activated when Wolverine was running around the subbasement when the X-Men first found him?

The same systems that activated when Mystique was on the mansion property?

The same systems that activated when Stryker and his men raided the mansion?

There are security systems in the comic books. Security systems are not ever established to exist in the movie verse, so we cannot just assume that they exist.

While we are never shown Angel getting on board the X-Jet, it should also be known that it would be physically impossible for a human being to fly as fast as a super sonic jet. By process of elimination, we come to the conclussion that he stowed away.

Now, it definatley could have been handled better. Ratner wanted a moment of surprise, but it didn't work. As my friend calls it, it was a "dues ex machina". So while it was bad writing in the sense that it wasn't properly explained, there is an explanation for it.

Well it him getting past the security systems that bothered me, its the fact that he found the jet and was able to hide himself inside all during the time it took the X-Men to get their suits, which i doubt would take long.

The same way he moved from place to place in X-Men, and X2. Just because you're a known fugitive doesn't mean you can't hide. Osama Bin Laden is a world-wide known terrorist, and he seems to move around and hide pretty well. And he doesn't have the luxury of being a fictional character, living in a fictional world, where unknown amounts of resources would be available to him. It is completely feasable that Magneto could move around undetected, even being a national fugitive.

But in X1 and 2 he was moving around with 3/4 people at most, at the end of X3, he had 50-100 people with him! Bit of a difference.

Bad writing, and it's one of the scenes that I have always had problems with.



Arguably bad writing.

The only non-"bad writing" explanation I can come up with is the fact that when Jean rose, her true conciousness was weak, and her primal side, Phoenix, was able to take over. I don't believe the death was an accident, as the facial expression on Phoenix showed that she knew what she was doing. Why, I haven't been able to figure out, so in the end, I just chalk it up to bad writing.

Agreed on all of those, they were all poor writing IMO, especially Scott's death.

Tactically, you don't waste your "secret weapon" first. Magneto didn't realize that the weapons were plastic. With them being metal, his army could have raided Alcatraz, and he could have destroyed the humans' weapons. He was obviously caught off guard by this. Once Arclight destroyed the weapons, the Brotherhood again started to make progress, but the X-Men then showed up. At this point, it was time for Magneto to pull out the big guns. That is when he started launching cars.

It's called tactics. You don't blow your load first thing. You save it, until it's absolutley needed. If Magneto would have just wasted the cars, then sure, perhaps the military would have been weakened quicker, but then he wouldn't have that weapon against a larger threat, which turned out to be the X-Men.

Yes but had he used the cars, when the X-Men arrived he still would have a his WHOLE army to attack them with.

Because they were focused on a battle at hand, not stuff that may or may not be flying through the air.

All 3 movies have shown that Magneto can detect metal objects around him. Even in X3, when he is focused on giving his speech to the army in the woods, he still detects Wolverine "I can smell you adamantium from a mile away!"

To me, it is clear from the beginning that he is always comfortable being a mutant, it's his father whom he is worried about. As a child, he only wants to please his father, so he tries to cut off his wings.

As an adult, he thinks he wants to please his father, and agrees to the procedure, but when he's actually faced with it happening, he realizes it's not what HE wants.

It's kind of like how criminals will plead "not guilty" to a crime, but when they are in the courtroom, and actually see the jury and such, they change their mind, and plead guily. It happens quite often. I was almost selected to sit on a jury, until the guilty parties finally changed their mind and plead guilty.

Given that human actions and emotions AREN'T formulaic, it is completely reasonable to assume that during the conversation with his father, Angel decided to take the cure. But when he was faced with actually not being a mutant anymore, he realized it wasn't what he really wanted.

Possibly, but it would have been nice to see what made him love being a mutant, like show a scene of him saving someone's life that he wouldnt be able to without his wings or something like that.

The same reason why Rogue is all of a sudden able to control her powers when she's hanging on to Pyro's leg for a couple minutes, putting out his fires in X2, but barely a touch of the lips for 3 seconds put her boyfriend into a coma for 3 weeks in X-Men. It's a movie; a piece of fiction, and the progress of the story takes precedence over consistency and logic at times.

This is completely different Nell IMO, as it is obvious that Rogue has been getting lessons on how to better control her powers from the moment she went to the mansion.

While I agree that Wolverine's healing was -faster- than it was before, it wasn't at such an unrealistic rate that it's unfathomable.

I chalk this complaint up to X3 bashers just looking for yet another thing to ***** about.

I think it is a genuine complaint and not something that basher love to just ***** about. Wolverine NEVER heals that fast, even in the rest of X3, its like they just suddenly decided to make Wolverine able to take on a goddess and come off best just for the sake of it, its stupid and poor film-making IMO, and the easy way out also IMO.

I hope you do, because quite frankly, I'm tired of the X3 bashers just dismissing everything I have to say because it doesn't fit with their blind bashing of the movie.

Surely you know by now that i'm no senseless basher Nell, i am just a movie fan (even more so than an X-Men fan) who thinks that from the first moment this movie was put into development, they just took the easy way out on things. IMO Fox or anyone else involved did not treat us, the fans, with the respect we deserve.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Well it him getting past the security systems that bothered me, its the fact that he found the jet and was able to hide himself inside all during the time it took the X-Men to get their suits, which i doubt would take long.

He just would have followed behind, stealth-like.

It's not unfathomable for me.

But in X1 and 2 he was moving around with 3/4 people at most, at the end of X3, he had 50-100 people with him! Bit of a difference.

A fictional character with the unlimited resources of being a fictional character can find a way to move undetected across the country when real life fugitives the world over can move around the world undetected.

Agreed on all of those, they were all poor writing IMO, especially Scott's death.

Then there is nothing left to discuss here

Yes but had he used the cars, when the X-Men arrived he still would have a his WHOLE army to attack them with.

A bunch of untrained civilians essentially, against well trained soldiers...

The X-Men would have pwn3d the Brotherhood, and Magneto knew it.

All 3 movies have shown that Magneto can detect metal objects around him. Even in X3, when he is focused on giving his speech to the army in the woods, he still detects Wolverine "I can smell you adamantium from a mile away!"

As far as actual -detection-, I think we only see that in 3. Perhaps I'm wrong though, it's been awhile since I'm watched any of the 3 movies.

Still, Magneto has never been in the middle of a war like this before in the movie verse. It is completely reasonable for me to assume that he'd have been distracted by the task at hand, and wasn't focusing on planes that may or may not be flying into the area.

Possibly, but it would have been nice to see what made him love being a mutant, like show a scene of him saving someone's life that he wouldnt be able to without his wings or something like that.

You're right, it would have helped, but there -is- an explanation for what happened. It just wasn't handled in the best way, and I agree that there should have been more to Angel's arc.

This is completely different Nell IMO, as it is obvious that Rogue has been getting lessons on how to better control her powers from the moment she went to the mansion.

It's not obvious, we never see her "training" her powers. I mean, she is still afraid to kiss Bobby throughout the entire movie because she might hurt him, but all of a sudden she's okay draining Pyro.

And the whole point of Rogue's powers is that she -CAN'T- control them.

I don't buy the "she's been learning to control them" when from the beginning of X2 we see her unwilling to so much as touch Bobby because she might hurt him (which would imply she HASN'T had any progress in controlling her powers) but all of a sudden at Bobby's house, she TWICE uses her powers without causing harm to anyone when she put her first boyfriend in a coma for 3 weeks for her lips barely grazing against his.

I think it is a genuine complaint and not something that basher love to just ***** about. Wolverine NEVER heals that fast, even in the rest of X3, its like they just suddenly decided to make Wolverine able to take on a goddess and come off best just for the sake of it, its stupid and poor film-making IMO, and the easy way out also IMO.

I still don't see it being any worse than Rogue's convenience power upgrade in X2.

Surely you know by now that i'm no senseless basher Nell, i am just a movie fan (even more so than an X-Men fan) who thinks that from the first moment this movie was put into development, they just took the easy way out on things. IMO Fox or anyone else involved did not treat us, the fans, with the respect we deserve.

I know you aren't like that, I was using that in more of the general sense. I think my frustrations with many of the residents of this community is pretty obvious. My frustrations don't include you. You and I may disagree on how the movie was handled, but I haven't seen any behavior from you that would have me frustrated with you. So I apologize if you thought that was about you, it wasn't, just in general.

I'm not even in complete disagreement about your statement that Fox "took the easy way out". I may be overall happy with the final result, but I am not 100% happy with the film or how Fox handled it. Not at all. I may think many people over-react to the situation regarding Fox and the creative team, but I'm not in complete disagreement with the beliefs that are the foundation of that over-reaction.

 

[X-Maniac]

X, u should stop insulting my intelligence
of coz I know what's a layered dialogue, like you say dialogues with reference to the comics or hints of a possible sequel plots and hidden plot pts.
but that line is simply a power introductionary line, and neither the director, writer, myself or the audience would care except you and your friend where Mystique got that information from, ...can be from the newspapers, a guard or yes like you say a pick-up conversation hinting at a booming romance
in fact no one would bother how MM was recruited if it wasn't so stupid that he was recruited for the sole purpose to be caught again when his skill is much better than hundreds of mutants that can only leap
The bottomline is that the line has no hint for anything unlike statement like something has happen or we did something together or deja vu like where had some other characters mouthed the same line before?
as for part 2 again, ya why didn't I think abt it, it cannot be mere coincidence that both Sabertooth and the toad chose to go AWOL at the same time if they're not dead so the director must be hinting something at a peculiar relationship between these two and i think they might be a pair of lovers hiding in Paris too...i'm becoming a genius already!

Well, MM wasn't recruited 'for the sole purpose of being caught again.' It just so happened that he was used as a decoy, but there's no way Magneto could have known he was on that prison truck, so he didn't plan to use him that way from the outset. Besides, using him as a decoy was a good use of his power, showing what he was capable of. He was portrayed as having a very carefree, happy-go-lucky attitude, with his 'I'm in' line and staring at Mystique's booty! He seemed to be the sort who just went along for the ride, did things for the hell of it. There was obviously an attempt to show he had this kind of personality.

Yes, he and Juggs joined the Brotherhood a bit quickly, perhaps too quickly, and it might have been nice to see more dialogue, say Magneto saying 'In return for the freedom I've given you, would you consider joining my cause to fight this cure that threatens us all?'.

But that didn't happen and I'm reminded to some extent of the casual way that Magneto/Mystique form an alliance with the X-Men in X2. It was done without much discussion or tension (apart from Rogue on the X-jet).

However, what's done is done and if you don't like that scene with Multiple Man, then so be it. Return to your fantasies of Toad and Sabretooth loving it up in Paris.

 

[X-Maniac]

Everyone should note that the mental block explanation had already been retconned in the comics
I think the reason why it was being retconned was in part that it doesn't even make sense in the comicsverse that Radiation can break mental blocks
WHY you may ask? Because the most noticeable and immediate effect of radiation is severe burns, therefore before the radiation could reach the critical areas of the brain to effect the mental blocks, the rays would have fried off all her skin, parts of her flesh and most of her brain material..not even wolverine with his healing factor can take such a damage more so than jean with no healing factor.
So, to me, it makes more sense that Jean made a deal with the devil on the blink of her death, whom then seals her damaged body in a cocoon for healing purposes while the phoenix duplicate her body to pilot the spaceship safely with her massive psychic shield.
There we have it, Radiations DO NOT break mental blocks neither in the Comics nor in the Movie.

Your reasoning about radiation causing severe burns is sheer nonsense in a sci-fi movie, especially since no-one exposed to Magneto's radiation suffered any burns. So we can throw that garbage out immediately. That doesn't apply here, as we saw.

I'm not sure where you are getting all this stuff from. The Phoenix backstory has changed many times in the comics. Originally, Jean evolved into Phoenix during a solar radiation storm, her power proved too great so her own mind put in psionic barriers (causing her power to cut out at the worst moments), she became Dark Phoenix and Xavier put psionic barriers in her mind to contain her power, the barriers failed and she killed herself.

Later on, in order to bring back Jean Grey into the comics, it was retconned that the real Jean Grey was in a cocoon under the bay and her place had been taken by the Phoenix which created a duplicate body. When that Jean Grey returned, she was not the Phoenix and was much less powerful (the same power levels as before she became Phoenix).

But the writers later wanted her to become Phoenix again so it was retconned that Jean was always meant to be Phoenix, to wield the Phoenix force.

A new version of Jean's origin showed her powers emerging when her friend died and Xavier putting in mental blocks to contain her powers. This is why the original Marvel Girl was a weak telekinetic with no telepathic powers.

Pieces of all these events have made it into the movies - the original weak Jean; the mental blocks placed there by Xavier; the radiation; the cocoon under the water.

There are deleted scenes in X1 in which Jean tells Xavier her powers are expanding all the time, and in which Logan asks Jean if Xavier is holding her back, so we can be pretty sure that Bryan Singer's ideas for the character included the concept of her having some sort of hidden power.
Bryan tends to hint at things rather than spell them out and make them crystal clear and inarguable - some call it subtlety, some call it vagueness. In fact he himself calls it vague these days (SR's vague history). There is much greater conflict in the revelation of Xavier having held back her powers. All that's 'missing' in X3 really is a line to tie in the breakdown of the blocks to Magneto's machine. But we did have a line referring to Liberty Island in X2.

For the general audience they went with a concept of 'she's back and she's bad'...and I've never heard or read of any mainstream viewer or critic whining about the mental blocks explanation, Xavier's meddling or wanting more explanation than we already got. Slightly clunky dialogue about 'cocoons of telekinetic energy' prove that trying to make everything clear and factual can make it sound corny and hokey. No one in the movie would really know that it was the machine that broke the blocks, even Scott wasn't sure what was happening in X2. This was Jean's own private turmoil.

I'd have liked a tighter explanation that cleared it up without doubt, but I can kind of see why they didn't bore us with long exposition that related back to the first movie six years earlier.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Well, MM wasn't recruited 'for the sole purpose of being caught again.' It just so happened that he was used as a decoy, but there's no way Magneto could have known he was on that prison truck, so he didn't plan to use him that way from the outset. Besides, using him as a decoy was a good use of his power, showing what he was capable of. He was portrayed as having a very carefree, happy-go-lucky attitude, with his 'I'm in' line and staring at Mystique's booty! He seemed to be the sort who just went along for the ride, did things for the hell of it. There was obviously an attempt to show he had this kind of personality.

Yes, he and Juggs joined the Brotherhood a bit quickly, perhaps too quickly, and it might have been nice to see more dialogue, say Magneto saying 'In return for the freedom I've given you, would you consider joining my cause to fight this cure that threatens us all?'.

But that didn't happen and I'm reminded to some extent of the casual way that Magneto/Mystique form an alliance with the X-Men in X2. It was done without much discussion or tension (apart from Rogue on the X-jet).

However, what's done is done and if you don't like that scene with Multiple Man, then so be it. Return to your fantasies of Toad and Sabretooth loving it up in Paris.

The difference between Magneto and Mystique joining the X-Men in X2 is the fact that 1. The 2 parties know each other already and 2. It is explained in full why exactly Magneto is seeking out the help of the X-Men, and why they need to work together, because Mystique knows the plans for the new Cerebro, and Nightcrawler, who is with the X-Men, knows the location of the base. Stryker poses a common threat to both the X-Men, and the Brotherhood, so working together is going to be mutually beneficial over working alone.

You cannot compare how Magneto and Mystique joined the X-Men in X2 to the way that Multiple Man and Juggernaut joined the team in X-Men: The Last Stand. Why Magneto and Mystique would join the X-Men is explored in X2, why Multiple Man and Juggernaut would join the Brotherhood is not explaind in X-Men: The Last Stand.

 

[X-Maniac]

The difference between Magneto and Mystique joining the X-Men in X2 is the fact that 1. The 2 parties know each other already and 2. It is explained in full why exactly Magneto is seeking out the help of the X-Men, and why they need to work together, because Mystique knows the plans for the new Cerebro, and Nightcrawler, who is with the X-Men, knows the location of the base. Stryker poses a common threat to both the X-Men, and the Brotherhood, so working together is going to be mutually beneficial over working alone.

You cannot compare how Magneto and Mystique joined the X-Men in X2 to the way that Multiple Man and Juggernaut joined the team in X-Men: The Last Stand. Why Magneto and Mystique would join the X-Men is explored in X2, why Multiple Man and Juggernaut would join the Brotherhood is not explaind in X-Men: The Last Stand.

Oh but I can compare. Magneto and Mystique and the X-Men joined forces with not much real drama or tension (aside from Rogue taking her glove off on the jet). Considering what Magneto and Mystique and their associates tried to do in X1, the two sides forged an alliance pretty quickly. The movie didn't take time to explore the frictions and tensions and doubts of two sides working together to a great extent. Also, Nightcrawler was not needed to know the location of the base (Wolverine knew where Alkali Lake was) and to be honest Mystique and Magneto weren't strictly 'needed' either, though they proved their usefulness many times! I got the feeling the film (X2) was being 'moved along' to its next section at that point. There is a similar feeling in X3 on that prison truck - I'll give you that their reasons aren't stated explicitly as in X2 though. It could have been done better in X3 for sure. I'm surprised Ian McKellen didn't raise the point with the writers/director. But what's done is done.

 

[Theweepeople]

I would be very amused if someone tried to explain how it makes sense for Xavier to put mental blocks on a mutant(Jean) that could be potentially dangerous in the future but, did not consider doing the same thing with a mutant(Jason Styker) he knew was dangerous.t:

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

I would be very amused if someone tried to explain how it makes sense for Xavier to put mental blocks on a mutant(Jean) that could be potentially dangerous in the future but, did not consider doing the same thing with a mutant(Jason Styker) he knew was dangerous.t:

Because Jean's powers were subconcious, where she could easily lose control over them. People do not have control over their subconcious minds. Xavier does not just go around blocking off everyone's powers of who may or may not be a threat. But when a mutant, who is a student of his, could very easily lose control of very destructive powers, even Xavier has to realize the "greater good" of isolating said powers, and helping that student to learn to control her powers to a point where she could fully control them without the aid of the mental blocks.

It is never established that Jason Stryker's powers are subconcious, so they are always within his control.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Oh but I can compare. Magneto and Mystique and the X-Men joined forces with not much real drama or tension (aside from Rogue taking her glove off on the jet). Considering what Magneto and Mystique and their associates tried to do in X1, the two sides forged an alliance pretty quickly. The movie didn't take time to explore the frictions and tensions and doubts of two sides working together to a great extent. Also, Nightcrawler was not needed to know the location of the base (Wolverine knew where Alkali Lake was) and to be honest Mystique and Magneto weren't strictly 'needed' either, though they proved their usefulness many times! I got the feeling the film (X2) was being 'moved along' to its next section at that point. There is a similar feeling in X3 on that prison truck - I'll give you that their reasons aren't stated explicitly as in X2 though. It could have been done better in X3 for sure. I'm surprised Ian McKellen didn't raise the point with the writers/director. But what's done is done.

Wolverine knew where Alkali Lake was, yes, but he did not know of the base there. Nobody knew where Stryker's base was at, except Nightcrawler, subconciously, because it was in his memory. His memory was not wiped like Wolverine's was. So yea, Nightcrawler was, in fact, needed.

Magneto and Mystique were needed because they were the ones who knew of Stryker's plans. They knew that Stryker was the one setting up this global threat, and it was only when presented with the information that Magneto and Mystique had aquired that the X-Men had anything that they could act on.

Both parties needed each other.

As far as tensions, I felt some tensions. Personally, Rogue was the only one that Magneto tried to kill, and he and Mystique made a joke about it. Rogue isn't as mature or professional as Storm, Jean, Wolverine, etc... and she gets set off easier, being a teenager. I'm sure you know all about that, having been a teenager yourself, as we all have been.

And I did feel some tensions. Particularly when Magneto explains that he gave away all of the information to Stryker. Storm's reaction to me, and her dialogue before such revelation showcased some tension to me. Inside the dam, when planning their course of action, there was tension from Jean "Not without us!", and even from Mystique, rolling her eyes when Storm became worried about the children. Also, there was the tension between Wolverine and Magneto when Wolverine wanted to go into the spillway himself. Surely, Magneto would not reply in such a condescending way to someone such as Mystique with whom he had no tension.

The alliances made in X2 were handled well. The alliances made in X-Men: The Last Stand were not. At least not on the prison truck. Considering that we see a speech from Magneto about his ideals and his goals in the church, Callisto and the Morlocks joining up with him does not seem forced. But Multiple Man and Juggernaut blindly joining the Brotherhood does seem forced.

Again, there is no comparrison between the 2.

 

[BMM]

...and even from Mystique, rolling her eyes when Storm became worried about the children. Also, there was the tension between Wolverine and Magneto when Wolverine wanted to go into the spillway himself. Surely, Magneto would not reply in such a condescending way to someone such as Mystique with whom he had no tension.

Haha. I think that's one of my favorite scenes featuring Mystique. She comes off as such a b**** to Storm when Storm asks if they can shut down Cerebro from the control room. Romijn's delivery is great. I believe the writers/producers even make note of it on the DVD commentary.

 

[X-Maniac]

Wolverine knew where Alkali Lake was, yes, but he did not know of the base there. Nobody knew where Stryker's base was at, except Nightcrawler, subconciously, because it was in his memory. His memory was not wiped like Wolverine's was. So yea, Nightcrawler was, in fact, needed.

Magneto and Mystique were needed because they were the ones who knew of Stryker's plans. They knew that Stryker was the one setting up this global threat, and it was only when presented with the information that Magneto and Mystique had aquired that the X-Men had anything that they could act on.

Both parties needed each other.

As far as tensions, I felt some tensions. Personally, Rogue was the only one that Magneto tried to kill, and he and Mystique made a joke about it. Rogue isn't as mature or professional as Storm, Jean, Wolverine, etc... and she gets set off easier, being a teenager. I'm sure you know all about that, having been a teenager yourself, as we all have been.

And I did feel some tensions. Particularly when Magneto explains that he gave away all of the information to Stryker. Storm's reaction to me, and her dialogue before such revelation showcased some tension to me. Inside the dam, when planning their course of action, there was tension from Jean "Not without us!", and even from Mystique, rolling her eyes when Storm became worried about the children. Also, there was the tension between Wolverine and Magneto when Wolverine wanted to go into the spillway himself. Surely, Magneto would not reply in such a condescending way to someone such as Mystique with whom he had no tension.

The alliances made in X2 were handled well. The alliances made in X-Men: The Last Stand were not. At least not on the prison truck. Considering that we see a speech from Magneto about his ideals and his goals in the church, Callisto and the Morlocks joining up with him does not seem forced. But Multiple Man and Juggernaut blindly joining the Brotherhood does seem forced.

Again, there is no comparrison between the 2.

Well, I’d expect more little moments of tension (like you mention) after they joined forces, as these were people from opposite sides completely. Whereas MM and Juggs were villains just like the Brrotherhood. It’s the moment of their joining forces I’m referring to, the moment where they agree they must work together for a common cause. I don’t recall any dialogue ibn X2 where, for instance, Wolverine said ‘You’re not suggesting that we team up? After what this guy tried to do to Rogue, to all of us.” then perhaps Jean ‘We’re going to need all the help and information we can get.” Storm ‘I don’t like it any more than the rest of you, but it looks like our best shot.” However, I suppose the implication is that he had just saved their lives and that they therefore owed him some trust/respect/gratitude. This applies in some way to Magneto’s actions in freeing MM and Juggs, though the scene was perhaps a little hurried/unexplored.

 

[Fried Gold]

This thread =

 

[Theweepeople]

This is very amusing. So Xavier thought it was necessary to limit the power of a mutant who had no intentions to hurt herself and others but, didn't think it was necessary to limit the powers of a mutant who had the intentions to hurt people?

 

[Spider-Fan83]

This is very amusing. So Xavier thought it was necessary to limit the power of a mutant who had no intentions to hurt herself and others but, didn't think it was necessary to limit the powers of a mutant who had the intentions to hurt people?

in assuming, your talking about Jean and Magneto?
Jeans powers were limited for her own good (or atleast what he felt was necessary at the time), they were to much for her to handle safely without harming her self of others, unintentionally
where magnetos intention to hurt others was not seen by Xavier in time, and he developed a way, to not be controlled or limited by him, with his helmet, when his intentions turn violent, (as well as, they had a history together, and he believed that Magneto still had good in him, he was always looking for some hope in him to changing his ways on his own) also, magnetos powers is not what made him dangerous, it was his actions (gained with his powers he is more of a physical threat)

just my thought's on it